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Old 08-15-2008, 05:51 PM   #1
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Pass me that soap box please!

I'm not too sure how many of you really know me...

I know I play around a lot and enjoy the ribbing I get from other forum members as well as dishing it out to my E-Jeepin' Buddies.

I have wheeled or camped with a lot of you over the last few years from time to time we have shared a cigar or an occasional adult beverage.

But I can no longer remain silent about a few things... So I'm exorcising my First Amendment Right!

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

I need to let you know where I stand!
  • Let me start by letting you know I am a Card Caring Republican
  • I am a huge conservative
  • I am a strict Constitutionalist
  • I proud member of the NRA
  • I'm pro life! and I believe Roe v Wade was the most egregious miscarriage of Justice the Supreme Court ever made.
  • I believe in personal responsibility for ones actions
  • I have genuine dislike for Federal Entitlement Programs
  • A practicing and active Christian
  • I think Ronald Regan was one the finest President of my life time
  • I believe People should be able to keep the money they earn and not be taxed to ridicules levels.
  • I'm believe in the System Free Enterprise and don't care for socialized health care.
  • I am a supporter of George W. Bush (although I disagree with several compromises he has made during his Presidency)

That being said; I am not a big fan of John McCain to this day I'm still bewildered by how Fred Thomson was by beaten some other candidates?

But I can't understand how any THINKING ADULT could ever support Barack Obama for a serious candidate???

Everyday is listen to the ridiculed things that roll out Barack Obama mouth...

Am I missing something???

Please tell me how a US Senator could know so little about the world?


A windfall Profit tax on big oil so they Government can pass out more subsidy checks?

Anyone with a basic understanding of Economics knows Corporations don't pay taxes... Taxes and fees are added back into the price of goods and services at the point of purchase! Consumers pay Cooperate taxes in the form of higher prices.

How about when he said: "Iran, Cuba & Venezuela... do not pose a serious threat to the US"

Madmen with Tactical Nuclear Weapons don't need a whole lot of people to or real estate destroy millions of lives. Remember what 13 Wackos did to us on 9/11 with a few planes?

Don't get me started with abortion!

Obama said:
ďLook, I got two daughters ó 9 years old and 6 years old,Ē he said. ďI am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I donít want them punished with a baby. I donít want them punished with an STD at age 16, so it doesnít make sense to not give them information.Ē

You should see the horrific legislation Obama supported as a Senator...

If you want to learn more about this I will email you the links.




Here is all I'm asking of you...

Voters; Educate Yourself

Read the US Constitution

Listen to both sides of the issues

Think before you vote!


Here is link you might find helpful as you refresh yourself on the Constitution

https://secure.heritage.org/firstPri...stitution.aspx


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Old 08-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #2
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well said brother. its hard to see obama's voting record, cuz he rarely voted in the short time he's been a politician.

a month or so ago i read that he has been in his position for somewhere around 160 days, most of his votes were "present" whatever that means, and he's been campaigning the whole time.

ya great candidate.

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Old 08-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #3
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #4
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One more thing

It has nothing at all to do the color of Obama's skin...

If Condalisa Rice or Colen Powell were running for President Tomorrow I would quit my job and go to work for their campaign's.
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:01 PM   #5
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Is there room up there for two?

(on the soapbox)
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:21 PM   #6
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It's a big one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare2BSquare View Post
Is there room up there for two?

(on the soapbox)

I'm kinda glad to see I'm not alone!
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:49 PM   #7
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Very well said, if I ever get to Texas I will join you on the soapbox.
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:49 PM   #8
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I'm a card-carrying Independent but I find the intelligent and well-spoken Obama, inexperienced as he is, far preferable to John "don't know much about economics" McCain (and far more appealing than Hilary would have been). I liked McCain when he was trying to be the Republican maverick and was taking pot-shots at Bush, the Iraq "War" and the religious right instead of accepting the leash and chain.

As far as voting record: there is ONE senator who has missed more votes than McCain (present and since 1991) - and HE at least was recovering from a brain tumor. Likewise, the "family values" candidate cheated on his terminally ill first wife with his current, campaign-financing wife. What kind of "character" is that?

