My Neighbor Shot My Seat Covers! - Page 3 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 09-18-2009, 11:40 AM   #61
Jeeper
 
05GT-O.C.D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,415
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal147 View Post
Glad no one was injured or killed. The perp is a dumbass.


If you need to shoot, shoot to kill.

Unless you're in front of the jury, in which case you shoot to stop the threat. You're correct though, you shoot to kill, not shoot to injure.

__________________
When my time comes, mix my ashes with gunpowder encased in brass, point me towards murderer's and pedophile's and let me fly.

(: ˇ ɹǝʌo ǝɯ 11oɹ ...sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
05GT-O.C.D. is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 11:52 AM   #62
Jeeper
 
mrcarcrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Midland/Odessa, TX
Posts: 3,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05GT-O.C.D. View Post
Unless you're in front of the jury, in which case you shoot to stop the threat. You're correct though, you shoot to kill, not shoot to injure.
Couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05GT-O.C.D. View Post
^^This. G26 is also my carry weapon, Ruger LCP depending on dress. Wife's home defense gun is the Ruger GP100 w/ .38spcls.

What's your take on the LCP? My First attempt at a carry gun was a Keltec baby 9mm...can't remember the model. but it was a piece of crap, shot way off. then I bought the G26 (I'm a scrawny bastard, so I have to carry it with larger clothing). Fantastic gun. I'm a Ruger Fan (esp their 22's.) and was curious of the LCP, and LCR. Doubt they do it better than what I already have (the primary reason I haven't bought one for shits'n'giggles)

Home defense for me is FN TPS 12 gauge. loaded with buckshot and a surefire weapon light.

mrcarcrazy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 12:24 PM   #63
Jeeper
 
Joe Dirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 1,075
I have a LCP that I carry as a backup and off-duty when I don't feel like carrying something bigger. It's a Oh Shi$ gun. Meaning last chance, contact shot to the eyeball, as I run away! I carry it when I'm out in shorts and a T-shirt and would just leave a big gun at home. It works, but remember it is just a .380. I wouldn't want to engage with someone unless I had no other options. The small size is great. I'll say it again, not a defense gun- an Oh Shi$ gun!
__________________
2013 Wrangler 2D, 3.6L, Automatic, 3.73 Gears, Limited slip in the rear, Teraflex 2" lift, 285/75/16 tires, LOD bumper & 8K winch, 2M Ham radio.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf- George Orwell
Joe Dirt is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 12:51 PM   #64
Jeeper
 
05GT-O.C.D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,415
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarcrazy View Post
Couldn't agree more.



What's your take on the LCP? My First attempt at a carry gun was a Keltec baby 9mm...can't remember the model. but it was a piece of crap, shot way off. then I bought the G26 (I'm a scrawny bastard, so I have to carry it with larger clothing). Fantastic gun. I'm a Ruger Fan (esp their 22's.) and was curious of the LCP, and LCR. Doubt they do it better than what I already have (the primary reason I haven't bought one for shits'n'giggles)

Home defense for me is FN TPS 12 gauge. loaded with buckshot and a surefire weapon light.
LCP is a great little gun. KelTec makes a very similar pistol, but I also had the baby KelTec 9mm and also did not like it. Harsh, poor accuracy even from a small gun, and jammed. (The G26 is the opposite ) So, I didn't get the KelTec .380 since I had the bad experience w/ the 9mm. As stated, the LCP is a great gun to have with you for times when you would otherwise be unarmed. It takes a little learning to shoot, as compared to the G26 it shoots a little low so you'll need some range time to know your grip. Windage is very good for such a small gun. Recoil on the LCP .380 is similar in feel to the G26 9mm. If you can carry the G26, great, but if not the LCP is much better than a knife.
__________________
When my time comes, mix my ashes with gunpowder encased in brass, point me towards murderer's and pedophile's and let me fly.

