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Old 02-24-2014, 07:42 AM   #61
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By the way kudos to the jeep community. This gas to be one of the most civil religious discussions I have seen on the internet.
Agreed.

I find it even more surprising based on this particular site and average demographic.
I was once given a lot of flack here, both in thread and via PM, because I was not defending JoePa in the child molestation case. I thought he shouldered some of the blame and that it tarnished his legacy. And some posters vehemently disagreed and thought JoePa did nothing wrong in that case

So a thread about religion being this civil is a welcome surprise.

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Old 02-24-2014, 08:12 AM   #62
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God isn't the only one that can perform miracles(lack of a better word at 5am). Look what Satan did to Job.

I guess I look at it like this, if there is no God, I wasted a bit of Faith, if there is a God, non-believers will burn in Hell.

My parents lost my older brother and younger sister within two days of their birth, and I was diagnosed with diabetes at 6. Our family still believs in God.

I'm not trying to go all Westboro Baptist Church and condem people, that's not my job. Just giving my thoughts
First part is like Pascal's wager.


Personally, I believe and I have many reasons for that. The more I learn about the human body and the world and how life actually exists and maintains itself today I am blown away by the sheer complexity. I understand the science behind it well and my opinion is it couldn't exist without intelligent design. Most people think a God that existed before anything else sounds crazy. I think a small pea sized ball containing all of the universes everything existing is nothingness creating the universe and then differentiating into elements, life, etc and the universe just having a system of governing laws (physics) randomly sounds crazy.

As far as the bad things argument. People who believe this have a misconception of God and how the world is/exists today. God does not cause bad things to happen. We live in a world that operates based on free will and choice and human influence, and if you believe the Bible, sin is part of that world ever since Adam and Eve. Genesis explains all of this very well but basically everything in the world is tainted with sin today because of what you will find in that book. I don't want to spoil the surprise! Even if you don't believe or don't want to, it can't hurt to read and think about it, if you haven't. If anyone ever has questions or wants to have a mature, serious discussion about faith, feel free to message me. If you just want to argue, don't bother. I'm very busy and likely wont bother with it!


I also like how this has stayed civil so good job guys. You're awesome!

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Old 02-26-2014, 04:42 PM   #63
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No one doubts there was a Rome, and Emperors. There is much physical proof of that. Tiberius and Pontius Pilate are also in the History Books, and there is proof for them.

Yet, we refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and persecuted for claiming to be the Son Of God?

Although, that is also in the History Books.

So, there is "Proof". It is just through lack of faith that we fail to experience his mercy and love.
So, we suffer through our lack of faith. When our faith is strong, we don't suffer.

No one is good. We are all sinners. I'm sure everyone understands that.

The question is "can you accept redemption"?

