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Old 04-22-2009, 10:47 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jpdocdave View Post
i refer to a previous statement quoted below.

It's not about hurting terrorist's feelings. It's about the information derived from torture is not credible. You slide bamboo under my fingernails and I'll tell you the sky is green even though I know for a fact it appears blue. Anything to make it stop. There are better ways to gather information. Put a bullet in their brains and be done with it. Torture is a waste of time and energy.

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Old 04-22-2009, 10:49 PM   #32
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It's not about hurting terrorist's feelings. It's about the information derived from torture is not credible. You slide bamboo under my fingernails and I'll tell you the sky is green even though I know for a fact it appears blue. Anything to make it stop. There are better ways to gather information. Put a bullet in their brains and be done with it. Torture is a waste of time and energy.
we both know the sarcasm that you are comenting on in your first sentence.

and i'll agree with the rest, but that is so not an option and we all know it.

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Old 04-22-2009, 10:51 PM   #33
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Many would disagree with that assertion.
obviously... that is the reason this is such a debate, of course I'm sure many would dissagree with alot of my opinions, that is why I said " I guess it depends on what you consider torture, I don't think the..."
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:56 PM   #34
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we both know the sarcasm that you are comenting on in your first sentence.

and i'll agree with the rest, but that is so not an option and we all know it.

We don't all know that and it's a more viable option than wasting time and money on them. Had it been done in the first place, there wouldn't be an issue. And likely, no one would have said a word.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:00 PM   #35
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and i do wanna assert that my direction of this thread was immediately changed, but thats ok

my problem is obama making the moves he did, causing more internal strife in our country, releasing memos, and speaking of bringing charges against hi ranking officials, and even stating george bush isn't above the law. that is what our country needs right now, this is a main priority to deal with.

what we have been discussing are issues that are important, but obama taking the steps he just did is what bothers me. he seems more interested in closing guantamino bay, bringing those prisoners on our soil, and making his worldwide apology tour, making our country look like panzies, and causing problems with this "torture" as a pr stunt, making others look bad to make himself feel better. than really doing what our country needs to benefit our own citizens, and the law abiding productive ones i might add, instead of focusing on the ones on welfare and so on.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:02 PM   #36
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We don't all know that and it's a more viable option than wasting time and money on them. Had it been done in the first place, there wouldn't be an issue. And likely, no one would have said a word.
i'm really not against it, if you look at my stance on the whole thing here. but once anyone got a hold of information regarding actions such as that it would be over. thats not an option, whats next after that, hollacaust?

and then we got the whole judge, jury, executioner thing going on to.
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:38 AM   #37
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Yeah Dave, too bad Hitler made being a mass murderer such a nasty idea.

No sense in appling the same ideal to torture.
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:56 AM   #38
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Godwin's Law.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:00 AM   #39
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touche'

(was it me, or Dave)?
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:14 AM   #40
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touche'

(was it me, or Dave)?
It was Dave, but someone was going to mention Nazis in one form or another. It's inevitable even when not warranted. My statement was meant to sound incredibly harsh. Callous. Unfeeling.

We need to get back to the higher standard we held for this country. That includes treating our prisoners with a certain level of dignity and humanity. If we're not going to do that, we're no better than those who would see us dead. That said, there is no way I believe in criminal prosecution for those involved.

As for President Obama focusing on the wrong things. Media reports don't reflect what's going on in the White House. They are merely whispers of rumors of what's going on. A fly on the wall knows more than us.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:24 AM   #41
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I figured the first part and 100% agree on the 2nd.

Mostly, our (American's) issue is that we don't want to lead anymore. We want to tough guy our way thru any problems we encounter.

What bothers me is the unbelievable position the president is in. Needs to change the course but doesn't want to try and jail the worker bees following the previous direction they were under. Can't make the nutso's on the right happy nor can he make the nutso's on the left happy.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:58 AM   #42
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I really brought up the Nazis in a round about way. It was they who used torture freely and figured out that it generated all sorts of false confessions. We were interested enough in their findings after WWII to bring some of them into our fold and their data with them.

I think Steven makes very good points.

Also, I’m looking around for the details. I suspect Obama is not initiating an investigation but that it has come from somewhere else and he would be in the position of allowing it to proceed or specifically stopping it?

Don’t we have a load of pardons coming down the pipeline?
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:11 AM   #43
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As for President Obama focusing on the wrong things. Media reports don't reflect what's going on in the White House. They are merely whispers of rumors of what's going on. A fly on the wall knows more than us.
how is this the case for obama's white house, but the media preached gospel truth when bush was president?
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:27 AM   #44
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how is this the case for obama's white house, but the media preached gospel truth when bush was president?

