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Old 06-05-2008, 02:19 PM   #61
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And a pic of the existing Alaskan Oil Pipeline:

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Old 06-05-2008, 02:58 PM   #62
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One oil pump may only take up a few hundred square feet on its own, but to get it there, there needs to be roads and pipelines, and they are not talking about one pump, they are talking about thousands. They want to open up a little less than 50 Sq. miles to oil drilling and that means roads, workers, huge trucks, etc. just to make it.
All of this would happen in one of the harshest and least forgiving environments for plants and animals, where just a little change can kill off an organism which can then lead to the ecosystem being less diverse and if enough things die out a chain reaction would happen and the ecosystem as it is now would collapse, in that part of Alaska.

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Old 06-05-2008, 03:48 PM   #63
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All I can say is: Who the hell are you and what have you done with Derek?


In all seriousness Derek, you are doing an awesome job debating your side of this topic. You're making good points and backing them up. I'm impressed! (by the way, 4Point is right about your Elk comment, you need to check your sources better.)

Well done!
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:44 PM   #64
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The point of the whole presevrve is it is the only place in the world that Elk go to breed and give birth.
Better check your facts on that one. We have a breeding population of Elk in Arkansas. (of all places)

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As stated in previous post, you put up an argument/debate. It is neither good or factually correct. You need to quit guessing at the facts and stop spewing the unbased, regurgitated talk points. Let this thread be what the OP wanted it to be and take your views to a new thread.
The OP says, Keep on making your point Derrek. Just make sure you are factual in what you back up your arguement with.
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:36 PM   #65
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Yeah, Derek we have a huge Elk population here in Arizona too my friend. And I didn't get drawn for a tag this year which sucks. You might be talking about Moose, but I'm not even sure on that one.

So just because there are no trees does that make it right that we drilled in california, texas, nevada, kansas, wyoming, etc....? So what's wrong with Alaska or the Gulf? Have you ever seen a landfill after it's been returned to its natural state? I get your point about an alternative fuel source D, but you damn well know that it's not going to happen overnight. Advancements can only come at the speed of the people making them. Maybe your talents are better spent getting an education in science or engineering than becoming the next head of the Center For Biological Diversity.
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:45 PM   #66
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Yeah, Derek we have a huge Elk population here in Arizona too my friend. ...You might be talking about Moose, but I'm not even sure on that one.
Actually the only Cervids in ANWR are Moose and Caribou. No documented Elk herds.
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:47 PM   #67
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Actually the only Cervids in ANWR are Moose and Caribou. No documented Elk herds.
Well there you go. I was right.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:06 PM   #68
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The point of the whole presevrve is.......
Purposes of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

http://arctic.fws.gov/purposes.htm

The Arctic Refuge is managed for all Americans by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, a federal agency within the Department of the Interior.

The original 'Arctic National Wildlife Range' was created in 1960 by Public Land Order 2214 "For the purpose of preserving unique wildlife, wilderness and recreational values..."

In 1980 the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA) enlarged the area, designated much of the original Range as Wilderness under the 1964 Wilderness Act, renamed the whole area the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and added four purposes.


The ANILCA purposes are:

(i) to conserve fish and wildlife populations and habitats in their natural diversity including, but not limited to, the Porcupine caribou herd (including participation in coordinated ecological studies and management of this herd and the Western Arctic caribou herd), polar bears, grizzly bears, muskox, Dall sheep, wolves, wolverines, snow geese, peregrine falcons and other migratory birds and Arctic char [note that those residing in Alaska's North Slope rivers and lagoons are now classified as Dolly Varden] and grayling;

(ii) to fulfill the international fish and wildlife treaty obligations of the United States;

(iii) to provide the opportunity for continued subsistence uses by local residents; and

(iv) to ensure water quality and necessary water quantity within the refuge.
Section 1002 of ANILCA required that studies be performed to provide information to Congress. These mandated studies included a comprehensive inventory and assessment of fish and wildlife resources, an analysis of potential impacts of oil and gas exploration and development on those resources, and a delineation of the extent and amount of potential petroleum resources. Because this Congressionally designated part of the Refuge coastal plain was addressed in Section 1002 of ANILCA, it is now referred to as the "1002 Area."

