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Old 02-14-2009, 03:58 PM   #31
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Consensus establishes norms.
There was a time when the majority of people thought the world was flat.

Fail.

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Old 02-14-2009, 04:48 PM   #32
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I am confused by the argument that exceptions can't be made to abortion regulations. Exceptions are made to all other murder laws. If someone breaks into my house and I kill them I don't go to jail, if I kill someone in cold blood I do.
I suppose a woman does have a right to an abortion, just like I have a right to murder someone, and suffer the consequences.
It amazes me that democrats are pro choice when it comes to killing babies, they are not pro choice on healthcare, or gun ownership, but when it comes to killing an unborn child, they are all about the choice of the individual.
I cannot understand the argument that abortion is not murder (simply look up abortion video's). So if abortion is murder, our gov't (regardless of you individual morals) says murder is wrong. It stands to reason abortion is wrong. Noone protest when individuals get sent to jail for murder, no one says "oh, well that persons morals are different than mine", it is accepted by our society and government as wrong.
So to me, if you take the moral stuff out of it, abortion is simply illegal.

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Old 02-14-2009, 05:31 PM   #33
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I am a demo - I am different tho. I like people to make a choice. When you do you have to live with it. I am all for people owning guns. Guns don't kill people people kill people. I am a pro-choice on everything.

to bring some light into this thread, EVERYBODY HAS AND OPINION THE PROBLEM LIES IN OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES EVERYBODY HAS ONE AND THEY PRETTY MUCH ALL STINK!!!
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:52 PM   #34
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To clarify rather than offend, I would like to see more distinction on articles of faith verses facts. In my opinion, to claim faith as fact is a sort of profanity that diminishes the value of faith. Any minister that chooses to blur this issue can claim divine authority and easily attach that authority to political matters and other issues that have no basic root in christianity.

It is not my opinion that the bible was written by men, it is a fact. The inspiration/direction of the writers by a divine intelligence is central to the christian belief as an issue of faith. If one is a true believer it would seem most important to be very clear about these issues.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:03 PM   #35
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I am a pro-choice on everything.
Really? So if it was someones choice to steal your Jeep - you'd be okay with that? Or what if it was some arsonists choice to burn down your house? Should they have that right? Obviously not. I think I know what you mean, but this goes back to my point on the basis of law.

Libertarian views, which I largely agree with, emphasize personal responsibility for the choices we make so long as they don't infringe on the rights of another.

For example I think it is wise for a motorcyclist to wear a helmet - but I don't think it should be a law, it should be his choice. However, we can't legally allow that same biker to drive recklessly on one wheel at 120 mph on a busy freeway and jeopardize the safety of other drivers.

Regarding the hot topic of abortion - if the unborn baby is a living human being - and what else could it be? - it stands to reason that killing that baby infringes on their right to life, thereby making the mother's "choice" invalid.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:09 PM   #36
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Really? So if it was someones choice to steal your Jeep - you'd be okay with that? Or what if it was some arsonists choice to burn down your house? Should they have that right? Obviously not. I think I know what you mean, but this goes back to my point on the basis of law.

Libertarian views, which I largely agree with, emphasize personal responsibility for the choices we make so long as they don't infringe on the rights of another.

For example I think it is wise for a motorcyclist to wear a helmet - but I don't think it should be a law, it should be his choice. However, we can't legally allow that same biker to drive recklessly on one wheel at 120 mph on a busy freeway and jeopardize the safety of other drivers.