(: ˇ ɹǝʌo ǝɯ 11oɹ ...sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
05GT-O.C.D. is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 02:01 PM   #65
Jeeper
 
Loic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: LAS VEGAS
Posts: 794
i used to own a Ruger PK89, it was a nice gun, grip was a little large and the gun heavy, but pretty accurate.
Loic is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 05:05 PM   #66
Jeeper
 
SoCal147's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: High Desert of SoCal
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05GT-O.C.D. View Post
Unless you're in front of the jury, in which case you shoot to stop the threat. You're correct though, you shoot to kill, not shoot to injure.
You are correct. The use of deadly force is just that.
__________________
White 2009 Rubicon
Rock Krawler JK 3.5" Mid Arm Kit w/ Bilstein 5100's Not Yet Installed - M.O.R.E. 1" BL - M.O.R.E. Front Bumper - SmittyBlit Rear Bumper/Carrier - M.O.R.E. Evap Skid - Uniden 510 Kit fm RightChannelRadio
SoCal147 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 07:16 PM   #67
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
well i dont know about u, but if i shot somebody around here chances are i wont be a hero.i'll be thrown in jail regardless of who did what. that's why i was thinking rock salt, cause i gotta imagine that would put u down in close range. and would hurt like a m@&^er f&%ker with the salt in ur skin.
__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 09:32 PM   #68
Jeeper
 
Schmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by morphious View Post
well i dont know about u, but if i shot somebody around here chances are i wont be a hero.i'll be thrown in jail regardless of who did what. that's why i was thinking rock salt, cause i gotta imagine that would put u down in close range. and would hurt like a m@&^er f&%ker with the salt in ur skin.

Dead = one less witness.
__________________
Bite the hand that feeds you . . . you've had more than enough to eat already.
Schmo is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 09:41 PM   #69
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarcrazy View Post
Uhh. I can say first hand that at close range with a decent choke, birdshot can kill a human....quite easily actually. Being from the ER I've seen it. Box o truth aint got shit on first hand experience from Emergency room.
I didn't say bird shot couldn't kill a human. I'm saying it's effectiveness at stopping the threat is considerably lower than other options available.
Bird shot may kill a man, but then again, as you point out in your next post, so can a pellet gun, as long as you hit just the right spot.
If I'm in a situation where I feel the need to employ a firearm then I'm in a situation where the threat needs to be stopped as quickly as possible. I don't want the intruder to have time to fire back or rush me with a knife, I want him stopped. It takes a fraction of a second for the intruder to retaliate but it can take quite awhile to bleed out.

The box of truth has quite a bit of info regarding over penetration of walls with various rounds, and a fairly good discussion of the effectiveness of bird shot but it's certainly not the only website with that information available.

I'm just offering my opinion based on a quite a bit of reading as well as first hand experience as a fireman and then as a truck driver at accident scenes witnessing the amount of damage the human body can sustain and still be functional.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-18-2009, 10:17 PM   #70
Jeeper
 
sgnellett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under a sheet of ice, you know, from Global Warming!
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
I didn't say bird shot couldn't kill a human. I'm saying it's effectiveness at stopping the threat is considerably lower than other options available.
Bird shot may kill a man, but then again, as you point out in your next post, so can a pellet gun, as long as you hit just the right spot.
If I'm in a situation where I feel the need to employ a firearm then I'm in a situation where the threat needs to be stopped as quickly as possible. I don't want the intruder to have time to fire back or rush me with a knife, I want him stopped. It takes a fraction of a second for the intruder to retaliate but it can take quite awhile to bleed out.

The box of truth has quite a bit of info regarding over penetration of walls with various rounds, and a fairly good discussion of the effectiveness of bird shot but it's certainly not the only website with that information available.

I'm just offering my opinion based on a quite a bit of reading as well as first hand experience as a fireman and then as a truck driver at accident scenes witnessing the amount of damage the human body can sustain and still be functional.
Skeet, we just bought a house that we plan to tear down and I have been really wanting to "experiment" on the interior, see what the 870 would do to the walls, floors, etc before it comes down. Something tells me the local cops won't see the scientific value of such activities..
__________________
SGNellett, 02 TJ "LUCY" 3" BDS w/ quick disco's, 33x12.5x15's on Chrome Steel Tailgunners, K&N CAI, Tomkens front & rear w/ swing away tire carrier

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
And the most important safety, I never put my booger hook on the bang switch unless I'm ready to fire.
sgnellett is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-19-2009, 09:37 PM   #71
Jeeper
 
KicknJeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: with 2 Jeeps in the garage...
Posts: 557
Images: 2
Send a message via Yahoo to KicknJeep
Around her that would probably (more than likely) land the idiot a reckless endangerment charge. What a tool.....
__________________
99 Solar Yellow Sport

1976 CJ two seater-
[IMG]http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...0613092028.jpg[/IMG]
KicknJeep is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-20-2009, 01:21 PM   #72
Genius!