McCain has nothing to recommend him - literally nothing. He's had his chance to make a huge difference and completely fumbled it. I'd rather go with Obama than a political has-been.
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:51 PM   #9
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:58 PM   #10
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One more though!



Do you think there are actually people out there who are so ignorant that they would cast their sacred vote on a candidate solely on the color of their skin White or Black???

A great American (Who happened to be black) once said:


"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."


Dr. Martin Luther King
I Have a Dream - Address at March on Washington
August 28, 1963. Washington, D.C.

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Old 08-15-2008, 08:09 PM   #11
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Here you guys..

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Old 08-15-2008, 11:27 PM   #12
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I think we should write Greg in for president and really fix the vote.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteyj View Post
I think we should write Greg in for president and really fix the vote.

If I had only go to law school...

I would have gone into Politics my wife is thinking about a political career someday she is even more conservative than I am. I think she plans to start with a School Bord and work her way up You never know...

Her only weakens is being married to me!

I would rather be a lobbyist representing the National Off Road Association defending our right to land access! MORE TO COME SOON ON THAT

But I'd be willing to argue my understanding of the US constitution against just about anyone... Except Alberto Gonzalez... When it comes to an in depth intimate understanding of the US constitution he is DA MAN!
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:45 AM   #14
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I think right now a great deal of us are in a place we have not been in a while. We all are feeling the effects of a slow job market, higher prices for food, gas etc. The world seems like it is in a constant state of trouble, from wars, to natural disasters. You get the idea.

I don't think either of the people running has made a strong push on how he will solve all the issues we are seeing. Obama, say its time for a change, but what the hell is that change he is talking about, and what is his PLAN for getting us there. He wants to expand gov't and increase tax's on us and companies, which means we the consumer get screwed both ways as we are the ones who end up paying.

McCain, while on the republican ticket, has some liberal slants. He does not want to drill for oil in Alaska. I guess he feels that making us energy independent is not his job. He does have a a long career in gov't service, so he knows the ropes better than Obama. He did serve our country with pride and understands for the most part world issues. He does have some baggage as well on the moral side with the 1st wife issues etc. Granted that was 20+ years ago and for some that might be a big issues for others not so much.

For me what this all comes down to is which one of these guys at the end of the day do I feel will help me and my family the most. Which one will protect and defend our country the best. Who will help best to increase job growth, who will help with energy independence the most to free us of our use of oil imports?

My vote, is going to McCain, simple reason he is closer to the things I do want. I don't want higher tax's I don't want someone who does not understand what our troops are dealing with, I don't want someone who's wife is only proud of her country just recently, I don't want someone who attended a church for almost 20 years that was filled with hate and anger, that is not what God teaches. I don't want someone who feels that judges should make laws vs. enforce the one's already on the books. I don't want someone who chants Change change, but can't tell you how we get there.

Thanks and have a great day.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:04 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jeepn View Post
I think right now a great deal of us are in a place we have not been in a while. We all are feeling the effects of a slow job market, higher prices for food, gas etc. The world seems like it is in a constant state of trouble, from wars, to natural disasters. You get the idea.

I don't think either of the people running has made a strong push on how he will solve all the issues we are seeing. Obama, say its time for a change, but what the hell is that change he is talking about, and what is his PLAN for getting us there. He wants to expand gov't and increase tax's on us and companies, which means we the consumer get screwed both ways as we are the ones who end up paying.

McCain, while on the republican ticket, has some liberal slants. He does not want to drill for oil in Alaska. I guess he feels that making us energy independent is not his job. He does have a a long career in gov't service, so he knows the ropes better than Obama. He did serve our country with pride and understands for the most part world issues. He does have some baggage as well on the moral side with the 1st wife issues etc. Granted that was 20+ years ago and for some that might be a big issues for others not so much.

For me what this all comes down to is which one of these guys at the end of the day do I feel will help me and my family the most. Which one will protect and defend our country the best. Who will help best to increase job growth, who will help with energy independence the most to free us of our use of oil imports?