Regarding the hot topic of abortion - if the unborn baby is a living human being - and what else could it be? - it stands to reason that killing that baby infringes on their right to life, thereby making the mother's "choice" invalid.
You can infringe on my rights all you want. I am like I said pro-choice. You make that decision to steal my jeep well my choice is the same as yours. I know it is a battle that will never end and we can all go back and forth for years on this. I believe you make a choice good bad or indifferent and you live with it for the rest of your life. That s a true pro-choice move
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:12 PM   #37
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I am not trying to throw fuel on the fire on this topic, but at least in CA, the government does not consider an unborn baby as an individual. If a pregnant woman were to be in the car pool lane and use the baby as the passenger, she would run the risk of being issued a ticket. And as far as the faith being truth bit, I have never understood that. Once I saw a bumper sticker that stated "The Bible says it, I believe it, That makes it true" Just because something is written down does not make it true. Ok, I will let this topic be and just observe now. If anyone wishes to discuss any of this with me, feel free to do it back channel as to avoid bad feelings on the forum.

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Old 02-14-2009, 06:19 PM   #38
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It is not my opinion that the bible was written by men, it is a fact. The inspiration/direction of the writers by a divine intelligence is central to the christian belief as an issue of faith. If one is a true believer it would seem most important to be very clear about these issues.
Certainly faith is central to Christian belief. Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." And I do believe that the Bible was penned by men, by inspiration of God. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (emphasis mine)

My statement that it was your opinion that it was written by men was with the assumption that you also believed it was not by inspiration that it was given to them.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:27 PM   #39
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This is why we lose.
None of these issues should be federal issues and yet Christian conservatives can't seem to get beyond these issues.

The federal government should be limited to those things detailed to it in the Constitution and no other.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:31 PM   #40
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I am not trying to throw fuel on the fire on this topic, but at least in CA, the government does not consider an unborn baby as an individual. If a pregnant woman were to be in the car pool lane and use the baby as the passenger, she would run the risk of being issued a ticket. Jeff
There have been cases, and recently here in Ohio with the Bobby Cutts murder of the pregnant Jessie Davis, where the alleged murderer was charged with a double murder. One for the woman, one for the unborn baby. Yet, it would have been legal, and not considered murder for her to abort the same baby. Go figure.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:41 PM   #41
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The federal government should be limited to those things detailed to it in the Constitution and no other.
I agree 100%

From the 14th amendment: ..."nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:13 PM   #42
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The Southern Plan was a big mistake, IMO. The separation of church and state is a protection for the church. The day the church was drawn into politics (and you can argue that it has been since the Romans took control of the doctrine) was the day it lost a great degree of authenticity.

I honestly can’t even define for myself what “God” means and that makes any speculation about its direction of published writing rather foolish for me personally. I am very interested in religion as a topic, particularly monotheism and its power to unite people culturally and facilitate progress.

If a group of people share a central belief that fosters harmony and allows them to more efficiently move forward as a group then the ideas that bind them together are real and powerful. Projection about whether those ideas are rooted in an entity that posses a personality and other human qualities seems somewhat vain. The bible also says that God is light. From a young age I was always suspect that this might literally be true. So there’s you deep thought for the day, and something to consider the next time you enjoy the sun’s warmth on your face.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:15 PM   #43
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There have been cases, and recently here in Ohio with the Bobby Cutts murder of the pregnant Jessie Davis, where the alleged murderer was charged with a double murder. One for the woman, one for the unborn baby. Yet, it would have been legal, and not considered murder for her to abort the same baby. Go figure.
yes, odd, how can you murder something that people are trying to say isn't a person? double standard, a bad guy can murder a pregnant woman, and obviously the baby dies, and its double homicide, rightly so.

but somehow the same unborn baby is dead to rights when it comes to abortion. weird.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:16 PM   #44
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There was a time when the majority of people thought the world was flat.

Fail.
You canít extrapolate that norms are correct, only that they are accepted by the group. The church famously has murder people for claiming the earth was round. Fail.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:19 PM   #45
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This is why we lose.
None of these issues should be federal issues and yet Christian conservatives can't seem to get beyond these issues.