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
Coyote_94YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 20,798
Send a message via ICQ to Coyote_94YJ Send a message via Yahoo to Coyote_94YJ
I agree with Lev's post. The guy must feel like an idiot. Although that doesn't excuse him from not checking to make sure he didn't hit anyone. I don't fault the guy too much for the accidental discharge. He should have made sure everything was OK.

There's a saying I learned in a safety class. There are 2 kinds of gun owners, ones who have had an accidental discharge and one who have not had an accidental discharge....yet!
Coyote_94YJ is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-20-2009, 10:38 PM   #73
Jeeper
 
chezuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Anywhere I roam
Posts: 830
There are 2 types of discharges, intentional and negligent. There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge"
__________________
Are you born to resist, or be abused?

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL10.../383258900.jpg
chezuki is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-20-2009, 10:53 PM   #74
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezuki View Post
There are 2 types of discharges, intentional and negligent. There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge"
Not even "accidental" that time I drank 6 schlitz, ate a bean burrito and thought I was just gonna pass a little gas.

I mean, I thought it was "accidental".

I surely didn't do it on purpose!!
stevens243 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-20-2009, 11:10 PM   #75
Jeeper
 
Joe Dirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 1,075
Having an accidental discharge is like being a drunk driver. It didn't just happen! It happened because you were being an idiot...
__________________
2013 Wrangler 2D, 3.6L, Automatic, 3.73 Gears, Limited slip in the rear, Teraflex 2" lift, 285/75/16 tires, LOD bumper & 8K winch, 2M Ham radio.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf- George Orwell
Joe Dirt is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 12:53 AM   #76
Genius!

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
Coyote_94YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 20,798
Send a message via ICQ to Coyote_94YJ Send a message via Yahoo to Coyote_94YJ
Well, dang. You guys are no fun!
Coyote_94YJ is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 01:04 AM   #77
Jeeper
 
Levinoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Jeffersontown
Posts: 5,540
Being a trained soldier makes it even worse.
__________________

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present."
Levinoss is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 09:42 AM   #78
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
yeah i have to agree why was he screwing with a loaded gun inside like that. i could see if u live in a bad part of a city. and u were worried but still i dont think i would keep one chambered. i'd be curious to find out what exactly caused the discharge
__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 09:48 AM   #79
Jeeper
 
mrcarcrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Midland/Odessa, TX
Posts: 3,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezuki View Post
there are 2 types of discharges, intentional and negligent. There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge"
+465,712,523,324. (i'm agreeing)
mrcarcrazy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 09:50 AM   #80
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
huh
__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 09:59 AM   #81
Jeeper
 
mrcarcrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Midland/Odessa, TX
Posts: 3,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
I didn't say bird shot couldn't kill a human. I'm saying it's effectiveness at stopping the threat is considerably lower than other options available.
Bird shot may kill a man, but then again, as you point out in your next post, so can a pellet gun, as long as you hit just the right spot.
If I'm in a situation where I feel the need to employ a firearm then I'm in a situation where the threat needs to be stopped as quickly as possible. I don't want the intruder to have time to fire back or rush me with a knife, I want him stopped. It takes a fraction of a second for the intruder to retaliate but it can take quite awhile to bleed out.

The box of truth has quite a bit of info regarding over penetration of walls with various rounds, and a fairly good discussion of the effectiveness of bird shot but it's certainly not the only website with that information available.

I'm just offering my opinion based on a quite a bit of reading as well as first hand experience as a fireman and then as a truck driver at accident scenes witnessing the amount of damage the human body can sustain and still be functional.
My point is purely That at the distance you will find an intruder in most apartments, and houses is 10-20ft. At this range, bird shot will very likely kill the intruder. (aka stop the threat) Where as many people will miss with a handgun. Shooting in combat and other high stress environments causes many "skilled marksmen" to miss. But as I stated before I use 00 Buck because I know I can hit them, and I live alone.

I'm personally more concerned with someone missing and killing a family member, or neighbor. Because another thing that most people do is empty the magazine trying to stop the threat. Many of said shots don't hit intended target...then you have a situation like the one that started this thread...except it could have a dead kid in it. And that bothers me.

