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Old 10-28-2012, 04:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Jeepers Creepers Silver View Post
by taking the fight directly to the petty criminal you unfortunately are letting them win because of our legal system and eventual backlash. The days of stepping in and stopping a crime while being a hero are dead in America unless lives are on the line.
I would say that statement is letting them win...

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^ that.
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"Any society that would sacrifice a little Liberty in order to gain a little Security deserves neither and shall lose both" B Franklin
I also find those two statements made in the same post to be a little disturbing...

I'm not saying I'm going to shoot the guy stealing $3 out of my center console, but I will absolutely sit on him until the cops show up. I will also sit on the guy who I saw breaking into YOUR jeep in the parking lot at lowe's, or snatching a random purse, or jumping a subway turnstile.

Could I lose a bajillion dollars in a lawsuit? maybe. But I'm not going to sit back and watch the world go to **** because I'm afraid of getting sued. Like I said, more of a "right/wrong" kinda thing. Saying it's dead in America to me just reinforces the need for more people to be "that guy". I guess I'll take my chances so you don't have to...

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Old 10-28-2012, 05:02 PM   #32
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...

I also find those two statements made in the same post to be a little disturbing...

I'm not saying I'm going to shoot the guy stealing $3 out of my center console, but I will absolutely sit on him until the cops show up. I will also sit on the guy who I saw breaking into YOUR jeep in the parking lot at lowe's, or snatching a random purse, or jumping a subway turnstile.

Could I lose a bajillion dollars in a lawsuit? maybe. But I'm not going to sit back and watch the world go to **** because I'm afraid of getting sued. Like I said, more of a "right/wrong" kinda thing. Saying it's dead in America to me just reinforces the need for more people to be "that guy". I guess I'll take my chances so you don't have to...
In order to have Liberty, you must first have society, society is simply not possible without commonly accepted rules, like you do not have the right to execute others. Even if they were gonna take your hamburger. Only then can we be Liberated - all of us. Dr Franklin was referring to things like the Patriot Act with that comment. God never gave me the right to kill over material items.

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Old 10-28-2012, 06:10 PM   #33
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In order to have Liberty, you must first have society, society is simply not possible with commonly accepted rules, like you do not have the right to execute others. Even if they were gonna take your hamburger. Only then can we be Liberated - all of us. Dr Franklin was referring to things like the Patriot Act with that comment. God never gave me the right to kill over material items.
Handing over your hamburger every time some lazy jackwagon demands it is a far cry from liberation or society.

I specifically said I'd detain them, and sit on them til the cops showed up. I also said I wouldn't kill someone over the spare change in my center console... You're arguing against your own assumptions. It is possible to prevent a crime and/or detain a criminal without killing them. It is usually possible to accomplish it without injuring them either, except in the eyes of a civil suit judge, which is what jeepers is saying (and I still agree with him), but I am not willing to toss my liberties in order to preserve the "safety" of not getting sued, which is entirely in the spirit of your ironic siggy quote.

I'm not saying you should unload an M2 on the hamburglar, but we shouldn't be throwing our hamburgers at him to distract him because we are afraid of the legal implications of tossing the big Ronald McDonald butterfly net over his head.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:16 PM   #34
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All this talk about burgers is making me hungry.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:06 PM   #35
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Laws regarding self defense and the defense of property vary state-by-state. Booby traps may also have their own series of laws state-by-state.

In general, my expectation would be that it's going to be illegal to booby trap personal property with something that's actually dangerous merely to prevent theft.

This is so because most (maybe all?) states do not allow you to defend personal property with deadly force.

While it may sound counterintuitive, this is good public policy--after all, it's only a jeep. Nobody, even if they're guilty, should be summarily executed without trial by a member of the general public via electric shock, acid attack, bleeding to death by bear trap, etc. just because they tried to steal a jeep. This is the same reason you can't just shoot somebody you discover trying to steal your jeep.

We have insurance to compensate owners, and the criminal justice system hands out penalties to the thieves. Nobody needs to die.

Most states (maybe all?) do allow you to use deadly force against someone who tries to forcefully carjack your jeep while you're in it, or someone who kicks their way into your house while you're home. But the right to use lethal firepower in those situations arises because you're defending yourself, not the jeep or your house.
What exactly in the above advocates forfeiture of liberty? You think you should be able to put a 12ga shotgun with a string to the trigger in your Jeep just in case some homeless guy tries to sleep in there? Liberty is not the wild west, it is individual freedom. Hell no I wouldn't hand over anything. I also won't escalate to deadly force over material posessions, which is what the above post references.

You need a conceptual undrstanding of laws to get it. A man can't resonably kill another man with his bare hands. Thats why weapons get higher charges. Also why kicking someone on the ground is ag assault, no longer simple assault. You cannot use lethal force, i.e. weapons designed to mame or kill, for material items. Disagreeing with that isnt protecting liberty, it is barbaric.

