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Old 12-09-2013, 05:23 PM   #301
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1. 25% of my gross income is not going to insurance, it is my total out of pocket each year (icluding insurance premiums and treatment). 2. That is the catch22 of the situation. Change jobs (without AHCA), and then a 1 year waiting period on pre-existing conditions. That single thing would bankrupt my family. I have been insulin dependent for 40 of my 45 years. Diabetes care is by far the greatest portion of my medical expenses. And I have almost no complications to require extra treatment for. I have what I, and most others, would consider good insurance with resonable premiums. 60% of this country is one hospital visit away from bankruptcy. The AHCA does not address that. Single payer would, but then you hear "oh, socialism." People point out Canada and UK as what is wrong with single payer, but ignore the overwhelming results in the netherlands and the scandanavian countries, etc.
The 60% is a an over statement. Do you have data to back that up?

I have never worked a job where there was ever a pre existing condition issue. Any new job I have ever taken I was covered on day 1. We have 40k employees and will cover anyone for anything day one.

One solution would be to require employers to maintain that standard BUT it's completely idiotic to allow people to come in and out of a system if they are sick or not.

We have plenty of problems with the status quo. Single payer solves some issues and creates others.

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:28 PM   #302
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The problem with single payer is...look at our government. You trust these people to do it right? Look at social security, a simple socialist system. It would have worked fine, but its nearly bankrupt now, because of idiots using its funds for other things illegally. Infact, what happens when someone dies suddenly before theyre 65, and has not used any disability benefits? What happens when someone dies after only being retired a few years? How many people die at 70? 75? I guess the money they paid in vanishes. Single payer would make the gov think they have the right to force all sorts of bs health regulations on us. Its bad enough they have seatbelt laws and a ban on large cokes in a certain city. And whats up with the recent fda trans fat ban? Wtf? Im a libertarian, as were the founding fathers.
I don't think the libertarians have a position against seat belt laws. I am a card carrying Libertarian and the law is perfectly acceptable to me as it is a very reasonable way to protect the common good. Think about it....you could make a simple mistake and have a minor accident where it's is your fault. The other driver is killed because they did not wear a seat belt. As such, you get charged for manslaughter.

Libertarians still believe in proper reasonable controls.

But that's another subject.....sorry.

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:35 PM   #303
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No, I really do not trust anyone right now.




Some of this is local gov't instead of federal. I realize that the general populous is concerned about the scope of the federal gov't. Has the FDA over stepped their bounds? Yes. Has the Congress betrayed its duty to the constitution? Yes. Is controlling health care costs in the best interest of the country, and its citizens? YES.



At heart, I am a libertarian as well, but see the countries quality of living going down the shitter due to excessive health care costs.
I agree. But more regulation isnt going to help it, unless its to regulate healthcare procedure costs down.

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The American people have forgotten the blessings of liberty and haven't experienced the hell of government out of control. They will learn the hard way, because America has gotten stupider on the whole.
yup...

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I don't think the libertarians have a position against seat belt laws. I am a card carrying Libertarian and the law is perfectly acceptable to me as it is a very reasonable way to protect the common good. Think about it....you could make a simple mistake and have a minor accident where it's is your fault. The other driver is killed because they did not wear a seat belt. As such, you get charged for manslaughter.

Libertarians still believe in proper reasonable controls.

But that's another subject.....sorry.
Theres a difference between a libertarian and a Libertarian. Libertarian is a party, libertarian is a belief. Im both, but....

I am against accidents being crimes. Theyre accidents and should be dealt as such.

I have the right to wear or not wear a seatbelt..... it is my life and nobody elses. I am a libertarian and am against seatbelt laws, so stop speaking for all of us please.

And obviously of course the founding fathers didnt join the Libertarian party.......
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:26 PM   #304
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Yes. Is controlling health care costs in the best interest of the country, and its citizens? YES.
I agree. The U.S. is supposedly the richest nation in the world, and one of the few developed nations without universal health care. I think the problem is greed, but its also the reason for our success as an entrepreneurial nation.

Some might say the problem is fear, but I disagree.