The federal government should be limited to those things detailed to it in the Constitution and no other.
gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research to limit myself to what has already been stated shouldn't be issues in our government? i'm sorry man, we lose because our country is as morally bankrupt as it is financially.

i feel our country should have moral strength in its authority. it was founded on such. some of this stuff isn't in the constitution, because when it was written it was considered blatantly obvious. to them i am imagining it would be like saying put on pants. there are issues that were never even considered a thought a few generations ago, or they were less than 1% of our populations problems. now
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:24 PM   #46
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Projection about whether those ideas are rooted in an entity that posses a personality and other human qualities seems somewhat vain.
only vain because you don't have a relationship with God, our Father, the creator of heaven and earth, provider of all things good that cometh down from the Father of lights, omnipotent, monotheistic, tri-une God, also jealous, and all mighty. i could go on.....that is WHO (not what) "God" is, hope that helps
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:25 PM   #47
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You canít extrapolate that norms are correct, only that they are accepted by the group. The church famously has murder people for claiming the earth was round. Fail.
just because a sign says "church" doesn't mean its correct. don't confuse a "church" with God. and i don't know the specific instance this happening.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:42 PM   #48
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You canít extrapolate that norms are correct, only that they are accepted by the group.
Okay - I agree. But if the norms are incorrect and used as a basis for law, then they have failed or at least fallen short. For laws to be perfectly just there needs to be truth that law is based on. Majority opinion is not reliable. One could make the argument that that is why we are a Constitutional Republic based on rule of law and not a Democracy based on mob rule.

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The church famously has murder people for claiming the earth was round. Fail.
I never heard that, but briefly looked it up and it may be true. But don't forget, not all who claim to be Christian or acting under the direction of God actually are. True Biblical Christianity takes quite a bit of blame for what false religion has done. We are to know them by their fruit.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:46 PM   #49
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I agree 100%

From the 14th amendment: ..."nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
And that is where you work with the STATE to implement those laws. That is where you spend your money and political influence to get the type of society you want to live in. It's far easier to influence a politician that lives across town than it is to influence a politician that spends most of his time 3000 miles away.
Think about it. Tiny is a perfect example. For most issues she expresses a fairly conservative view on politics but when you go off on your moral issues you lose her, you alienate a good portion of the voting public by demanding strict Christian morals in your federal representatives rather than just demanding strict conservative values. You limit our support for no good reason because a representative with conservative values, whether Christian or not, will give you conservative judges and the judges are the ones you need in your morals fight.
With conservative judges Roe v. Wade will be easily overturned and then you can work on it at a state level. State level representatives are for easier to access and influence.
You have got to look at the big picture or we will continue to lose.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:51 PM   #50
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And that is where you work with the STATE to implement those laws. That is where you spend your money and political influence to get the type of society you want to live in. It's far easier to influence a politician that lives across town than it is to influence a politician that spends most of his time 3000 miles away.
Think about it. Tiny is a perfect example. For most issues she expresses a fairly conservative view on politics but when you go off on your moral issues you lose her, you alienate a good portion of the voting public by demanding strict Christian morals in your federal representatives rather than just demanding strict conservative values. You limit our support for no good reason because a representative with conservative values, whether Christian or not, will give you conservative judges and the judges are the ones you need in your morals fight.
With conservative judges Roe v. Wade will be easily overturned and then you can work on it at a state level. State level representatives are for easier to access and influence.
You have got to look at the big picture or we will continue to lose.
tell me some differences between Christian morals and conservative values.