Lol, hamburgalar. I would steal him and make him feed me stolen burgers forever.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:29 PM   #36
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My point is, if you see someone breaking into your jeep, you can certainly run outside and restrain him, then call the fuzz. But you cannot run out, pistol whip him, and then hold him at gunpoint while your wife hits him with a tennis racket waiting for the fuzz to get there. Your level of aggression is not fitting to the intent of the crime. Were your child in the jeep and he weilding a knife, it would be different entirely.

We have courts for that, and God gave you and me the right to a trial by our peers, then a common and fitting punishment. Even if we are known guilty. Protecting that is liberty, not being vigilanties doing "whats right".
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:39 PM   #37
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id leave it outside my house with the door open one night and stalk it with a paintball gun.. or chase him down after you see him but he might end up bein some exmilitary theif thatll lay you out
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:40 PM   #38
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What exactly in the above advocates forfeiture of liberty?
bah. I meant to quote YOUR comment-

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I would add that most states do NOT provide civil tort protection in self defense deadly force, even when your house is entered with intent of or by commission of a felony (Castle Doctrine).
which I would say advocates forfeiture of liberty (your right to be in your house and own your belongings) for the sake of safety (from frivolous lawsuits that you admittedly could easily lose).
I'm saying that choosing to stand aside and allow a crime to pass based on lack of civil tort protection is unacceptable. Provided taking action won't cause "new" risk to any noncombatants, I will detain/apprehend a criminal without any regard for civil liability. I understand the risk, and I'll take my chances.


Everything you've said makes so much more sense now. My apologies.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:45 PM   #39
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I installed a starter interlock switch.

If the switch is closed The dash will light up and all but turn the keys and nothing happens.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:49 PM   #40
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I installed a starter interlock switch.

If the switch is closed The dash will light up and all but turn the keys and nothing happens.
That's a really good idea, or they sell battery disconnects which contain two screws that are easily removed. I once had a "friend" remove my club in less than 5 seconds with no tools. You could also take a couple of fuses inside with you every night.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:52 PM   #41
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That's a really good idea, or they sell battery disconnects which contain two screws that are easily removed. I once had a "friend" remove my club in less than 5 seconds with no tools. You could also take a couple of fuses inside with you every night.
It's effective. I have seen them hidden but I have mine hidden in plain sight on a panel with 8 other switches, but you could also wire it in a series where it is say switch one up, switch two down, switch three down, switch four up,
Kind of like a password.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:03 AM   #42
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Since this is about theft does any one know if leaving the doors unlocked is a way for insurance to get out of paying money. Since I guess they could say it was due to negligence to lock the vehicle. Just a thought since I'm guessing most of us with soft tops would rather them just open the door than open your top.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:01 AM   #43
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bah. I meant to quote YOUR comment-

which I would say advocates forfeiture of liberty (your right to be in your house and own your belongings) for the sake of safety (from frivolous lawsuits that you admittedly could easily lose).
I'm saying that choosing to stand aside and allow a crime to pass based on lack of civil tort protection is unacceptable. Provided taking action won't cause "new" risk to any noncombatants, I will detain/apprehend a criminal without any regard for civil liability. I understand the risk, and I'll take my chances.

Everything you've said makes so much more sense now. My apologies.
Ah, I see. That was a point of clarity. I certainly agree with Castle Doctrines in the fashion Georgia has (all force is authorized if someone enters your property with intent to commit, or by commission of, a felony, or if life is at risk, - individuals are protected from criminal prosecution and civil liability). I do not believe the FL "stand your ground" laws are productive. Too hard to know what happened, who the aggressor was, etc.

I will protect what is mine, and I will know any criminal responsibilities or potential punitive damages I am on the hook for - it may determine what course of action or tools I use.

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God", another Dr Franklin quote.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:05 AM   #44
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Since this is about theft does any one know if leaving the doors unlocked is a way for insurance to get out of paying money. Since I guess they could say it was due to negligence to lock the vehicle. Just a thought since I'm guessing most of us with soft tops would rather them just open the door than open your top.
When I was a Snap on man our door had to be locked, alarm on for the policy to be enacted when parked overnight. Not sure about a typical policy, but Im not sure I would risk the top anyhow. If they get something and the doors were open, cut a slit in the top where you want then call (Thats illegal, you shouldnt do it.)
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:50 AM   #45
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I wonder if car thieves today pass on manual transmission vehicles?
There was something about that awhile back and answer was no. While many people today don't learn a manual, most car thieves know how.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:42 AM   #46
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When I was a Snap on man our door had to be locked, alarm on for the policy to be enacted when parked overnight. Not sure about a typical policy, but Im not sure I would risk the top anyhow. If they get something and the doors were open, cut a slit in the top where you want then call (Thats illegal, you shouldnt do it.)
I'm sure you were kidding....
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:49 PM   #47
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I'm sure you were kidding....
Of course I would never advocate fraud. Its hard for me to understand how it is, but it is.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:38 AM   #48
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If you are really concerned about vehicle theft, get LoJack and let the police catch them.