Are we really afraid of giving someone the ability to take care of us if we are sick, and unable to afford extended health care? What happens when we might need a nursing home in our old age? I visited, sang, and ministered to a Nursing Home this past weekend and it was sad. It was sad because I know that, if I am lucky, I will be that old someday, and I may need that sort of help. I really smiled at those people because no matter how old they are, they are still alive and cherishing life. And, I still, and hopefully will always, cherish life too. Therefore, I cherished those people, because hopefully, they will be me someday, although I hope that I won't need a nursing home.

I guess we could just put all the poor people out of their misery when they get really sick or old, but that seems a bit harsh. We are still a loving nation, aren't we?

Nearly the entire developed world has universal health care, from Europe to the Asian powerhouses to South America's southern cone to the Anglophone states of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.

The handful of developing countries that provide universal access to health care include oil-rich Saudi Arabia and Oman, Latin success story Costa Rica, Kyrgyzstan, and, famously, Cuba, among a few others.

Why are we so far behind, the other developed and even developing countries, in taking care of the health of our citizens?
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:35 PM   #305
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here we go boys
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:27 PM   #306
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What I said was that I am not aware of a position that party has against belts. You were the one that made the connection, not me.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:32 PM   #307
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I agree. The U.S. is supposedly the richest nation in the world, and one of the few developed nations without universal health care. I think the problem is greed, but its also the reason for our success as an entrepreneurial nation. Some might say the problem is fear, but I disagree. Are we really afraid of giving someone the ability to take care of us if we are sick, and unable to afford extended health care? What happens when we might need a nursing home in our old age? I visited, sang, and ministered to a Nursing Home this past weekend and it was sad. It was sad because I know that, if I am lucky, I will be that old someday, and I may need that sort of help. I really smiled at those people because no matter how old they are, they are still alive and cherishing life. And, I still, and hopefully will always, cherish life too. Therefore, I cherished those people, because hopefully, they will be me someday, although I hope that I won't need a nursing home. I guess we could just put all the poor people out of their misery when they get really sick or old, but that seems a bit harsh. We are still a loving nation, aren't we? Nearly the entire developed world has universal health care, from Europe to the Asian powerhouses to South America's southern cone to the Anglophone states of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. The handful of developing countries that provide universal access to health care include oil-rich Saudi Arabia and Oman, Latin success story Costa Rica, Kyrgyzstan, and, famously, Cuba, among a few others. Why are we so far behind, the other developed and even developing countries, in taking care of the health of our citizens?
Is the goal to make people healthy or to treat sick people?

Despite how bad you think things are here, the Rochester mn airport is plugged with planes from Canada, Saudii Arabia and all those other countries you listed because they either wait an eternity or the expertise in the US is so much better. In case you don't know that's where the Mayo Clinic is. My brother is a radiologist there. He makes a living on foreigners....all who have universal healthcare they cant get at home.

There are things we are doing right.

I have employees in China, Canada, Australia and the UK. They are provided with private insurance because their coverage is great for colds and flu but not much beyond that.

That is our future course in this country.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:44 PM   #308
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What I said was that I am not aware of a position that party has against belts. You were the one that made the connection, not me.
First of all i hadnt even mentiomed the party. I Was talking lowercase l not upper.

Second, i didnt intend to make the connection, im sorry for that. I was using it as an example of a violation of personal liberty. I typed that post fast and wasnt paying as much attention as i could have.

I also point out that being pulled over is incredibly dangerous and could cause death. So theyre risking my life to save my life? Lol.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:02 PM   #309
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With all the typos on sites like this, I don't think anyone pays attention to upper or lower case letter.

You have a right to wear or belt or not. A cop can decide if he wants to pull you over or not. That's his right.

Those laws were passed in part because a driver has more control in a vehicle when in an accident while belted in than not.

There are some laws which we just need....they are smart certainly where public safety is involved

That's why we have speeding and drink driving laws too.....there is no implied liberty right to speed or not wear a seat belt.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:19 PM   #310
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Well i had specifically mentioned several times already i wasnt talking about the libertarian party.

What if i dont agree? Why isnt the seatbelt law in all 50 states? What if i feel that seatbelts can kill you in certain types of crashes?

How come when someone dies in an accident without a belt, its always assumed that the belt would have saved them, when thats clearly a bs statement because he might still have died?

What if its annoying that i have to take the belt off to look before i make certain maneuvers in my mack truck, such as odd angled right turns? Or changing a radio station or turning my engine break on? Oh, and i have an arm rest that would keep me from falling out my seat.


