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Old 02-14-2014, 03:43 PM   #31
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Religion in general is just something that is designed to give the masses peace of mind, nothing more. This is just my opinion however.

The only time I have a problem with either side is when the extremists open their mouths. I will never understand how certain religious groups preach that they are peace loving individuals but strike down and condemn homosexuals.

Just recently in Kansas they tried to get a bill passed that would deny benefits and basic rights to homosexuals.

They sure seem peace loving.
As is typically the case in these situations, the proposed bill and the headline read very differently. This bill would not deny benefits and basic rights to homosexuals. It would, however, protect individuals who chose not to cater to homosexuals based on religious reasons. I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong, but I do think that when these things are discussed we need to keep it factual.

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Old 02-14-2014, 04:41 PM   #32
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So Ill start by saying I do believe in God/Jesus.Not because i have any real proof of it,although me being here right now is proof I suppose.Anyhoo,a kid at work who doesent necessarily believe or disbelieves God wonders where the proof is.There was a show a bit back with a guy who doesent believe in God & a guy who does(A Christian).The thing that my friend kept mentioning is the Ark.The thing that was brought up is its not possible to build a ship big enough,especially in those times that could float in the ocean and carry 2 of every animal.Besides reading the Bible what proof is there that the Ark existed? I dont know what to tell him except that faith is what keeps me going.
When you die are you reunited with loved ones,who can even prove that?? I dont want this to turn into an argument but hopefully something I can take back to him,and in the process learn myself.Thanks everyone.
Regarding the ark being capable of doing what the Bible says it did in Genesis, I found this explanation which may be worth your time to read. I just picked one of many that give pretty much the same arguments.

http://creation.mobi/how-did-all-the...t-on-noahs-ark

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Old 02-14-2014, 05:12 PM   #33
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I'm a Christian. I have family members who are Homosexual. I have a friend who is also. I chose to keep them in my life. I do not force my way into their lives where I am neither comfortable to go or they do not invite me. I love them. We are different in our belief systems but get along great. We wheel with Agnostics and Athiest's, Party people and Mormons, JW's, Christians. I don't judge you. I can not give anyone concrete proof of a Living God. But neither can anyone give me proof of the absence of one. I have chosen to live my life in a way I am comfortable with. I feel that for me and my family it is the one that has the most peace and comfort for us. I am happy with my decision. I am comfortable with what ever you chose. I don't have to agree to get along and have fun.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:38 PM   #34
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Are you saying that God made that happen? You are forgetting the we were given free choice. God does not choose which couples procreate. When two people with certain genes procreate, less than desireable results can happen. I beleive in God, but I do not believe that he controls each breath we take.
No, I wasnt saying god made it happen, I was just saying its hard to believe in a god that allows things like that to happen.
I would really love to think theres a higher power and maybe I / we will have the chance to sit down and have all our questions answered when our time comes.
I dont disbelieve nor am I a concrete believer. I just see way too many bad things happen to good people. And I know people have there own free will to do as they choose... but.
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:59 PM   #35
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I was a paramedic for about 20 years in NYC and Miami. Worked hundreds of codes and just about everyone I brought back seemed pissed. Most had the same peaceful light story. Made me think. Some were upset at broken teeth and paddle tattoos too. I for one believe.
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:49 PM   #36
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...guess the joke font was not selected for that post of mine.

But if you weren't able to infer that, and the comment about it applying to all religions not just yours, here are a few examples

Peter 2:18
I almost forgot to get back to you on this...
I'm assuming you meant 1Peter here, commanding slaves to submit to their masters. Here is a pretty good summary of the subject: https://bible.org/seriespage/submiss...1-peter-218-25.
But most of the verses you submitted merely speak in a context that we cannot comprehend in modern society. But, I agree to an extent. Some of these things, when looked through the prism of modern norms do come across as pretty ridiculous.
If you meant 2Peter, the easy translation into modern English is "don't talk shit."


If I address every verse you gave, I'd end up writing an essay 67 pages long that no one would read anyway, but another that popped out at me was Genesis 2:22. Within the story that is being told, the verse makes perfect sense. Abraham's faith was being tested by God, and many see this story as a foreshadowing to the sacrifice that would be required at the cross in order to bring in the new covenant with God, and to fulfill thousands of years of prophecy.