Also referring to this area of the coastal plain, Congress declared in Section 1003 of ANILCA that the "production of oil and gas from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is prohibited and no leasing or other development leading to production of oil and gas from the [Refuge] shall be undertaken until authorized by an act of Congress."
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:24 PM   #69
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caribou my bad, the biggest birth spot/ migration for caribou in the us/canada, around 175,000 pass though each year
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:26 PM   #70
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This is going from memory here, but when the Alaskan Pipe line was being built there were fears that the caribou herds were going to be cut off from their migration path splitting the herds which numbered 1-2 million. Just the opposite happened the herd grew by another million and the migration went on uninterrupted.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:17 PM   #71
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wow, I got in late on this one, but I'm glad someone finally pointed out to db that there is a pipeline in alaska already.

And debruins, I to am impressed at your ability to argue your point, even if I dissagree with everything you say, before we get to far of topic, I signed the petition the other night after I saw it on Hannity and Colmes.

It is becoming evident that you have very little knowledge of the oil well/feild industry. And trust me, I have been around this industry since I was born, and currently have a job in the natural resource industry, and the goverment is plenty good at regulating.

I think perhaps we should vote on drilling in alaska, and surely there won't be enough enviro wackos out there to stop us, even if it gets voted down, I will save up my money, buy a peice of land next to the protected area or whatever and directional drill into the oil from my land WHICH.... by the way is what they are doing to us in the gulf, maybe if someone in Washington could dig their heads out of there asses we could take care of that problem.

Do we need to get away from oil, yes.. will it do us anygood if America is bankrupt by the time we get there..Nope.

In the mean time, I'm going to purchase my carbon credits, and lace up my running shoes and get ready to walk my 30 miles to work.

And oh yeah.... I've got a few choice words for the caribou!
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:49 PM   #72
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America wont be saved form bankruptcy by drilling in Alaska, as I stated before most analysts agree that it would only drop the price of a barrel of oil by a dollar or two, about .75%, Thats not gonna even show up at the pumps. What will keep America out of bankruptcy is if Americans learn to use credit cards the right way, and not run up their debt, but buy only what they can. That will have a bigger impact than a dollar or two off of a barrel of oil.
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:15 PM   #73
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I don't know why you are so hung up on Alaska. There's plenty more oil in the ground / sea in this country.
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:16 PM   #74
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so why not drill there then and not ruin pristine wilderness!
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:24 PM   #75
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so why not drill there then and not ruin pristine wilderness!
Why ruin other places?

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Old 06-05-2008, 09:57 PM   #76
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:Sigh:

does anyone else remember how the world was going to freeze over, and we were headed for an ice age? I am too young to remember, but I remember reading it in my research. That was a long time ago, and if I remember right, we should be all dead right now. DB, like I said before, STOP BELIEVING THE NEWS (ENTERTAINMENT..NOT FACT) and do your own darn research. You are spouting the BS environmentalist wacko key phrases, and hardly any of them have ANY truth, and the ones that do are not valid what so ever at all.

Since you obviously have no idea what the pumps look like, and do to the environment, DESPITE the fact that plenty of other people have tried to talk some reason and showed you pictures, here are some more from MY FAMILIES FARM in west Virgina. Again, let me reassure you there is NO effect to the animals or land, other than a few pieces of metal scattered here and there. Heck, some animals use the darn things to survive by hiding from predators.. The pictures will clearly show the LACK of damage, and these pumps were drilled in the VERY early 1900s. Just look up Big Moses, WV. You will find it to be the largest natural gas well ever found in the world, and founded LONG ago.



Heres that "oh so horrible" road thats going to DESTROY the ecosystem in Alaska, thats needed for the maintenance.








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Old 06-05-2008, 10:00 PM   #77
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so why not drill there then and not ruin pristine wilderness!
Did you read the petition?