Why is my safety so important when it makes the state money, but they will put my life in danger to write that ticket? Helllooooo?
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:28 PM   #311
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Is the goal to make people healthy or to treat sick people?

Despite how bad you think things are here, the Rochester mn airport is plugged with planes from Canada, Saudii Arabia and all those other countries you listed because they either wait an eternity or the expertise in the US is so much better. In case you don't know that's where the Mayo Clinic is. My brother is a radiologist there. He makes a living on foreigners....all who have universal healthcare they cant get at home.

There are things we are doing right.

I have employees in China, Canada, Australia and the UK. They are provided with private insurance because their coverage is great for colds and flu but not much beyond that.

That is our future course in this country.
I never said that I thought things were bad here. I just think we are far behind other nations in taking care of the sick. We have great expertise here sure, but you can't afford it unless you are wealthy. One prime example is Magic Johnson. How many people are dying from Aids, yet MJ is still very healthy and strong, after more than thirty years of having the disease. Why? Clearly because he is wealthy enough to afford the best possible health care for the disease. So unless you are rich, you get seriously sick, you die. And, in the most wealthy nation in the world? That is wrong, and inhumane to me. We care more for endangered animals than we do for our fellow countrymen. I guarantee you that if all the healthy people were sick, they would support universal health care. But, they are not sick and they are greedy, so they won't support it for fear of losing money. They would probably support fixing the pot holes on their streets before universal health care for the life of their fellow man. It's all about greed.

Don't blame Obama for trying to change the U.S. into a loving care nation. He deserves applause for his stance on health care. I may not agree with some of his other policies, but with health care, in the richest nation in the world, he is "spot on". But unfortunately, in this nation, as it is, the rich get richer and the sick, die. That is so wrong.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:35 PM   #312
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Is the goal to make people healthy or to treat sick people?
What are you trying to say?

Are you saying that we should let sick people die?
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:36 PM   #313
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Magic Johnson had HIV...not full on AIDS. But your argument is still somewhat valid. I do believe wealthy people receive better care than not. The reality is that while healthcare is a necessity, it's also a business. This country has become a business as well...however we produce very little. Big smoke show if you ask me.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:53 PM   #314
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Lets take a poll:

How many, while working a career job and having insurance, have had to stand in line at a pharmacy and decide between buying a med that your Dr. prescribed and buying food for the family?
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #315
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I never said that I thought things were bad here. I just think we are far behind other nations in taking care of the sick. We have great expertise here sure, but you can't afford it unless you are wealthy. One prime example is Magic Johnson. How many people are dying from Aids, yet MJ is still very healthy and strong, after more than thirty years of having the disease. Why? Clearly because he is wealthy enough to afford the best possible health care for the disease. So unless you are rich, you get seriously sick, you die. And, in the most wealthy nation in the world? That is wrong, and inhumane to me. We care more for endangered animals than we do for our fellow countrymen. I guarantee you that if all the healthy people were sick, they would support universal health care. But, they are not sick and they are greedy, so they won't support it for fear of losing money. They would probably support fixing the pot holes on their streets before universal health care for the life of their fellow man. It's all about greed.

Don't blame Obama for trying to change the U.S. into a loving care nation. He deserves applause for his stance on health care. I may not agree with some of his other policies, but with health care, in the richest nation in the world, he is "spot on". But unfortunately, in this nation, as it is, the rich get richer and the sick, die. That is so wrong.
Funny how turning the nation into a loving care nation is going to force my girlfriend to buy insurance she cant afford or pay a fine, when she works a mediocre job at subway. Its hard to get ahead when you spend every penny you earn on merely living.

Nope, no subsidy for her unless she missed something...

I might be doing better than merely getting by, but now im being forced to buy a product i dont want, from a private corporation, or pay a fine? Where in the constitution did the government get this right?
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:28 PM   #316
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Lets take a poll: How many, while working a career job and having insurance, have had to stand in line at a pharmacy and decide between buying a med that your Dr. prescribed and buying food for the family?
To prove what? Here's an answer...

Anyone who makes BAD financial choices will be faced with a choice of food on the table or (enter whatever lower priority item here).

Anyone who makes GOOD financial choices won't be facing that decision.