Many people cannot, and I understand. It is very hard to accept redemption.
Many people just cannot believe that they can be redeemed.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:11 PM   #64
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When we question the fact that bad things happen to good people and recognize that God is in control of everything and, thus, the conclusion being that God allows bad things to happen to good people, we need to remember Jesus Christ, God's ONLY son. God sent His son to become a living, breathing human being (John 1:14), to lived a perfect life and only do the will of God (John 6:38-39) which was to die on the cross that we ALL might be able to have a personal relationship with him and enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 14:6) In the end, Jesus even said the phrase "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If God was willing to send his son to die and then turn his back on him in his final moments, why should he save us from bad things in life? Job is a prime example of that. Many times, God allows bad things to come along to test our faith. Whatever the case, I'm glad I'm not God because I wouldn't be able to make the decisions that He makes. Bottom line is that I have no idea why God allows bad things to happen to good people. But I do know that in the end, it all ends with glory to God and the end product is much better than we can think of now.
I don't have all the answers and, in fact, I lack most of them. But if anyone wants to talk or ask questions, please PM me. If you guys need prayer, let me know.
I want to echo the fact that you guys have been very civil and mature in this discussion. I find great joy in the fact that people are willing to discuss both sides with such level heads. Usually people get so aggressive (even us Christians, who can get much worse even) when someone opposes our beliefs. So thank you guys so much!
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:44 AM   #65
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To me, it is like the bird that eats the insect. To the insect, the bird is like a God. The insect does not understand the power over his life by the bird. And surely, he prays for mercy. In most circumstances, the insect survives. So, we are insects, before God, if we can accept our humility. Is it so hard to believe that there is someone that we are also insects before? Why are we so proud to believe that insects have a supreme being, but we do not? Get over yourselves. Accept that there is one above you. We are the top of our known universe. But, like the insects to the birds, there is one more powerful than you, above your known existence. To God, we are like the insects to the birds. We are his children, and at his mercy. I say let's make him proud of his creation. Just like we want to make our parents proud. Let's take care of his planet, that he created for us. Let's revel in all his beauty that we see on our off-road excursions. Let's love and nurture his land. A truly beautiful land, with colors that marvel our eyes, in all aspects of our lives.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:32 AM   #66
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And, if we, as human beings are the top of the food chain, how could we do no less, than nurture our planet. We must therefore, do it for our own survival. Not just amongst the animals and plants, but amongst ourselves. Do we really believe that the Dodo bird, with his beautiful blue feet, created by God, had no contribution. What about our blue eyed women and people. Have they no contribution in beauty and diversity? Wait a minute, was the Dodo bird a "happen stance"? lol. Do we truly believe that our own diversities have no contribution to the development of our existence and, our planet. Are we Dodo Birds to each other? If there is a being above us, the supreme creator, how can his diverse creations being ignored, to contribute to our growth and maturity. It's like ignoring Albert Einstein. HA! It's like ignoring God. Remember... the birds to the insects. We need to get over ourselves and appreciate the advantages of our world diversity. We truly need to love and nurture one another. This is why I am here. Why are you here?
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:44 PM   #67
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I'm agnostic in the sense I don't think it will be proven one way or the other. But basically a non-believer. Rather than the ark i'd point out dinosaurs. And how old is Earth according to the bible? Less than 10,000? I find that hard to believe.
They have found man and dinosaurs footprints together. They are not called Dinosaurs in the bible they are called Behemoths. They have found a dinosaur (dead) with blood vessels, tissue and some type of cells live or something not sure on that in like the last 3 years.
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:48 PM   #68
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fun fact ships are based on the dimensions God gave Noah to build the arc, to withstand the water of the flood.
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:54 PM   #69
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They have found man and dinosaurs footprints together. They are not called Dinosaurs in the bible they are called Behemoths. They have found a dinosaur (dead) with blood vessels, tissue and some type of cells live or something not sure on that in like the last 3 years.
Link with proof?
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:55 PM   #70
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fun fact ships are based on the dimensions God gave Noah to build the arc, to withstand the water of the flood.
Link with proof? Especially since boats and ships were designed by different cultures with no interactions together
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:56 PM   #71
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As far as noah's arc, If there was something that big, surely there would be some evidence of it. i watched a special about it once, they thought it was on Mt Ararrat. But couldnt find it.
They have found it, the bible even said where its at.
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:58 PM   #72
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Link with proof?
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/def...?itok=AVOFGk4w
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G7gTyn-fd7...0/130830-6.jpg

Thats 2 I found in a minute on google (eating dinner right now)
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:07 PM   #73
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Maybe do more than a minute of searching. 1) picture isn't proof 2) it's been completely debunked.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

http://ncse.com/cej/2/4/paluxy-man-creationist-piltdown

There are just two but even most young Earth believers have given up on that and it is considered a hoax by nearly everyone today.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:07 PM   #74
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They have found it, the bible even said where its at.
Again, link with proof?
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:13 PM   #75
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Again, link with proof?
Young Earth people are generally no different than those who watch Ancient Aliens and believe that show. The end result is different but both groups follow the same lack of logic to get there.