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it's illegal to drill off either coast, its illegal to drill in Alaska, its illegal to drill on the transcontinental shelf, it's illegal to drill in most of the Rockies, no refineries built in 35 yrs, no development of nuclear energy since the 70s….and on and on…
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:03 PM   #78
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Thats in WV not Alaska, in Alaska it is quite a different ecosystem, it takes an organism hundreds of years to grow more than 6 inches high. That is exactly why I am not so against drilling other places where it will not have as big of an impact. In Alaska however that road u show would not have grass growing up in the middle, or on the edges, it would take a hundred years or more maybe for the tundra to grow back. If they want to drill in places like WV or Texas or the Gulf i don't have as big of a problem with that, it is 1,000,000 times better than in Alaska. In Alaska though it is one of the most fragile ecosystems that exists in the U.S.


and yes i did read it, and I'm not signing anything that would probably lead to the opening of ANWR to drilling, or the rockies to a lesser extent. The place where they keep looking to drill is in ANWR so if they open any new place to drilling it would be there and not in the rockies or transcontinental shelf. I dont think it is even necessary to make more refineries or drill more oil, but I am not opposed to drilling in the ocean or making more refineries.
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:17 PM   #79
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I dont think it is even necessary to make more refineries or drill more oil
That's exactly what got us where we are today. Keep on being at the mercy of OPEC and pumping money into the coffers of those who would just as soon see us all dead.

Don't get me wrong, I am for developing alternate energy sources. If we don't, our children's children are screwed. But in the mean time, we MUST become less dependant on foreign oil.

We didn't learn the lesson in the 70's and I am skeptical that the powers that be will learn it this time, either. It's okay for them, they suck at the PUBLIC teat. And we evidently give a lot of milk.
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:28 PM   #80
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why is drilling in our own country the solution to not being controlled to foreign oil? Why does everyone think that alternative energy is so far away and not developed yet?
Alternative ways of creating energy are highly developed but we are not willing to give up some stupid things, we dont want wind turbines b/c they are unsightly (somehow cell towers and radio towers aren't though???), we dont want to use tidal power because it makes bays less scenic ( and the huge warves and landing docks for ships don't already do that?), we dont want solar b/c it is too expensive, (an electricity plant that uses all solar would cost the same as a Coal power plant after 9 years, just nine years and the operating costs of a coal plant make up for the cost of the solar panels)

people don't understand all that needs to happen is a kick in the behind to get these projects going and once people realize how feasible renewable energy is it will become a reality. Germany is run off of 73% solar power, why aren't we? France is run 83% off of nuclear, why aren't we? the Netherlands is run 12% off of hydroelectric, why aren't we?

We dont need to develop alternate ways, we need to put them to use!!
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Old 06-05-2008, 11:12 PM   #81
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why is drilling in our own country the solution to not being controlled to foreign oil?


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Why does everyone think that alternative energy is so far away and not developed yet? Alternative ways of creating energy are highly developed but we are not willing to give up some stupid things, we dont want wind turbines b/c they are unsightly (somehow cell towers and radio towers aren't though???), we dont want to use tidal power because it makes bays less scenic ( and the huge warves and landing docks for ships don't already do that?), we dont want solar b/c it is too expensive, (an electricity plant that uses all solar would cost the same as a Coal power plant after 9 years, just nine years and the operating costs of a coal plant make up for the cost of the solar panels)

people don't understand all that needs to happen is a kick in the behind to get these projects going and once people realize how feasible renewable energy is it will become a reality. Germany is run off of 73% solar power, why aren't we? France is run 83% off of nuclear, why aren't we? the Netherlands is run 12% off of hydroelectric, why aren't we?

We dont need to develop alternate ways, we need to put them to use!!
*sigh*

Dude, I'm glad you are passionate about the nonsensical blather you've been brainwashed with. I'll continue the debate after you've seasoned a bit and have had a chance to stop hugging all the trees in the neighborhood.
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:04 AM   #82
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why is drilling in our own country the solution to not being controlled to foreign oil? Why does everyone think that alternative energy is so far away and not developed yet?
Alternative ways of creating energy are highly developed but we are not willing to give up some stupid things, we dont want wind turbines b/c they are unsightly (somehow cell towers and radio towers aren't though???), we dont want to use tidal power because it makes bays less scenic ( and the huge warves and landing docks for ships don't already do that?), we dont want solar b/c it is too expensive, (an electricity plant that uses all solar would cost the same as a Coal power plant after 9 years, just nine years and the operating costs of a coal plant make up for the cost of the solar panels)

edit: By the way, some places do use solar, but they still need to use regular electricity lines fairly regularly. At least around here they do.

people don't understand all that needs to happen is a kick in the behind to get these projects going and once people realize how feasible renewable energy is it will become a reality. Germany is run off of 73% solar power, why aren't we? France is run 83% off of nuclear, why aren't we? the Netherlands is run 12% off of hydroelectric, why aren't we?