You could give a million dollars to someone who is broke due to bad financial choices, and guess what? Tomorrow he will still be broke.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:53 PM   #317
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I never said that I thought things were bad here. I just think we are far behind other nations in taking care of the sick. We have great expertise here sure, but you can't afford it unless you are wealthy. One prime example is Magic Johnson. How many people are dying from Aids, yet MJ is still very healthy and strong, after more than thirty years of having the disease. Why? Clearly because he is wealthy enough to afford the best possible health care for the disease. So unless you are rich, you get seriously sick, you die. And, in the most wealthy nation in the world? That is wrong, and inhumane to me. We care more for endangered animals than we do for our fellow countrymen. I guarantee you that if all the healthy people were sick, they would support universal health care. But, they are not sick and they are greedy, so they won't support it for fear of losing money. They would probably support fixing the pot holes on their streets before universal health care for the life of their fellow man. It's all about greed. Don't blame Obama for trying to change the U.S. into a loving care nation. He deserves applause for his stance on health care. I may not agree with some of his other policies, but with health care, in the richest nation in the world, he is "spot on". But unfortunately, in this nation, as it is, the rich get richer and the sick, die. That is so wrong.
You are completely misinformed. "Unless you are rich and get sick you die". That is a completely ignorant statement.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:57 PM   #318
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What are you trying to say? Are you saying that we should let sick people die?
NO! Where did you get that idea? The question is simple.

Is our metric for success that more people have insurance or that people are healthier? The two metrics are mutually exclusive.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:03 PM   #319
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To prove what? Here's an answer...

Anyone who makes BAD financial choices will be faced with a choice of food on the table or (enter whatever lower priority item here).

Anyone who makes GOOD financial choices won't be facing that decision.

You could give a million dollars to someone who is broke due to bad financial choices, and guess what? Tomorrow he will still be broke.
^ Doesn't get it, what so ever ^

The point was, who has had to make that choice?

When medical costs are out of control, and necessary to maintain your life and the lives of those in your house, you have to make choices....
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:05 PM   #320
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Some people have more resources and can afford more things. That's just life. That's doesn't mean that other people should have no access to healthcare either. You can equalize healthcare.

We also need to stop calling it healthcare. It's really sickcare or simply insurance. Healthcare should include things like eating right, exercise and making other good choices.

But we have a society that is more out of shape than ever in history....a major reason why insurance costs are on the rise.

Until government is interested in truly looking at the problem instead of focused on philosophy we will never move the ball.

Obama has put us on a road that will take us years to recover from.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:09 PM   #321
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What DONT I get? I'm interested. Unless you are asking for everyone polled to include their day to day finances, how would this be accurate?

This "individual" making this choice of "food on the table, or prescription medication" may be standing in line with a brand new smart phone and $100 Nike sneakers. Unless you know all of the story, you'll never know any of it. Seems simple enough.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:53 PM   #322
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Or the lady I saw at the doctors office the last time with a pack of smokes in her back pocket, stinking like an ashtray, with an infected tattoo who didn't have two bucks for her copayment required by her wi state subsidized insurance.

That's not to say everyone who needs help is like that but there are a lot.

We are all victims of our own circumstances and choices.

Some of us worked hard in school, tried hard to stay out of trouble, worked our way through college, made it through a few crappy jobs, took some risks, worked long ass hours, and got a little success. Now raising kids that we had AFTER getting married and staying with their spouse, doing lots of volunteer work, and all so we can pay for so many other people...many of whom chose to make poor decisions.