Morphious, check your local laws around here, shooting someone with a shotgun full of rock salt is still assault with a deadly weapon....So I'd suggest against that. If you need a gun, you NEED a gun.
mrcarcrazy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 11:18 AM   #82
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
i guess i was worried more about the murder charge then assault
__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 12:44 PM   #83
Jeeper
 
Levinoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Jeffersontown
Posts: 5,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by morphious View Post
yeah i have to agree why was he screwing with a loaded gun inside like that. i could see if u live in a bad part of a city. and u were worried but still i dont think i would keep one chambered. i'd be curious to find out what exactly caused the discharge
Yea, that would clear up a few questions.
__________________

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present."
Levinoss is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 04:31 PM   #84
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by morphious View Post
yeah i have to agree why was he screwing with a loaded gun inside like that. i could see if u live in a bad part of a city. and u were worried but still i dont think i would keep one chambered. i'd be curious to find out what exactly caused the discharge
I keep one chambered at all times. Good part, bad part doesn't make a difference, if you need your gun you likely will have very little time to get it ready to go, and chambering a round can give away your position.

The "rack the slide scares em away" argument assumes the bad guy is predisposed to run if confronted while invading your occupied home. If he isn't then you've just given away tactical advantage. You've just given away your position, and the fact that you're armed.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 04:36 PM   #85
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
i'm just really amazed that u dont just start laying motion trip claymores around the perimeter could be affective would work on intruders and relatives u dont like
__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 04:43 PM   #86
Hacks off Parts while Lit
 
whitebuffalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Sandhills of South Texas
Posts: 2,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by morphious View Post
i'm just really amazed that u dont just start laying motion trip claymores around the perimeter could be affective would work on intruders and relatives u dont like
wait until you've needed to defend yourself once and then make fun of being prepared
__________________
'90 YJ, ford 8.8, SOA, lincoln front, aussie rear, 4.88s, swampers.
whitebuffalo is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 04:56 PM   #87
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
i don't blame u for being prepared but i just wouldn't keep a round chambered. that is asking for some thing to happen that's all I'm saying.the claymore thing was just a joke,although i could make a setup in my yard that would get anything. i thought it out i get bored very easily. would make an ok zombie defense to and yes i have a emergency zombie escape plan. don't ask
__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 05:07 PM   #88
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
I carry a 1911 .45ACP. It has three very good safeties. It has a grip safety that has to be depressed to fire. It has a manual safety that has to be switched off to fire. And the most important safety, I never put my booger hook on the bang switch unless I'm ready to fire.

If you follow the rules of safety and you keep your firearm well maintained you won't have a problem.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 06:02 PM   #89
Jeeper
 
05GT-O.C.D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,415
Keeping a round in the chamber is NOT asking for something to happen. Contrary to some people's belief, guns don't just magically go off. If they were to go off when dropped, then w/ any modern firearm (that I'm aware of) it would mean the gun is defective. They don't go off unless the trigger is pulled.
So, my question to the 'don't chamber a round' crowd is - would you only load 5 shots in a six shot revolver?
Oh, and morphious - none of this is directed towards you. I'm just sick of people I know who are ignorant on guns, yet think they are able to tell other people how to handle theirs.
__________________
When my time comes, mix my ashes with gunpowder encased in brass, point me towards murderer's and pedophile's and let me fly.

(: ˇ ɹǝʌo ǝɯ 11oɹ ...sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
05GT-O.C.D. is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 09-21-2009, 11:34 PM   #90
after birthday glow
 
morphious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,963
Images: 1
its cool i dont care what any one does its ur stuff and ur life. i just get sketchy about leaving it chambered i never want to be this retard and have my gun shoot my neighbors house. and on that note i brought this up at work yesterday and a girl their said her husband did the same thing.and shot through his floor.

__________________
some say why i say
its a jeep thing u wouldn't understand
morphious is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seat Covers T-BONE N BIXBY TJ General Discussion Forum 36 08-31-2009 02:39 AM
Seat covers - whatcha runnin? erickpl TJ General Discussion Forum 27 07-23-2007 04:17 PM
Neoprene Seat Covers jlsjeepin General Jeep Discussion 5 04-02-2007 11:12 AM
Neoprene Seat Covers (Plug) Scooby TJ General Discussion Forum 5 02-14-2007 12:42 PM
OEM seat covers? bchamberlin TJ General Discussion Forum 3 01-12-2006 09:25 PM


» Rates
Get low rates on auto insurance in Canada!

» Network Links
»Jeep Parts
» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:31 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC