sanitizing history... - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 02-19-2009, 03:41 PM   #1
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
sanitizing history...

Cain and I have spoken at length about the removal of swastikas from toys and models so when I ran across this article I was reminded of how certain groups are attempting to white-wash away all the "ugly" history leaving us with a clean un-offensive story.

Word from World War sparks a war of words | IndyStar.com | The Indianapolis Star

Quote:
Tom Mattice said he was trying to promote a "healing environment" when he removed the old, yellowing wall decoration from a hallway at the VA hospital.

But in doing so, the hospital director has opened an old wound -- and spurred debate about political correctness, free speech and how to be true to history without being offensive.

At issue is a framed newspaper front page from an August 1945 Indianapolis Times. The headline: "Japs Surrender."

Mattice, director of the Roudebush Veterans Affairs Medical Center, said there'd been a complaint: A new employee was offended by the term "Japs," a commonly used slur during World War II.

So, Mattice took down the framed front page, which is now tucked away in the center's executive offices.

That decision, however, has riled a group of retired Marines who call it whitewashing history and akin to offering an apology that isn't due. They are campaigning to have the artifact put back on the wall, where it had hung alongside other World War II memorabilia for more than a decade.
Should we remove everything offensive and pretend history was all sunshine and applesauce?

tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 03:46 PM   #2
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Reminds me or George Carlin’s bit on Shell Shock’s digression to PTSD.

jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 03:48 PM   #3
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
How so?
tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 04:09 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Although he was probably glossing over some real distinctions, his point was that Shell Shock is a strong and descriptive term that means exactly what it describes. He gave two intermediate examples predating PTSD. His point is that we somehow feel the reality less as we add length and complexity to a term, thus making it more comfortable for the news to broadcast.
Quote:
In the first world war, that condition was called shell shock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables, shell shock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago. Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along and very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn't seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shell shock! Battle fatigue. Then we had the war in Korea, 1950. Madison avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, were up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It's totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car. Then of course, came the war in Viet Nam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we've added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I'll bet you if we'd of still been calling it shell shock, some of those Viet Nam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I'll betcha. I'll betcha.
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 04:13 PM   #5
Extremely Humble

WF Lifetime Member
 
Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Midland Texas
Posts: 11,549
Images: 12
History is history. The last time I checked there was no way to change it.
__________________

|
|

03 Rubicon | 36" Iroks | Chromo D44's w/Rear Spool | 5.5" RK LA | 5.13s | Armored Head to Toe
Scout is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 04:54 PM   #6
Pushy, Loudmouthed, and Ballsy
 
Dare2BSquare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Driving Around Arkansas In My Black XJ
Posts: 6,177
I heard Hitler was prone to farting at the dinner table. But, we won't talk about that. It might give him a bad rep!
__________________
99 XJ Sport
4.0l
AW4
NP231
d30/C8.25
3" Skyjacker lift
31 x 10.50 General Grabbers


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...are/TMLogo.gif Are all fishermen liars, or do only liars fish?
Dare2BSquare is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 05:02 PM   #7
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 24
You might not be able to change the past, but history is far too easy to change.
EvilRay1 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 05:06 PM   #8
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Tickle-down economics was a loser post Reagan, but given the span of a single generation they dusted it off and screwed us with it again.

The catholics have always done a fine job of selling the idea that the Jews killed Jesus, when the story actually says the Romans nailed him to a cross.

History is always written by the winner.
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 05:11 PM   #9
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
Although he was probably glossing over some real distinctions, his point was that Shell Shock is a strong and descriptive term that means exactly what it describes. He gave two intermediate examples predating PTSD. His point is that we somehow feel the reality less as we add length and complexity to a term, thus making it more comfortable for the news to broadcast.
I see no parallel between sanitizing history and renaming a disorder that's been dismissed as malingering since soldiers started taking up arms.
tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM   #10
Jeeper
 
Joe Dirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 1,075
Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. I close look at the great depression might remind people of what didn't work!
__________________
2013 Wrangler 2D, 3.6L, Automatic, 3.73 Gears, Limited slip in the rear, Teraflex 2" lift, 285/75/16 tires, LOD bumper & 8K winch, 2M Ham radio.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf- George Orwell
Joe Dirt is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 05:13 PM   #11
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
History is history. The last time I checked there was no way to change it.
Taught history is written by man and anything that is written by man is subject to his perspective.
tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 07:26 PM   #12
Extremely Humble

WF Lifetime Member
 
Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Midland Texas
Posts: 11,549
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
Taught history is written by man and anything that is written by man is subject to his perspective.
What? That's too deep for me.
__________________

|
|

03 Rubicon | 36" Iroks | Chromo D44's w/Rear Spool | 5.5" RK LA | 5.13s | Armored Head to Toe
Scout is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 07:52 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
h8nagn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 384
Scout I thought you said you liked it DEEP? Must be I was mistaken
__________________
Weather forecast for tonight: dark.
"
-George Carlin
h8nagn is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 07:56 PM   #14
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
I see no parallel between sanitizing history and renaming a disorder that's been dismissed as malingering since soldiers started taking up arms.
It’s the history of psychology. Seems that the more obtuse the term the less we have to think about it.