There will also be people that need a lift and some help. But we have created a culture of multiple generations of people reliant on others for everything.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:07 PM   #323
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Funny how turning the nation into a loving care nation is going to force my girlfriend to buy insurance she cant afford or pay a fine, when she works a mediocre job at subway. Its hard to get ahead when you spend every penny you earn on merely living.
Most people have private health insurance paid through their employment company. I don't think the idea is to add an additional health care cost. I believe that the idea is for the government to take over that health insurance money, and supply health insurance to all citizens. At least, this is the way it should work.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:15 PM   #324
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Or the lady I saw at the doctors office the last time with a pack of smokes in her back pocket, stinking like an ashtray, with an infected tattoo who didn't have two bucks for her copayment required by her wi state subsidized insurance. That's not to say everyone who needs help is like that but there are a lot. We are all victims of our own circumstances and choices. Some of us worked hard in school, tried hard to stay out of trouble, worked our way through college, made it through a few crappy jobs, took some risks, worked long ass hours, and got a little success. Now raising kids that we had AFTER getting married and staying with their spouse, doing lots of volunteer work, and all so we can pay for so many other people...many of whom chose to make poor decisions. There will also be people that need a lift and some help. But we have created a culture of multiple generations of people reliant on others for everything.
You sir, are 100% correct. I'm willing to bet that anyone who argues with the above, is most likely part of the group referenced in your last statement.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:22 PM   #325
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Obama has put us on a road that will take us years to recover from.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that putting us on the road to universal health care is going to harm the country? Are you saying that most of the developed world is wrong for taking care of its citizens health? And, we are right for not doing it?

Putting us on the road to universal medical stability cannot be wrong. It is when we don't have it that we can't recover.

Universal health care will make the nation stronger. Simply because, more people will be healthy.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:45 PM   #326
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Or the lady I saw at the doctors office the last time with a pack of smokes in her back pocket, stinking like an ashtray, with an infected tattoo who didn't have two bucks for her copayment required by her wi state subsidized insurance.

That's not to say everyone who needs help is like that but there are a lot.

We are all victims of our own circumstances and choices.

Some of us worked hard in school, tried hard to stay out of trouble, worked our way through college, made it through a few crappy jobs, took some risks, worked long ass hours, and got a little success. Now raising kids that we had AFTER getting married and staying with their spouse, doing lots of volunteer work, and all so we can pay for so many other people...many of whom chose to make poor decisions.

There will also be people that need a lift and some help. But we have created a culture of multiple generations of people reliant on others for everything.
So, the lady with the infected tattoo must die, right? Isn't this what you are saying? One poor decision and you must die?

How many "kids" are enough? We have families that can afford to have all these children, but we can't afford to pay for universal health care?

If all these multiple children families had one less child, I guarantee you that we could afford universal health care. So, you tell me, what is the problem?
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:00 AM   #327
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So, the lady with the infected tattoo must die, right? Isn't this what you are saying? One poor decision and you must die? How many "kids" are enough? We have families that can afford to have all these children, but we can't afford to pay for universal health care? If all these multiple children families had one less child, I guarantee you that we could afford universal health care. So, you tell me, what is the problem?
The problem is people like you that apparently think that since "Jim" is a self made millionaire, he needs to give some of his money to "Bill" because "Bill" has none. "Bill" is 35, has 4 kids, works part time at Burger King, and spends 16 hours a day playing COD online.

Rather then enable people to be lazy, how about we teach them a little motivation instead? Mmmkay?

You are absolutely trying to mold what he said into a way that fits your argument.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:07 AM   #328
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I always find it interesting that wealthy people from countries that have some type of national health care usually come to the US to get medical treatment if they have a serious problem. Not sure why we want to be like those other countries that are taxed to death and still get sub standard health care. Why should we dumb ourselves down because other so called civilized countries have problematic health care systems?
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:17 AM   #329
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I always find it interesting that wealthy people from countries that have some type of national health care usually come to the US to get medical treatment if they have a serious problem. Not sure why we want to be like those other countries that are taxed to death and still get sub standard health care. Why should we dumb ourselves down because other so called civilized countries have problematic health care systems?
And, by sub-standard, you mean unaffordable to average US Citizens, right?
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:42 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
I always find it interesting that wealthy people from countries that have some type of national health care usually come to the US to get medical treatment if they have a serious problem. Not sure why we want to be like those other countries that are taxed to death and still get sub standard health care. Why should we dumb ourselves down because other so called civilized countries have problematic health care systems?
From a Canadian perspective, I can say we have excellent health care. The problem is, since it is "free", you get the nervous nellies running to the doctor for every little sniffle, ache or pain. It plugs the system, creating long wait times for people that really need help. I personally believe if we'd have to pay a small deductible, it would weed a lot of those useless trips to the doctor out, freeing up wait times. I agree about your taxed to death comment. I took a look at my finances last night. I loose 28% of my pay check to deductions. That includes income tax, Canada pension plan, employment insurance, extended Heath care (dental etc) and yes, income tax paid on health care benefits supplied by my employer.

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