My vote, is going to McCain, simple reason he is closer to the things I do want. I don't want higher tax's I don't want someone who does not understand what our troops are dealing with, I don't want someone who's wife is only proud of her country just recently, I don't want someone who attended a church for almost 20 years that was filled with hate and anger, that is not what God teaches. I don't want someone who feels that judges should make laws vs. enforce the one's already on the books. I don't want someone who chants Change change, but can't tell you how we get there.

Thanks and have a great day.

That pretty well says it all, well done.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jeepn View Post
I think right now a great deal of us are in a place we have not been in a while. We all are feeling the effects of a slow job market, higher prices for food, gas etc. The world seems like it is in a constant state of trouble, from wars, to natural disasters. You get the idea.

I don't think either of the people running has made a strong push on how he will solve all the issues we are seeing. Obama, say its time for a change, but what the hell is that change he is talking about, and what is his PLAN for getting us there. He wants to expand gov't and increase tax's on us and companies, which means we the consumer get screwed both ways as we are the ones who end up paying.

McCain, while on the republican ticket, has some liberal slants. He does not want to drill for oil in Alaska. I guess he feels that making us energy independent is not his job. He does have a a long career in gov't service, so he knows the ropes better than Obama. He did serve our country with pride and understands for the most part world issues. He does have some baggage as well on the moral side with the 1st wife issues etc. Granted that was 20+ years ago and for some that might be a big issues for others not so much.

For me what this all comes down to is which one of these guys at the end of the day do I feel will help me and my family the most. Which one will protect and defend our country the best. Who will help best to increase job growth, who will help with energy independence the most to free us of our use of oil imports?

My vote, is going to McCain, simple reason he is closer to the things I do want. I don't want higher tax's I don't want someone who does not understand what our troops are dealing with, I don't want someone who's wife is only proud of her country just recently, I don't want someone who attended a church for almost 20 years that was filled with hate and anger, that is not what God teaches. I don't want someone who feels that judges should make laws vs. enforce the one's already on the books. I don't want someone who chants Change change, but can't tell you how we get there.

Thanks and have a great day.
Well said. Ditto->
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:34 AM   #17
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I stand where you do!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jeepn View Post
I think right now a great deal of us are in a place we have not been in a while. We all are feeling the effects of a slow job market, higher prices for food, gas etc. The world seems like it is in a constant state of trouble, from wars, to natural disasters. You get the idea.

I don't think either of the people running has made a strong push on how he will solve all the issues we are seeing. Obama, say its time for a change, but what the hell is that change he is talking about, and what is his PLAN for getting us there. He wants to expand gov't and increase tax's on us and companies, which means we the consumer get screwed both ways as we are the ones who end up paying.

McCain, while on the republican ticket, has some liberal slants. He does not want to drill for oil in Alaska. I guess he feels that making us energy independent is not his job. He does have a a long career in gov't service, so he knows the ropes better than Obama. He did serve our country with pride and understands for the most part world issues. He does have some baggage as well on the moral side with the 1st wife issues etc. Granted that was 20+ years ago and for some that might be a big issues for others not so much.

For me what this all comes down to is which one of these guys at the end of the day do I feel will help me and my family the most. Which one will protect and defend our country the best. Who will help best to increase job growth, who will help with energy independence the most to free us of our use of oil imports?

My vote, is going to McCain, simple reason he is closer to the things I do want. I don't want higher tax's I don't want someone who does not understand what our troops are dealing with, I don't want someone who's wife is only proud of her country just recently, I don't want someone who attended a church for almost 20 years that was filled with hate and anger, that is not what God teaches. I don't want someone who feels that judges should make laws vs. enforce the one's already on the books. I don't want someone who chants Change change, but can't tell you how we get there.

Thanks and have a great day.
But if he picks a Pro-Choice VP I will have to rethink my vote ~ I've already called his office and told a staffer the same thing... They actually answered the phone!!! and she told me they have received thousands of phone calls today alone voicing the same opinion.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:21 AM   #18
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And one more thing!

I have slept since last night...

SO now I'm thinking more clearly...