Even for a non-believer, the bible is filled with fascinating history of the Jewish people, and a unique perspective of the social structures in place at various points throughout history. Just as our views have changed from 1900 until now, the views throughout 6000 years of history written in the bible changed. However, several things, from Genesis through Revelation, remain eternal.
I don't insist that everyone should believe what I believe. And honestly, I enjoy conversation with non-believers. To have intelligent discussion on the subject forces me to look at it more closely and dig deeper to find the logic in my faith. Most anti-Christians don't have enough knowledge of the subject to even understand what it is that they're against, they just see the bastardized worship on TV and assume that that's what Christianity really is, when nothing could be further from the truth.
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:00 PM   #37
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I am glad to see that this thread has not gone south. I do not have all the answers, but I know what I know and that is that He does live. Here is a good video that has helped me in the hard times that have come to me and will come to everyone sometime in their lives:
The great thing is that each of us has the agency to choose and believe or not believe and that is okay, but for me I know and do not just believe.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:46 PM   #38
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Show him Pascal's Wager; it isn't proof, but it is A proof (lol oh math humor).

Or you could undermine his belief in the scientific method by expounding upon Hume's argument against induction.

IMO belief in a higher power is not something that can be intellectualized, it can only be, for lack of a better word, felt, and as soon as you start trying to intellectualize it you are making it something it's not.

I for one don't KNOW one way or the other, nor could I prove it to you.

I tend to think there's a higher power of some kind out there larger than us and what we know and can conceive of, but whether it knows about us or bothers with us at all, I can't say.
I hear you.

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Old 02-15-2014, 09:18 PM   #39
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No, I wasnt saying god made it happen, I was just saying its hard to believe in a god that allows things like that to happen.
I would really love to think theres a higher power and maybe I / we will have the chance to sit down and have all our questions answered when our time comes.
I dont disbelieve nor am I a concrete believer. I just see way too many bad things happen to good people. And I know people have there own free will to do as they choose... but.

What do you mean "allows things" to happen. We were given free will. That means that everything we do is a choice. Every choice had a consequence. Think about it, every single thing you do, everything no matter how miniscule is a choice. If our society understood that and took responsibility for their choices and consequences, the world would be a far better place. Stop looking to blame God for bad things. Bad things are consequences of poor choices. You often hear people say that a child didn't ask to be born. It's true they didn't ask, but that child's parents made a choice to procreate. Every choice has a consequence, some good, some bad. Choose wisely.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:25 PM   #40
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So Ill start by saying I do believe in God/Jesus.Not because i have any real proof of it,although me being here right now is proof I suppose.Anyhoo,a kid at work who doesent necessarily believe or disbelieves God wonders where the proof is.There was a show a bit back with a guy who doesent believe in God & a guy who does(A Christian).The thing that my friend kept mentioning is the Ark.The thing that was brought up is its not possible to build a ship big enough,especially in those times that could float in the ocean and carry 2 of every animal.Besides reading the Bible what proof is there that the Ark existed? I dont know what to tell him except that faith is what keeps me going.
When you die are you reunited with loved ones,who can even prove that?? I dont want this to turn into an argument but hopefully something I can take back to him,and in the process learn myself.Thanks everyone.

You talking about the movie "Sunset Limited"?? with Tommy lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson???
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:00 PM   #41
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I also believe that god left us to our own devices. He gave us rules to live by and the words of The saints and prophets to guide our path. We will be judged when it's our time.
I would like to think and hope that there is something beyond our mortal lives.
I do have to say that I'm not a big fan of organized religion and those who are sure that they know what god wants. I always say, Watch out for those people that are too holy.
Atheist or believer, live a honest and decent life and wether there's a here after or not, you'll leave this earth on your last day with a content heart.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:23 AM   #42
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You talking about the movie "Sunset Limited"?? with Tommy lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson???
It was a debate.Im not really sure but tomorrow Ill ask him what it was.
it might be the link in post 26
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:44 PM   #43
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I also believe that god left us to our own devices. He gave us rules to live by and the words of The saints and prophets to guide our path. We will be judged when it's our time.
I would like to think and hope that there is something beyond our mortal lives.
I do have to say that I'm not a big fan of organized religion and those who are sure that they know what god wants. I always say, Watch out for those people that are too holy.
Atheist or believer, live a honest and decent life and wether there's a here after or not, you'll leave this earth on your last day with a content heart.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:57 PM   #44
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You may want to check out Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander's book "proof of heaven".
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:53 PM   #45
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You may want to check out Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander's book "proof of heaven".
I will do that.Thanks for all this good info.For some people not being able to see something makes them doubt it exists.Then theres the air we breathe...
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:05 PM   #46
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I will do that.Thanks for all this good info.For some people not being able to see something makes them doubt it exists.Then theres the air we breathe...
Also check out a book called More Than Just A Capenter


Oh, and air is a poor example since it's weighable, quantifiable, measurable, and can be felt when the wind blows :-)

And China's air can be seen from space!
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:21 PM   #47
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When my daughter was young- maybe 10 years old- her dad would get on her for wanting to read the bible and go to church.

He said "I can't believe in something I can't see". Her response: "Well, you have to believe to see".