but you have a valid point with many people, such as tiny, that is correct. but why, i don't think it is what you are saying about christian morals.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:52 PM   #51
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And that is where you work with the STATE to implement those laws. That is where you spend your money and political influence to get the type of society you want to live in. It's far easier to influence a politician that lives across town than it is to influence a politician that spends most of his time 3000 miles away.
Think about it. Tiny is a perfect example. For most issues she expresses a fairly conservative view on politics but when you go off on your moral issues you lose her, you alienate a good portion of the voting public by demanding strict Christian morals in your federal representatives rather than just demanding strict conservative values. You limit our support for no good reason because a representative with conservative values, whether Christian or not, will give you conservative judges and the judges are the ones you need in your morals fight.
With conservative judges Roe v. Wade will be easily overturned and then you can work on it at a state level. State level representatives are for easier to access and influence.
You have got to look at the big picture or we will continue to lose.
I don't disagree with most of that statement. I have just been trying to find out what the basis is for those conservative values you speak of. Where did they come from? What are they rooted in? What makes them more "right" than liberal values?
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:57 PM   #52
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I'm just glad this topic is staying civil. Bottom line is no ones opinions will have changed when this thread dies.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:59 PM   #53
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I'm just glad this topic is staying civil. Bottom line is no ones opinions will have changed when this thread dies.
i also am glad this is civil, this is a great conversation and exchange of ideas and veiws. and who knows, maybe someone will realize i'm right
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:33 PM   #54
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just because a sign says "church" doesn't mean its correct. don't confuse a "church" with God. and i don't know the specific instance this happening.
Here, I think, is a challenge for protestants, which is to separate themselves from the catholic church while at the same time accepting the influence the catholic church has exerted on the content of the text they believe is divinely delivered.

How can a group of Romans in the 5th century be divinely directed? When was godís hand in the production of the bible ended? If god is still active in this effort why is the book of mormon accepted or rejected as false? Eventually everyone must decide for themselves which scripture is true and reject other scripture as false. Does this mean god is actively directing each individual? This reasoning is far too subjective for most believers.

Like christians often accuse each other of selectively choosing which scripture to emphasize, I also feel a serious christian would study the history of the church and the bible in an attempt to not repeat past mistakes AND to understand the negative baggage of the church. To be involved in supporting an institution and selectively choose which history to acknowledge is rather schizo.
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:38 PM   #55
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gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research to limit myself to what has already been stated shouldn't be issues in our government? i'm sorry man, we lose because our country is as morally bankrupt as it is financially.

i feel our country should have moral strength in its authority. it was founded on such. some of this stuff isn't in the constitution, because when it was written it was considered blatantly obvious. to them i am imagining it would be like saying put on pants. there are issues that were never even considered a thought a few generations ago, or they were less than 1% of our populations problems. now
Gay marriage.
I'm not Christian. I don't recognize your right to dictate what consenting adults can or can't do in the privacy of their own bedroom and I certainly don't believe the government should have any say in who can and can't get married which is a religious institution.

Abortion.
I'm opposed to abortion as a form of birth control but I see a need for exceptions in cases of rape, incest and true medical complications.
This needs to be a state issue and the church needs to spend it's time and money on education and offering alternatives.

Fetal stem cell research.
As far as I know, fetal stem cell research has shown no promise that can't be duplicated with adult stem cells or umbilical cord stem cells. If you have a a true fiscally conservative government, how much do you think they'll be willing to throw away on researching something that's shown no real results?
Remember, Bush did not outlaw fetal stem cell research even when he had both houses as well as the presidency, all he did was say the government wouldn't fund it.

I'm fiscally conservative. I'm not Christian. I fight hard for what I believe in, I write letters, I campaign, I donate.
Do you want me for an allie or an enemy?
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:40 PM   #56
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Here, I think, is a challenge for protestants, which is to separate themselves from the catholic church while at the same time accepting the influence the catholic church has exerted on the content of the text they believe is divinely delivered.

How can a group of Romans in the 5th century be divinely directed? When was godís hand in the production of the bible ended? If god is still active in this effort why is the book of mormon accepted or rejected as false? Eventually everyone must decide for themselves which scripture is true and reject other scripture as false. Does this mean god is actively directing each individual? This reasoning is far too subjective for most believers.

Like christians often accuse each other of selectively choosing which scripture to emphasize, I also feel a serious christian would study the history of the church and the bible in an attempt to not repeat past mistakes AND to understand the negative baggage of the church. To be involved in supporting an institution and selectively choose which history to acknowledge is rather schizo.
Here is a great booklet to read - the whole thing is here: "The Trail Of Blood" by J. M. Carroll - BiblePreaching.com
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:40 PM   #57
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Here, I think, is a challenge for protestants, which is to separate themselves from the catholic church while at the same time accepting the influence the catholic church has exerted on the content of the text they believe is divinely delivered.