Even Catholic church doesn't believe this stuff. They believe in big bang (Catholic scientist actually first came up with theory I think)
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:19 PM   #76
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...........I don't judge you. I can not give anyone concrete proof of a Living God. But neither can anyone give me proof of the absence of one. I have chosen to live my life in a way I am comfortable with. I feel that for me and my family it is the one that has the most peace and comfort for us. I am happy with my decision. I am comfortable with what ever you chose. I don't have to agree to get along and have fun.
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I have no problem believing whatever they wish - in the privacy of their own homes. However; their beliefs, particularly those of fiction and those of control that is not warranted, have no business in the public square and especially not in government or education. Should those of any faith choose to bring it public; then they should understand that doing so opens their faith up to public scrutiny - and if your faith cannot withstand said scrutiny; that is the fault of the faith; not the scrutiny.
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By the way kudos to the jeep community. This gas to be one of the most civil religious discussions I have seen on the internet.
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Link with proof?
Bravo!! I think people argue so vehemently for religion for the same reason other people so vehemently hate or dislike people who are gay, and that is; if they were to hear, I mean really listen to an opposing point of view, they might have to work harder to keep their own faith blind. In the same way that being around a gay person might make you gay, being around an athiest or christian or muslim or buddist or. . . . might make you believe too.

Have your own opinions about God, if they are strong, you won't care what others think, if they are not, you'll need to be as convincing as you can be to keep yourself convinced.

And for the record, quoting bible verses is about the most lame argument you could ever make, you can't change a mind with a book only you hold true/relevant.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:30 PM   #77
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1st 18 years of my life I was a Catholic. Joined the military and fell out of religion. It was easy. The next 22 years I considered myself an Agnostic, bordering on Atheist. I wanted proof. Marriage went south and bills, two daughters and all by myself, I met my wife and she asked me to go to church with her. I found a peace I had been missing. I have been Adventist for 14 years now. I choose to believe and I don't care if there is proof or scientific evidence. It makes me feel good and I have met some wonderful people that are now my closest friends, including several of my Pastors. To those that say what about the bad stuff that happens, how does God let it exist. Remember God is not the only one. The devil is always present and will do whatever he can to instill doubt, disbelief and unfaithful. He is almost as powerful as God. How hard can it be for him to plant false evidence so convincing to those who want to see it? Think about it. If you want your 3 year old to believe in Santa Claus, how hard is it for you to plant evidence and make him believe? What if you had almost inconceivable power to manipulate the universe? Faith is what makes you a believer, in spite of "evidence."
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:31 PM   #78
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Young Earth people are generally no different than those who watch Ancient Aliens and believe that show. The end result is different but both groups follow the same lack of logic to get there.

Even Catholic church doesn't believe this stuff. They believe in big bang (Catholic scientist actually first came up with theory I think)
I was eating and high officials rape little kids, catholic church has been corrupt for a while. (Not saying I dislike catholics I just dislike the high officials in the church) Noah's Ark Discovered -- again

Do your own research thats just what I found literally in less than 30 seconds.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:35 PM   #79
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Maybe do more than a minute of searching. 1) picture isn't proof 2) it's been completely debunked.

Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" controversy

Paluxy Man — The Creationist Piltdown | NCSE

There are just two but even most young Earth believers have given up on that and it is considered a hoax by nearly everyone today.
Ill do more research this week but to be a believer you have to be a believe that the bible is true.
Job 40:15-24 - “Look at Behemoth, which I made along - Bible Gateway

they have found fossils with man footprints though its been like a year since I've searched it and have a new computer so no stored memory on it.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:51 PM   #80
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Non believer here. Too many bad things happen to the good people for me to believe that there is a higher power.
What determines who is good? You?
And, I guess that you feel that you are the best evaluator of good because you have lived such a good life?

Maybe you feel that the vicious media is the best evaluator of good. They set the standards on the news and in society on T.V. They tell us when someone has done something great. But, they don't tell us when these same people may have done something mean and cruel in their lives. I bet that if we put a magnifying glass on even the "so called" best people, we would see some horrible things.

I'm just saying, who says who is good. I think the bibles viewpoint is the best and makes the most sense.

We are all bad. There is not one good one among us. "Let he who has not sinned, throw the first stone".