Are you adding words to my posts, Dave? The media has NEVER preached the truth. Back in the day, they hid details, didn't tell what they new. Now, they not only spill every little thing they can find, but they twist it up and add untruths.

I think every President has dealt with this, including President Bush.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:29 AM   #45
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And I suspect history will show they were extremely easy on Bush.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:32 AM   #46
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I don't believe the media is easy on anyone who manages to end up in it's clutches.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:39 AM   #47
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Right, but there is also the timing of the trend of ending foreign correspondents. Newspapers no longer can finance real investigative journalism and can’t support feet on the ground on location. This means they all drink from the same AP well. Combine that with a really scary terrorist attack and you have a nearly complete abdication of any responsibility to report critically on what was going on. Many news rooms were completely compliant with requests to not report information that they had, more so, I believe, than at any other moment in history. But then most news gathering organizations are owned by the same conservative-leaning media mogul.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:45 AM   #48
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Feet on the ground as you say never lead to truth in journalism. It lead to which angle can I use to create a story. Both figuratively and literally. (In a hurry, gotta motor)
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:53 AM   #49
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Well from a philosophical standpoint objectivity and truth are slippery, but when you have competing news organizations with competing reporters who are watching events and collaborating with different contacts you get a range of impressions.

When everyone rips of the same AP wire, that has already been washed by our intelligence organizations, you get something completely different. Bush took office as much of this wash out was taking place, and blatant conflicts of interest were being cemented by corporate interests owning news organizations.
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:36 PM   #50
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I’m not a moralist. One very big issue is that in situations where open ended torture has been used the information obtained has been largely false. I would like to see some separation between a populist desire to punish people who we trust are guilty because we have been told there is reason to suspect, and real evidence regarding obtaining credible information. It appears that the ability of the system to absorb, prioritize and act on the incoming information we have is a much larger issue than splitting hairs over waterboarding, which is not the lighting rod buzz word that evokes an opinion from nearly everyone.

CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief


Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles.
(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)

This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.

“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”


A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.
Information gained solely from interrogations may be unreliable but other methods may then be employed to verify that information.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:00 PM   #51
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Check the dates:

Fact Sheet: Keeping America Safe From Attack

Quote:
In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles.
Press Briefing on the West Coast Terrorist Plot by Frances Fragos Townsend, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism

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The cell leader was arrested in February of 2002, and as we begin -- at that point, the other members of the cell believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward. You'll recall that KSM was then arrested in April of 2003 -- or was it March -- I'm sorry, March of 2003.
So it appears that the gave information about a plot that had been canceled because it had previously been discovered by other means.

Now I am not making a case against waterboarding. But to say that waterboarding prevented this specific incident does not appear to be correct.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:17 PM   #52
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Well from a philosophical standpoint objectivity and truth are slippery, but when you have competing news organizations with competing reporters who are watching events and collaborating with different contacts you get a range of impressions.

When everyone rips of the same AP wire, that has already been washed by our intelligence organizations, you get something completely different. Bush took office as much of this wash out was taking place, and blatant conflicts of interest were being cemented by corporate interests owning news organizations.
You are correct. When we all drink from the same poisoned well, our fates are the same. It's a shame really. Being a legit journalist used to mean something. But now, they out and out lie for ratings, creating stories from thin air... and simple burn pits are made into huge Marine battles with casualties being evac-d by chopper.
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:25 PM   #53
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Interesting, wonder why they would be lying to themselves, or did somebody fudge the dates?.

I'm not sure where I come down on water boarding, or torture of any type for that matter. I was all for it till Amy pointed out that if we allow it for others what's to stop them from using it on Americans?
I still can't say I'm against it because if there was a threat to my family and I had hold of a person that I believed could provide useful information that would save them I would do whatever it took to get that info.
I also look to history and see no examples of any enemy treating our people with anywhere near the care we give theirs.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:03 PM   #54
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Interesting, wonder why they would be lying to themselves, or did somebody fudge the dates?
Could be they have fallen into their own pit of disinformation.