Booby trapping any vehicle anywhere in the U.S. is criminally illegal and will get your keister sued off in civil court.

A Club is worthless. As others have said, the steering wheel can be cut or even bent off with sheer muscle power [seen it done].

Thankfully, Jeep Wranglers are not popular stolen vehicles in my area. Grand Cherokees on the other hand...
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:53 AM   #49
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For aspiring and unlicensed lawyers, here is case law:

Katko v Briney, 183 N.W.2d 657 (IA 1971) and Briney v Katko, 197 N.W. 351 (IA 1972). Nationally known case involving a 'spring' gun set up to kill or maim a residential burglar.

The burglary victim was sued for wrongful injury. He lost and the Iowa Supreme Court upheld the decision for the burglar. He was awarded $30,000. He spent only months in jail and had paid a small fine for the burglary.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:11 AM   #50
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Haven't you people ever seen liar liar!!!! Woman left knife on kitchen counter burglar falls through kitchen ceiling lands on knife and sues woman and wins. This is how you get shit done
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:06 AM   #51
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I didn't realize I'd started such compelling conversation.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:15 AM   #52
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While it may sound counterintuitive, this is good public policy--after all, it's only a jeep. Nobody, even if they're guilty, should be summarily executed without trial by a member of the general public via electric shock, acid attack, bleeding to death by bear trap, etc. just because they tried to steal a jeep.
Agree to disagree. lol. Thieves are scum that don't deserve to live. Man if only I was King.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:28 PM   #53
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Agree to disagree. lol. Thieves are scum that don't deserve to live. Man if only I was King.
Our elected officials feel the same.

If it werent for that pesky Constitution... lmao
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:57 PM   #54
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Agree to disagree. lol. Thieves are scum that don't deserve to live. Man if only I was King.
Back in law school, I argued mightily for applying the tort defense of "assumption of risk" to thieves on private property.

In other words, if you're breaking into my house or my stuff in my yard, you've "assumed the risk" that I might do all sorts of terrible things to you upon discovery, and so I bear no responsibility for whatever may transpire. My view was that the law should view that as the chance thieves take when they trespass onto someone's property and attempt to steal or destroy things.

Alas, the law in nearly every state disagrees with me--and you.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:55 PM   #55
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Back in law school, I argued mightily for applying the tort defense of "assumption of risk" to thieves on private property.

In other words, if you're breaking into my house or my stuff in my yard, you've "assumed the risk" that I might do all sorts of terrible things to you upon discovery, and so I bear no responsibility for whatever may transpire. My view was that the law should view that as the chance thieves take when they trespass onto someone's property and attempt to steal or destroy things.

Alas, the law in nearly every state disagrees with me--and you.
You should run for public office. And let me know where you do it so I can move there and vote for you! I have been making that argument for years (not as an attorney) and no one seems to agree with me either.
Everything we do has consequences. I think it is safe to assume that we have considered those consequences prior to making the decision to act.
I know that if I speed, and get caught I will have to pay a fine. I know that if I rob a bank and get caught I will go to prison. I know that if I beat my kids, I deserve to be maimed and mutilated... Why cant we assume that criminals are capable of using the same reasoning?
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #56
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Going back to Turbo-Kill. I haven't had my hands on the product but it looks very similar, although has way more options, than the REED system a lot of people put in their TJ's. I wouldn't say the cost is low for the product, I've seen a lot cheaper REED systems, so that doesn't bother me at all. The more common REED system uses just the magnetic option, not the remote or RFID chip part.