Of course there was a Jesus Christ. It is written in our very history. Where do you think A.D. comes from? How, about B.C.? We are 2014 years after the death of Christ. A.D. = After Death or After Divination. B.C.=Before Christ.

If you don't believe that Jesus Christ was the Son Of God, that is your problem. I don't have that problem, I'm saved. Praise the Lord.

God loved us so much that he sent us his only begotten son. Mankind was so cruel that they killed him. God wanted us to see that. It's like the kids who see the ants and step on as many as they can. But, God loved us so much that he sent us hope. Turn to Jesus to help you in your battle against sin. Turn to Jesus and have everlasting life. If you think you are such a good person, why is it so hard to give God the credit? God is Good, you've got to believe that. God gave us free will. He didn't make us his puppets. Free will is a great gift. It made us rulers of this earth. But, free will made us vulnerable because of greed, envy and other evil things. That same free will gives us great choice and diversity, but it comes with temptation. If God limited our free will, would it be as great a gift, or be true free will?

Unless, of course, one believes that some super liquid, from somewhere unknown, created the trees, all the animals, and human beings, in all the different races and cultures. If so, where is it?

Did this super liquid do its job and just suddenly disappear? Then, it couldn't be that super.

But, if it was God, and he is that super liquid that made us, then it makes sense that he is still alive and beyond our very comprehension.

Science just needs to have God to be a Physical Entity. Faith does not and realizes that it is ridiculous to say that God is the same sort of physical form as human Kind.

Could a monkey understand how a spark from a plug can make a car run?
How do we expect man to understand how a spark from God can create life? We are an inferior life form, but we were created in his image. We can't understand certain things in God's Realm, no more than a monkey can understand things in our realm.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:56 PM   #81
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I was eating and high officials rape little kids, catholic church has been corrupt for a while. (Not saying I dislike catholics I just dislike the high officials in the church) Noah's Ark Discovered -- again

Do your own research thats just what I found literally in less than 30 seconds.
In literally 30 seconds I found dozens of sites debunking link you posted. Once again you poster something science and major religions (including non-Catholic) do not believe.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/noahsark.asp

I don't need to do the research because you're the one making the claims. Claims easily debunked. Claims Christians and other world religious leaders do not believe. You're posting stuff with the equivalent legitimacy of government 9/11 cover up
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:58 PM   #82
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Ill do more research this week but to be a believer you have to be a believe that the bible is true.
Job 40:15-24 - “Look at Behemoth, which I made along - Bible Gateway

they have found fossils with man footprints though its been like a year since I've searched it and have a new computer so no stored memory on it.
No, they haven't. I posted links debunking the one you claimed. If you are the one making the claim that man walked with dinosaurs you should provide proof. But there is none. The one example that was used was debunked and even creationist and mainstream young earth believers do not propagate that picture you provided.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:07 PM   #83
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Again, link with proof?
God is greater than man. So, a part of the understanding must come through faith.

To say that we understand God, is to say that we are equal to God. Einstein may have been smarter than you, put you were an equal human being to him. So, you can have complete proof of his existence and even accept it, although you may have never seen him. You could dig up the bones and do DNA. There would be your proof. But, God is not a equal human being. God is on a plane of existence above man. You therefore will never have complete proof, as long as there is a greater being than yourself. Only when you are equal to God will there be that proof.

Only when mankind gets over his petty hatreds, petty differences, and learn to love each other, can he possibly begin to understand God. But, we are hundreds and probably thousands of years from that point.

Remember, Mankind was created in God's image. But, the question is, will we survive long enough to realize our own divinity?

Or, will our greed, envy and cruelty, destroy us and this planet before we realize it? I don't believe we will ever reach God's image of us. Most of us still can't even accept him. How can we reach something that we can't accept or embrace?

You've got to work out your own faith. No one can give you faith. It is the basis of the gift of free will. A great gift from god, like the gift of physical life, with all its wonderful senses.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:21 PM   #84
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God is greater than man. So, a part of the understanding must come through faith.