He didn't have anything to say to that.

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Old 02-17-2014, 07:44 PM   #48
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When my daughter was young- maybe 10 years old- her dad would get on her for wanting to read the bible and go to church.

He said "I can't believe in something I can't see". Her response: "Well, you have to believe to see".

He didn't have anything to say to that.

What a great response! Your daughter is very wise!
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:51 PM   #49
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What a great response! Your daughter is very wise!
Thank you! She is so smart and wise beyond her years.

She gets that from me.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:29 AM   #50
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As mentioned previously, the Bill Nye VS Ken Ham debate was a wonderful example of the fallacies of religion; particularly when religion takes their faith into the public domain and attempts to force fiction as fact; and/or (usually and) attempts to force their way of life on all. Every major faith is guilty of this through each of their histories; and continues to be so today; be it the incessant violence in the mideast to the attempts to ban the LGBT issues on this side of the pond.

I have no problem believing whatever they wish - in the privacy of their own homes. However; their beliefs, particularly those of fiction and those of control that is not warranted, have no business in the public square and especially not in government or education. Should those of any faith choose to bring it public; then they should understand that doing so opens their faith up to public scrutiny - and if your faith cannot withstand said scrutiny; that is the fault of the faith; not the scrutiny.

For the record; I am an atheist - but it took me a while to get back there. I was raised without religion in the home (the bibles were present if we kids wanted to read them - I deliberately avoided them until I felt myself old enough to figure it out), and once I stepped into the real world I played with a number of faiths; wiccan, pagan, satanist, vampiric (I am not kidding; it is a faith), and of course exploring the 'major' religions as well. Ten years later, I ultimately came to the conclusion that it was all bunk. IF there is an afterlife (I think there possibly is; but I also think such is segmented from any concept of deity), then I shall concern myself about it at that time. In regards to the notion of gods; I shall quote an inscription in a certain place of what can only described as evil wrought by man --

"If there is a god, then he will have to beg for my forgiveness."

Written on a prison camp wall by one religious individual; as he was being exterminated by the soldiers of another religious cult. I will leave it to the people to fill in the blanks on that one; it should be fairly obvious.

For some very 'enlightening' reading, I suggest the following --

Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:21 AM   #51
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there is way too much bad things happening, especially to children, ie born with cancer or a disease, and such.

God isn't the only one that can perform miracles(lack of a better word at 5am). Look what Satan did to Job.

I guess I look at it like this, if there is no God, I wasted a bit of Faith, if there is a God, non-believers will burn in Hell.

My parents lost my older brother and younger sister within two days of their birth, and I was diagnosed with diabetes at 6. Our family still believs in God.

I'm not trying to go all Westboro Baptist Church and condem people, that's not my job. Just giving my thoughts
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:14 AM   #52
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As mentioned previously, the Bill Nye VS Ken Ham debate was a wonderful example of the fallacies of religion; particularly when religion takes their faith into the public domain and attempts to force fiction as fact; and/or (usually and) attempts to force their way of life on all. Every major faith is guilty of this through each of their histories; and continues to be so today; be it the incessant violence in the mideast to the attempts to ban the LGBT issues on this side of the pond.

I have no problem believing whatever they wish - in the privacy of their own homes. However; their beliefs, particularly those of fiction and those of control that is not warranted, have no business in the public square and especially not in government or education. Should those of any faith choose to bring it public; then they should understand that doing so opens their faith up to public scrutiny - and if your faith cannot withstand said scrutiny; that is the fault of the faith; not the scrutiny.

For the record; I am an atheist - but it took me a while to get back there. I was raised without religion in the home (the bibles were present if we kids wanted to read them - I deliberately avoided them until I felt myself old enough to figure it out), and once I stepped into the real world I played with a number of faiths; wiccan, pagan, satanist, vampiric (I am not kidding; it is a faith), and of course exploring the 'major' religions as well. Ten years later, I ultimately came to the conclusion that it was all bunk. IF there is an afterlife (I think there possibly is; but I also think such is segmented from any concept of deity), then I shall concern myself about it at that time. In regards to the notion of gods; I shall quote an inscription in a certain place of what can only described as evil wrought by man --

"If there is a god, then he will have to beg for my forgiveness."

Written on a prison camp wall by one religious individual; as he was being exterminated by the soldiers of another religious cult. I will leave it to the people to fill in the blanks on that one; it should be fairly obvious.

For some very 'enlightening' reading, I suggest the following --

Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon


Atheism is a "religion"... lol... its the belief in there is no God. Short of you hearing a big booming voice and talking to a burning bush, there is probably nothing that will change your mind. As for me, I do believe and have faith, I don't think anything will be able to change that. I do have questions though and there are times where it crossed my mind for a second or 2 that just maybe there isn't, but I always believe.