How can a group of Romans in the 5th century be divinely directed? When was godís hand in the production of the bible ended? If god is still active in this effort why is the book of mormon accepted or rejected as false? Eventually everyone must decide for themselves which scripture is true and reject other scripture as false. Does this mean god is actively directing each individual? This reasoning is far too subjective for most believers.

Like christians often accuse each other of selectively choosing which scripture to emphasize, I also feel a serious christian would study the history of the church and the bible in an attempt to not repeat past mistakes AND to understand the negative baggage of the church. To be involved in supporting an institution and selectively choose which history to acknowledge is rather schizo.
God's hand in the scripture ended with the ones that were there when Christ died, and within a couple hundred years. there are no author's in the bible beyond that. the only author in the new testament that didn't physically walk with Jesus was Paul, and if you need that story i can elaborate

and i don't want to offend any catholics so i won't go far with this, but catholicism is pretty far from the bible.
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Gay marriage.
I'm not Christian. I don't recognize your right to dictate what consenting adults can or can't do in the privacy of their own bedroom and I certainly don't believe the government should have any say in who can and can't get married which is a religious institution.

Abortion.
I'm opposed to abortion as a form of birth control but I see a need for exceptions in cases of rape, incest and true medical complications.
This needs to be a state issue and the church needs to spend it's time and money on education and offering alternatives.

Fetal stem cell research.
As far as I know, fetal stem cell research has shown no promise that can't be duplicated with adult stem cells or umbilical cord stem cells. If you have a a true fiscally conservative government, how much do you think they'll be willing to throw away on researching something that's shown no real results?
Remember, Bush did not outlaw fetal stem cell research even when he had both houses as well as the presidency, all he did was say the government wouldn't fund it.

I'm fiscally conservative. I'm not Christian. I fight hard for what I believe in, I write letters, I campaign, I donate.
Do you want me for an allie or an enemy?
to repeat my emphasis on gay marriage, it is beyond their bedroom, it is a governemnt issue when they want the benefits the government offers.

i have the same views on abortion, and christians do spend their time and money on alternatives. my wife has volunteered at a christain pregnancy center offering help and information about alternatives.

and it is my understanding that bush banned stem cell research, obama just over turned it, and began funding it again. and its not that the results of embrionic stem cells can be reporduced by adult cells....embrionic stem cells have afforded ZERO advances, where adult stem cells have afforded many. yet obama reversed bush's ban.

and this has been a very civilized debate, i don't see anyway i tried to make an enemy, please tell me if i have, so i can correct it.

edit: oh yeah, and when the homosexual agenda is forced upon childred in public schools, without parents knowing and even to the extent that parents are looked at as wrong when they don't want their young children exposed to it, is a government issue.
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:57 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by jpdocdave View Post

and i don't want to offend any catholics so i won't go far with this, but catholicism is pretty far from the bible.
You have already offended Catholics by stating that. It's incredibly rude and confirms my personal beliefs about certain religious teachings.
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:59 PM   #60
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Dave I HATE YOU LOL moving on. haha

To the gay marriage really you can't stop who you love. IF 2 dudes love each other great for them not my place to tell somebody you can not and will not love them.

To the stem cell research I would like if they found a way to do research on that in a way with infants that are still born and the likes with parent consent and stuff like that but to just kill a new born well that is Fkd Up!!

I am not religious by any means. So I am going to stay out of that area because I will make somebody made there.

this is why this country is so great along with this forum. We can talk about issues that normally would turn into a fist throwing brawl DAVE you would be the first I hit lol (dunno why but it would be fun). I am glad I have had the chance to learn and expand on the world that is changing for the good and the bad.


Actually I will say one thing about the church. GET THEM OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS. What I mean by that is having a church rent out the school auditorium on a saturday nite and or sunday morning. I really have a hard time with that. Ok continue

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