______________________________________

Lets talk about Roe v Wade:


To this day I have always wondered how and or why the US Supreme Cort even agreed to hear that case.

There was never a valid constitutional argument presented in the brief.

And the actual decision in Roe V Wade as been grossly mis-applied in under court's decisions in applying the rule of presidencies. A bunch of Liberal *** appointed Judges using their own misguided vales to make decisions for the rest of the world.

There is a process for applying the will of the public under majority rule built into the US Constitutions it is the Constitutions Amendment Process. It is not easy but for 44 years while the Dems were in power they chose to use the Cort System and the Liberal Legislation to circumvents the process as to impart their moral standard over the Will of The People.

We are a representative government not a democracy meaning we need to be voting for people who most closely represent how we feel and think not how we look.

You can't imagine how angry I get when I hear folks misuse verbiage to make them look smart that is completely wrong... Like: "Separation of Church and State"

No where in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitutions or in any of the Amendments does it use those words... "Separation of Church and State"

The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.

And yet the United States Supreme Court has used this as a basics of interpretations to take the Ten Commandment out of Shopping Malls and Government Building... PLEASE Explain to me how anyone could have taken that kind of interpretation from the Constitution???
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:38 PM   #19
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The more I think about this!

If you read the US constitution from beginning to end take time to think about what you are reading you will see that the intent of our founding fathers was to limit the Size, Power and Scope of the Federal Government. Just look at the language they used it was almost biblical there is not much that would be left up to interoperation the language is cut and dry next to no ambiguity,


At what point did politicians begin to believe that the US governmentís job was to cater to every whim of the population. In my opinion somewhere between FDR and JFK politicians began to believe in that gift-wrapping money in form of Handouts was a way to get reelected. And since JFK with a small Break at Ronald Regan the Government has taken on the roll of federal babysitter and grown to the size of an unmanageable monster for folks who were too lazy to work. I donít have a problem with helping folks with genuine needs. But Iím tired of Handouts for votes.

Want to go to collage; get a job! Want to retire someday; save your money, Canít afford to feed your family quit having more kids than you can afford to feed. And if you take a risk and lose your ass suck it up. Donít expect the federal government to guarantees your bet. Want to be able to buy a hose someday pay your bills and protect your credit. Cant afford gasÖ Buy a car that gets better gas mileage or move closer to your job or ride a bike. Want to be rich someday, Work your ass off, take some well calculated risk and donít spend more than you make. It is not that hard.
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:22 PM   #20
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If you read the US constitution from beginning to end take time to think about what you are reading you will see that the intent of our founding fathers was to limit the Size, Power and Scope of the Federal Government. Just look at the language they used it was almost biblical there is not much that would be left up to interoperation the language is cut and dry next to no ambiguity.
These would also be the founding fathers who refused to codify laws against slavery, even though many of them privately were against it, wanted to restrict rights to landholders, regarded women, children and slaves as property.

For their time they were extraordinary men with extraordinary vision. Holding on to the vision of the late 1700s in the 2000s is neither possible nor desirable, although throwing it out wholesale isn't desirable, either.

Unfortunately, we do not seem to have leaders of that kind of vision or courage in our era.
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:50 PM   #21
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agreed!

But don't you find it strange that despite the fact that they use the words..

Freeman or White men anywhere in this document despite the fact that all the other language is so precise?

And the fact that they continually embrace the term ALL MEN?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ó That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ó That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. ó Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:46 PM   #22
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But don't you find it strange that despite the fact that they use the words..

Freeman or White men anywhere in this document despite the fact that all the other language is so precise?

And the fact that they continually embrace the term ALL MEN?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
That only works if you think they were being inclusive - clearly they weren't, as slavery was allowed to stand in the official documents spelling out the laws of the land.

The US Constitution contains this clause under rights of the states, struck down by the 13th Amendment in 1865:
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Meaning that slave-holding, bond servitude and indenture rights were guaranteed in every state.

As I said earlier, I think that most of the framers on the Constitution were extraordinary men, especially to put together and implement a document as radical as this one for its time. Any abolition of slavery would have prevented the formation of the US, as the southern states wouldn't have functioned without it and would never have gone along. But they did know they were skirting the issue in the name of political expediency, as you can find in any set of private letters of the time.