I do have a problem with the people who want all religious things taken down. Like the 10 commandments from public buildings and crosses taken off of churches if the cross is in public view. That borders on being a fanatic, they are forcing their belief of no God onto me. Just because they find the religious representations offensive they go out of their way to push their belief onto others. That's where I have a problem. Trying to remove "in God we trust" from money is ridiculous, removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance is ridiculous. If they don't want to say it then you don't have to, but I will. If you don't want to touch money that has God written on it then don't use money, use plastic for everything. I'm not cramming religion down anyones throat and I'd like it if they didn't cram their beliefs in mine.

I don't mean you and in you personally but just in general talk. LOL. People can believe in whatever they want to believe... just don't force it on anybody....
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:00 AM   #53
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Atheism is a "religion"... lol... its the belief in there is no God. Short of you hearing a big booming voice and talking to a burning bush, there is probably nothing that will change your mind. As for me, I do believe and have faith, I don't think anything will be able to change that. I do have questions though and there are times where it crossed my mind for a second or 2 that just maybe there isn't, but I always believe.

I do have a problem with the people who want all religious things taken down. Like the 10 commandments from public buildings and crosses taken off of churches if the cross is in public view. That borders on being a fanatic, they are forcing their belief of no God onto me. Just because they find the religious representations offensive they go out of their way to push their belief onto others. That's where I have a problem. Trying to remove "in God we trust" from money is ridiculous, removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance is ridiculous. If they don't want to say it then you don't have to, but I will. If you don't want to touch money that has God written on it then don't use money, use plastic for everything. I'm not cramming religion down anyones throat and I'd like it if they didn't cram their beliefs in mine.

I don't mean you and in you personally but just in general talk. LOL. People can believe in whatever they want to believe... just don't force it on anybody....
Uhm, I dont suppose you could explain to me how not believing in something is a faith? To illustrate - no child, born anywhere on this planet, knows what a god, any god, is. It is only when they are taught by their parents and/or world about them that they learn of the many thousands of varying faiths in deities across the globe. (Funny thing about the US Currency - 'In god we trust' did not appear on paper until 1956; and that was in response to the 'commie scare'; while 'under god' did not appear in the US Pledge of Allegiance until 1948. So, no, in fact, it has been religion forcing itself into, in the case of the US, the government and public; despite a very, very clear 1st amendment -

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
As far as what would change my mind? As Bill Nye so eloquently put it, changing my mind is easy - Present evidence of the claim. (Granted; the only thing that would change at that point is i would acknowledge its existence - but that still would not by any means bring about blind worship.)
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:21 PM   #54
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I'm curious to hear what law congress has made to establish a state religion?


And as far as displaying the 10 commandments in government buildings: lawyers, politicians, and other bottom feeders find it makes for a hostile work environment to be reminded that they shouldn't lie, steal, or commit adultery...
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:33 PM   #55
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Read "The Case For Christ." A journalist set out to look at the evidence in a non-biased manner, and ended up with so much proof that he really had no choice left but to believe by the time his investigation was completed. If your friend has trouble believing that a boat could be made to the dimensions laid out in Genesis, then there's no way he could ever believe that the great pyramid could ever exist. Yet, there it is...
The difference is, the pyramids did not have to float and stay intact. A boat large enough for 2 of everything would have broken apart. Bill Nye referenced this in the recent Ham and Nye debate.
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:43 PM   #56
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I am envious of those who have faith. It seems to be incredibly comforting. A coworker of mine lost her daughter to cancer last week. She is a very devout Christian and takes great comfort in the belief that she will see her daughter again in Heaven. What a wonderful thing to believe!

Problematically, I have seen much to disprove many ideas asserted by religion (e.g., Thor not needed for thunder, abrahamic God not needed for speciation or creation). There are many gaps and unknowns - death, soul, ultimate origin of universe and life... I just don't see how a bunch of people writing books 1,000s of years ago had dome kind of knowledge we are lacking... I would rather stick with, "I don't know."

But if that doesn't bother you, and you get something positive out of it, why not believe. But please don't use it as a justification to hate and make the world a worse place
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:47 PM   #57
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By the way kudos to the jeep community. This gas to be one of the most civil religious discussions I have seen on the internet.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:07 PM   #58
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By the way kudos to the jeep community. This gas to be one of the most civil religious discussions I have seen on the internet.
I agree.I was afraid to start this thread in fear that there would be a lot of arguing ultimately getting the thread locked.Thanks for keeping it civilized,religion talk can get heated.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:19 PM   #59
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X3 well done folks
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:34 PM   #60
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Maybe this could be turned into a "how to conduct yourself thread".Thanks everyone.

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