We dont need to develop alternate ways, we need to put them to use!!
There is a reason we don't use solar. Its very expensive, the plates get damanged very easily in sand or ice storms and need to be replaced, and you don't collect anywhere near as much energy during bad weather or night time. I assume you will probably argue using large batteries to store this electricity. Do a good search for Canada and Lithium Ion mining. Talk about destroying your precious environment..

We tried to use Nuclear power. That is our best options, but the democrats wont let us.

DB, I am done bud. As with everyone else, I am glade you a passoniate about something, but you are dead wrong, and need to do your own research instead of listening to your teachers bullshit and the news. Do some research on the computer. Wont take long to discover the kind of BS you are being fed.

I am not really this mad at you, its more America in general. Its sad that so many flippin people are the same as you. Just take all this demo bullshit fear mongering for truth and are too lazy to do any research.

BTW, plenty of auto companies are/were doing hybrid research. The dems made them focus on ethanol (which we all know works SO well in the US, especially using corn ) instead of more viable alternative systems. Not to mention, the government steped in and put so many regulations and time lines for the auto companies that they now have to spend all their research and development time trying to meet these stupid quotas rather than look for alternative fuels. Why our government thinks they know more about building a car and running and engine, then our automotive companies, I will never understand, but the government basically took over research and development of alternative fuels. You are simply blaming the wrong people with unreliable and down right incorrect "facts."
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:02 AM   #83
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Well obviously solar can work if we worked at it, as it has in Germany, they don't have any better solar panels than we do here, but they still run 100% off of solar during most days. There are ways that we can get them to work, but people like you are just flat out wrong and need to know the facts about solar. Do some research on Germany and its solar power and the prices of solar panels after rebates in the U.S. :-P

My dads company is actually putting up a solar array of 1,500 panels, it will cost almost a million dollars to put in, but in 11 years it will pay back and then start making money for them. The life of a solar panel is about 25 years so they could make/save more than a million dollars, and thats if the cost of energy only rises by 3% each year! And this is is cloudy and snowy New England, think about how much shorter the payback time would be somewhere else.

Also Id rather believe what I am taught in school and what is in my textbook over some random websites made by who knows who. We could both do "research" on the internet and find exactly opposite facts if we looked hard enough.

And if you wanna only research from places like the EPA, im pretty sure they'll have my side of the story.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:25 AM   #84
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The whole point of the post is that the government of this country has pandered to the big business, big industry people and their interests. Do you really think Bush and Cheney want to develop alternate energy sources? They made all their money from the oil business, before they decided to stick their noses into everyone's business by running for office. And people like Al "Bore" are making millions by being fear mongers.

Straight up. If the government would leave us alone plenty of people would be working on developing our energy supplies. They cannot do it profitably because of all the government regulations. It's like signing up someone for a marathon and then cutting off their legs.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:40 PM   #85
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ahhhh so why aren't we petitioning for a smaller government then, id sign that and that would seem to fix a lot of problems. Go to the source of the problem!
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:52 PM   #86
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Come on man, your way off on this.
And maybe you should rethink your statement about signing the petition for smaller goverment. Do you plan to support/vote for a democrat?

And that statement about beleiving what you read in your textbooks, give me a break

But like some others, I too am done. And even though I know you even hate to think about it, most likely we will be drilling in Alaska in your lifetime.
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:01 PM   #87
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I don't know why you are so hung up on Alaska. There's plenty more oil in the ground / sea in this country.
Ummm... Alaska IS in THIS country!!! Der!!!

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so why not drill there then and not ruin pristine wilderness!

I say we drill Canada! Screw those damn canucks!!!
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:57 PM   #88
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And that statement about beleiving what you read in your textbooks, give me a break
huh? so u say school is dumb and i shouldn't believe my textbooks?, in that case hitler's still alive AAHHH where is he!


anyway
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Old 06-06-2008, 05:51 PM   #89
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Ummm... Alaska IS in THIS country!!!
And what about my post made you think I didn't know that? Go back to sniffing paint fumes!!! Der!!!

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I say we drill Canada! Screw those damn canucks!!!
Horizontal drilling all along the border.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:02 PM   #90
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Location: Jeffersontown
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Um Bruins most of our school books were pretty biased and iv not been out of school very long.


~Lev

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