I don't think that trying to enshrine the Founding Father's words as an incontrovertible, unchangeable dogma is a good idea - no work of man is a perfect document, as 27 amendments (okay; 25, throw out Prohibition as it was later repealed) show.

I think the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence are shining examples of the excellent attempt to make a better union - I don't think of them as perfection.
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:14 PM   #23
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so what does the issue of slavery have to do with what greg has been saying? how does slavery take away from his points??

and besides, barack hussein obabma came from a tribe that sold slaves. the tribe his father was born into actively sold slaves. thats what 70 yrs ago maybe. i think abraham lincoln abolished slavery a little while before that. and our constitution also dealt with the other argument about women's rights also.

so how are those points an issue here?
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:18 PM   #24
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I agree with the point of not being perfect but that being said the document had
provisions for (SELF) Repair, Amendment and Updating.

Even though the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution knew that they could not foresee what the future held in store for us/them, they were incredible wise all most as if they had been endowed with a sort of divine guidance to have developed a LIVING BREATHING OUTLINE for Self Guidance.

To me; one of the most inspiring part of the US Constitution is:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Not a perfect union A more Perfect Union.

But this is the part of the Declaration of Independence send chills up and down my spine every time I read it.

Just imagine being there when the final draft was read!

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. ó And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

My two cents!
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:46 PM   #25
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so what does the issue of slavery have to do with what greg has been saying? how does slavery take away from his points??

and besides, barack hussein obabma came from a tribe that sold slaves. the tribe his father was born into actively sold slaves. thats what 70 yrs ago maybe. i think abraham lincoln abolished slavery a little while before that. and our constitution also dealt with the other argument about women's rights also.

so how are those points an issue here?

They're good points when arguing the perfection of the document. It's an opinion. Stating that "thinking adults" couldn't possibly vote for Obama is opinion also pure and simple, as is arguing the validity of Roe vs. Wade. All opinion. And that's fine, but others have opinions as well that may or may not differ from the OP.

Honestly, I see no issue here. I see JT posting opinions. I see no hard facts, and that's fine. Opinions are fun and I love when people are passionate about something enough to write about it, but I'd also love to see this posted over in the Hardcore Political forum on my writer's board.

And the term "all men" was used because blacks were considered chattel and not men at the time. Language changes over the years as does interpretation.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:22 PM   #26
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i agree tiny, hope thats not aimed at me. i just wanted to know how slavery became part of the who can vote for obama discussion, especially how ironic that is if you read my post.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:37 PM   #27
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I don't think anyone was saying that slavery has anything to do with voting for Obama, but the thread meandered, as they tend to do (please note, I did not do it this time), and the Constitution became the topic. No aiming involved.

And I've read the thread. Obama's voting record is not as abysmal as McCain's, though they both vote less than they should. This is a sad year for the presidential race and having to choose between the "lesser of two evils" (notice the quotes as I find neither man evil) is not what most of us had hoped for. I'd rather have a president who will raise up the United States, not one that will do the least amount of damage.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:15 PM   #28
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As a Christian, I'm worried. We cannot continue on this track...
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:17 AM   #29
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i watched mccain on tv at rick warren's saddle back church, i tuned in too late to see obabma, all though i wish i could've seen it. mccain sounded great, i really wish he didn't have such a liberal stance on abortion and marriange and such issues.
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Old 08-17-2008, 03:25 PM   #30
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i watched mccain on tv at rick warren's saddle back church, i tuned in too late to see obabma, all though i wish i could've seen it. mccain sounded great, i really wish he didn't have such a liberal stance on abortion and marriange and such issues.

Amen...

John McCain may be a Republican but he can not be mistaken for a conservative on a number of issues. Other than Strong National Defense; But he is no Ronald Regan!

I'm beginning to think to Primaries are designed & timed to shake out true Conservatives like Mike Huckabee and Fred Thompson. At this point I'd even feel better about Rudy Julianne!

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