To say that we understand God, is to say that we are equal to God. Einstein may have been smarter than you, put you were an equal human being to him. So, you can have complete proof of his existence and even accept it, although you may have never seen him. You could dig up the bones and do DNA. There would be your proof. But, God is not a equal human being. God is on a plane of existence above man. You therefore will never have complete proof, as long as there is a greater being than yourself. Only when you are equal to God will there be that proof.

Only when mankind gets over his petty hatreds, petty differences, and learn to love each other, can he possibly begin to understand God. But, we are hundreds and probably thousands of years from that point.

Remember, Mankind was created in God's image. But, the question is, will we survive long enough to realize our own divinity?

Or, will our greed, envy and cruelty, destroy us and this planet before we realize it? I don't believe we will ever reach God's image of us. Most of us still can't even accept him. How can we reach something that we can't accept or embrace?

You've got to work out your own faith. No one can give you faith. It is the basis of the gift of free will. A great gift from god, like the gift of physical life, with all its wonderful senses.
^^^^^^ and can I have proof that he doesn't exist. Lets use evolution as a example, In the time humans have been on earth we have not changed, no animals have changed. If we came from monkeys then why aren't they changing right now? Why aren't we adapting and beating diseases and get harder skin to withstand bullets etc...... If we have been alive for millions of years why is everything the same as it was? You need faith to believe in god not facts, is the point im trying to get at (probably bad at doing it knowingly)
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:23 PM   #85
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God is greater than man. So, a part of the understanding must come through faith.

To say that we understand God, is to say that we are equal to God. You therefore will never have complete proof, as long as there is a greater being than yourself. Only when you are equal to God will there be that proof.

Only when mankind gets over his petty hatreds, petty differences, and learn to love each other, can he possibly begin to understand God. But, we are hundreds and probably thousands of years from that point.

Remember, Mankind was created in God's image. But, the question is, will we survive long enough to realize our own divinity?

Or, will our greed, envy and cruelty, destroy us and this planet before we realize it? I don't believe we will ever reach God's image of us. Most of us still can't even accept him. How can we reach something that we can't accept or embrace?
You wasted a lot of time posting that. Because it means absolutely nothing in context.

I 100% get what you're saying. I disagree but have zero problem with the idea of belief/faith.

But I did not ask for proof of God or any god. Someone made a statement that there was proof of the following 1) Dinosaurs and man walking together 2) people learned to build ships based on instructions from God 3) Noah's Ark has been found

Faith is Noah and his Ark existed. Proof is we found the ark and here it is. I'm asking for the later. And pictures of a mountain kind of shaped like a ship isn't proof (especially when it's been debunked)
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"Not actually a backer of this thought"
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:32 PM   #86
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Interesting topic here.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:40 PM   #87
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Of course there was a Jesus Christ. It is written in our very history. Where do you think A.D. comes from? How, about B.C.? We are 2014 years after the death of Christ. A.D. = After Death or After Divination. B.C.=Before Christ.
I'm not in a religion debate mood but just going to point out that A.D. is not After Death.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:41 PM   #88
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Clearly GOD does not exist, but most humans obviously need to believe in some supernatural force to get them through their day...

Man's ability to think using logic and reason is what sets us apart from all other animals on the planet, but you have to throw logic and reason out the window to believe the Jesus/Muhammad/Buddha/Santa Claus fairy tale...

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:46 PM   #89
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I respect every ones belief but I'm personally am a non believer. I was a believer about 10 years ago but I'm the type of person that questions and the higher ups don't like people who question. After doing tons of research on ancient history all the way back the Samaritan and accunaki times and studying their texts etc I found that if you dig deep into the rabbit hole and do your own research instead of just listening to the television to tell you what to believe the truth will set you free. The history books taught to our kids in the schools are lies FYI....
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:49 PM   #90
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What is wrong with you people? What does this have to do with wranglers? This is supposed to be a community of brothers and sisters who love one thing and one thing only..... Wranglers!!!! Why in the hell is religion even on this forum?????????? "Disappointed" kinda sad I even came across this thread.
Everyone here has been pretty respectful...that is up until you posted in here. If you don't like it then don't partake in the discussion.

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