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I'm not sure where I come down on water boarding, or torture of any type for that matter. I was all for it till Amy pointed out that if we allow it for others what's to stop them from using it on Americans?
I still can't say I'm against it because if there was a threat to my family and I had hold of a person that I believed could provide useful information that would save them I would do whatever it took to get that info.
I also look to history and see no examples of any enemy treating our people with anywhere near the care we give theirs.
Well this is one big rub for me about the “Bush Administration”—the attempt to find legal precedent and legitimize activities that have always been black bag jobs. If activities have to be financed off the books and kept secret then there is a built in prohibition, and in the future it will remain difficult and dangerous to break the law or operate in grey areas. To me this is OK. That way we have not officially done anything and we can claim the moral high ground whether we deserve it or not. When all this crap gets put on the books you will have American soldiers being waterboarded and worse simply because we have broadcast the how-to manual and gone through the steps to make it legit.

Historically we have had our soldiers released after a conflict and in some cases they were fed and given minimal care, even though the examples of abuse are also many. Pre-Geneva I suspect the take no prisoners style of war was much more common, along with rape to contaminate the gene pool and a hundred other proud human strategies of domination.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:23 PM   #55
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It is true, but it also applies to us as well. That is why international law and laws like Habeas Corpus are so interesting—they represent an effort of disparate cultures to come together in acceptance of shared values. The nature/nurture question may never be understood in a way that is definitive, but there is some chance we can deconstruct religion enough on a global scale to realize we are simply a species on a rock in space and that there may be some value in attempting to not end the experiment prematurely by our own hand.

It is not lost on me that many religious universities in our own country do not teach anthropology specifically because they do not want students to understand that morality is cultural rather than a static law handed down from above. Even with an understanding of cultural and moral relativism there remain concepts and values that are common—value of life is one of them even if the only lives that count are the lives of your own tribe.

(No offense to the believers.)
I'm a little late but here goes. To teach people basic things in school is one thing, but it takes an "act of god" to change the ideas that are handed down through generations. Especially those based on Hate and religion. Also it doesn't help that the majority of people today have the mind set "I'm going to get you before you get me."

Torture has been part of the world from the beginning of time. Laws are good but many people still believe "it isn't illegal until you get caught." Laws only affect law abiding people. Terrorists have the mindset that the end justifies the means. That means that they will torture anyone, blow up your house, kill your family, and cut your head off if it helped their cause.

Giving these terrorists a legal voice in a civilian court is a joke. Send them to a military tribunal and judge then by their own laws. That's more then they are given in their own countries.

We have already given the majority of our jobs, money, and land to foreign countries. We better wake up before we give the rest away in the name of PC and "lets not hurt the feelings of the people trying to kills us" mentality.

If my grammar and spelling is bad, I am sorry. A lot to do and in a hurry.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:47 PM   #56
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. But then most news gathering organizations are owned by the same conservative-leaning media mogul.

what???

evidantly you aren't spending hours sifting through the overwhelming media that is exactly the opposite of what you just stated.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:25 PM   #57
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Who is Rupert Murdoch?

Typically, journalists are trained to get two sides of a story. In certain political climates telling any side other than a specifically biased side that is manufactured by government and business interests is considered liberal. My policy is to know both sides in hopes of finding a third, fourth and fifth opinion.

Listen to Alex Jones bash Obama for his gun control agenda.

If you have time to blow…

What is that? Is he a liberal or a conservative? If you find someone that does not specifically follow a party line and have their speaking points set to the democratic or republican line of the day you probably have someone worth listening to, even if you don't like it or believe it.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:30 PM   #58
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still doesn't change the fact that the large majority of news reporting agencies, and all of hollywood is liberal, and even public schools. and sadly a majority of americans get their "facts" soully from these sources.

not to start another discussion, but my wife is furthering her education at our local comunity college. it is unbelievable what the college professors are doing in the classroom. liberal agendas that have absolutey nothing to do with the coarse subject are where 90% of the class time is spent. couple examples: gay marriage, homosexuality, obama/bush=bash bush praise obama, prostitution explicit discussions on sex and sexuality. and most of the students are 18-21 yr old kids, that have had no thoughts of their own, and are being impressioned and indoctrinated by it.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:34 PM   #59
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^ sry to say, but you said it—community college.

Totally off topic, but I can’t stop laughing…

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Old 04-23-2009, 04:46 PM   #60
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Totally off topic, but I can’t stop laughing…

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Holy CRAP!

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OMG another Obama thread... tiny terror Off-Topic 30 03-11-2009 08:44 AM
Obama repairs foriegn relations skeeter Off-Topic 16 03-10-2009 02:22 PM
Obama Helps the Poor jupiterboy Off-Topic 7 03-04-2009 08:01 PM
Obama Man Can kg4kpg Off-Topic 0 03-05-2008 07:54 PM



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