Personally, I like a cheap alarm system combined with a REED, and a proximity alarm. I know alarm sirens are often ignored, but if it's in your driveway I would hope you woudl hear it and check it out. The newer alarms (higher cost) will message you too if you like that stuff. I just hook up a siren that isn't common so when I hear it go off I know it's mine.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:04 AM   #57
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These laws are pretty nutty. I've been doing Russian Sambo for over a decade and our instructor has always instructed us to keep out mouths shut about knowing a combat style. While that "my hands are registered as deadly weapons" thing is total BS, if it came out in court that I have a long training history, it could be used against me regardless if I was defending myself or not. Ken Shamrock (do you guys remember him?) got into some hot water years ago. I guess he was working as a bouncer and some guy got rough. Ken schooled him and later he was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. I think the logic is that Ken was so far ahead of this guy in skill that it would have been no different than if had attacked with a knife or gun. Total bullshit imho, my feeling is that if you decided to approach a person or their property in a negative way, you've just signed off on any rights you have concerning what is about to happen to you. I've always felt that if somebody lays hands on me, they've just signed a contract that they fully accept whatever it is I may have for them.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:10 AM   #58
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These laws are pretty nutty. I've been doing Russian Sambo for over a decade and our instructor has always instructed us to keep out mouths shut about knowing a combat style. While that "my hands are registered as deadly weapons" thing is total BS, if it came out in court that I have a long training history, it could be used against me regardless if I was defending myself or not. Ken Shamrock (do you guys remember him?) got into some hot water years ago. I guess he was working as a bouncer and some guy got rough. Ken schooled him and later he was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. I think the logic is that Ken was so far ahead of this guy in skill that it would have been no different than if had attacked with a knife or gun. Total bullshit imho, my feeling is that if you decided to approach a person or their property in a negative way, you've just signed off on any rights you have concerning what is about to happen to you. I've always felt that if somebody lays hands on me, they've just signed a contract that they fully accept whatever it is I may have for them.
If you get taken to court for beating up somebody, your training will come out as evidence. You're not going to be able to "keep it quiet" unless you're willing to perjure yourself, which would almost certainly be discovered and make matters much worse.

However, as far as I'm aware, every state allows you to use a commeasurate amount of force to repel an attack or defend your property. So you're not precluded from using your training in appropriate scenarios.

Where you run into problems is when you either cause an injury much more severe than expected (such as if a simple sweep caused a fractured skull, etc.), or you put a hellaciously unneeded beating on somebody long after you've gotten the situation under control (such as if you follow your simple sweep all the way to a mount, smash the guy's face in with 25 elbows, and then keylock both his shoulders out of joint).

In either of those situations, the injury caused is well beyond what was needed to protect yourself or your property, and you could fairly expect to be sued, criminally charged, or both. At that point, your training will make it much easier for the injured person or the prosecutor to argue that you knew exactly what you were doing, and caused all their harm intentionally (rather than accidentally), which exposes you to greater liability and/or sentencing.

The practical point remains though that if you were untrained, you may have been overcome by the attacker altogether. So it's still better to be trained than not, even if you do have to exercise some care when using your training and, ultimately, must place a good bit of faith in chance and luck (such as hoping to avoid the fractured skull scenario noted above, where your training helps the other side argue that an accidentally severe injury was done purposefully).
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:31 AM   #59
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Couldn't you just plead the fifth if asked about training?
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:41 AM   #60
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Couldn't you just plead the fifth if asked about training?
Practically, no.

In a criminal trial, you could of course decline to take the stand. This would probably be a pretty bad idea though. Police interviews of witnesses and your friends and family would pretty quickly establish that you've been training for many years. So that wouldn't really be in dispute. All you'd be doing by not testifying would be denying yourself the opportunity to explain your actions to the jury and show that you're really a good guy.

Criminal defendants often don't testify because they have nothing good to say (e.g., "Yeah, I shot him."), and often have a history of dishonesty (e.g., "Yeah, I told the cops I wasn't there, but I was."). You'd be different . . . unless of course you had lied during the investigation and told the cops you hadn't had any training, which would of course be false. Then you look like a liar who knows he's responsible but lied to try to cover it up, and so you might not take the stand. But again, your friends, family, training partners, etc., would all provide evidence of your training, so that'd be in evidence no matter what.

In a civil trial, you could be compelled to take the stand. You could then decline to answer about your training and assert the Fifth Amendment, but, again, the evidence would already be in from other sources. On top of that, I'm not sure the Fifth Amendment would really even apply. I haven't looked at the issue since law school, but my gut tells me that you have a right not to testify against yourself in a way that effectively admits crimes. Testifying that you've been training for ten years really doesn't do that. It's more just historical fact than it is a criminal admission.

Bottomline: It is very, very difficult and very, very unusual for you to be able to effectively and legally "cover up" or "hide" facts in a courtroom. With limited exception, the law in general has a way to get to the truth.

The likely reality is that if the attacker was accidentally severely injured (e.g., the simple sweep that goes horribly wrong), your best path is to simply argue that and present that evidence. E.g., yes I am good at that sweep, yes I've done it hundreds of times, no one has ever been injured any other time I've done it, training partners testify as to your control and good disposition in training, etc. That is unlikely to result in your being liable or criminally responsible--you responded reasonably to the assailant, which is all the law usually requires of someone being attacked. On the other hand, if you just gave the guy a vicious beating that was completely unnecessary . . . well, then you'll have to pay the piper.

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Mike
2010 JKU "Mountain" Edition
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