Collateral damage? Anyone? Champagne with that? Maybe some ordinance?
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 07:57 PM   #15
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by h8nagn View Post
Scout I thought you said you liked it DEEP? Must be I was mistaken
She did trot out “malingering”, so I dunno…
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 08:19 PM   #16
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
It’s the history of psychology. Seems that the more obtuse the term the less we have to think about it.

Collateral damage? Anyone? Champagne with that? Maybe some ordinance?

PTSD has very real physical markers in the brain. The renaming comes from a deeper understanding of the fact that rest and relaxation will not heal "battle fatigue". However, the removal of swastikas so people aren't offended is not from a better understanding of what went on in WWII but this incessant need to perfect our past.
tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 08:54 PM   #17
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
What? That's too deep for me.
Compare a history book from 50 years ago to a current one.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 08:56 PM   #18
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
Tickle-down economics was a loser post Reagan, but given the span of a single generation they dusted it off and screwed us with it again.

The catholics have always done a fine job of selling the idea that the Jews killed Jesus, when the story actually says the Romans nailed him to a cross.

History is always written by the winner.
I would be more than happy to debate those two issues in another thread.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 09:02 PM   #19
IITYWTMWYBMAB

WF Supporting Member
::WF Administrator::
 
4Jeepn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 9,970
Images: 5
It should not have been removed.
__________________
79.96.85.00.01.97.00.97.93.97.95.94
CJ.XJ.CJ. TJ. TJ.ZJ. TJ.TJ. ZJ.ZJ.YJ. XJ
4Jeepn is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 09:15 PM   #20
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
PTSD has very real physical markers in the brain. The renaming comes from a deeper understanding of the fact that rest and relaxation will not heal "battle fatigue". However, the removal of swastikas so people aren't offended is not from a better understanding of what went on in WWII but this incessant need to perfect our past.
Point taken. Still, psychological discomfort is often remedied by changing language or visual history so we don't have to look at or understand what happened.

The effects of extended battle and trauma on the brain are the same as they always have been. History is what happened.

I don’t see the removing of the swastika being motivated by a desire to perfect the past as much as a desire to obscure the past in favor of a more palatable fantasy.
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 09:45 PM   #21
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jeepn View Post
It should not have been removed.
Sort of an insult to the Veterans, removing part of their history.


Jupiter, I know all about ptsd, and I know it hasn't change. Medicine has. Sort of like Aids and Grid. Same exact disease, however one name was born out of misconception, as was battle fatigue and shell shock.
tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 10:01 PM   #22
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Right, but consider the continuum. Another few decades of brain science and PTSD will be leftovers, replaced by newer and better. Public opinion will still be a simplified version as it always has been, with the bias and generalizations.

Academia runs on a rotating system of terminology in the soft sciences. Not trying to step on your personal experience. You know about a human brain under stress. PTSD is just another term. Map is not the territory.
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-19-2009, 10:43 PM   #23
Jeeper
 
chasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 180
Hitler was a superstious psychopath. The swastika was a symbol of luck in a number of early cultures and was pictured in artwork, carvings, and on utilitarian wares, hundreds and hundreds of years before it was hijacked by Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, these days, the only association that the swastika has is with Nazi Germany. Most folks today don't even know the origin of the swastika... they only associate it with hate...
__________________
1951 CJ3A Universal: "Garage Queen"
1983 CJ8 Scrambler: "Project"
1993 YJ Wrangler: "Wheeler"
2008 JK Rubicon "Locked & Loaded"
chasm is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-20-2009, 06:04 AM   #24
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Hitler, Himmler and crew were occultists. They were well versed in mythology and symbolism and they used these techniques with great skill. Eugenics, however, is a particularly nasty bag. Trying to out think nature is just plain arrogant. The tools they used are still widely used today, and are just as effective.
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 02-20-2009, 10:12 AM   #25
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
Should we remove everything offensive and pretend history was all sunshine and applesauce?
No, when we forget history we throw away all the lessons it has to teach.

__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Found in a Montana history book 4point Off-Topic 12 02-17-2009 08:15 AM
Some history... N39-W120 General Jeep Discussion 2 02-10-2009 03:52 PM
Chasing Jeep History soupy1957 General Jeep Discussion 7 04-03-2008 05:21 AM
An amazing story (history) 4point On The Trail 1 02-19-2008 10:31 PM
History Lesson jjseel Off-Topic 5 04-27-2007 09:25 PM



» Network Links
»Jeep Parts
» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:10 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC