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Old 02-14-2009, 09:05 PM   #61
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You have already offended Catholics by stating that. It's incredibly rude and confirms my personal beliefs about certain religious teachings.
well that's unfortanate. that shouldn't be. stating catholicism does not hold to the bible should not cause offense. i would be willing to hear someone discuss it, and prove where catholocism holds to the scripture. and if someone wants to do the same to me, i am not offended, i am willing to discuss where my religion sits in relation to scripture. that is not incredibly rude, discussing and challenging is what this is about. don't let that turn into feelings beeing hurt, it hasn't yet.

and if i'm wrong, and catholicism holds to the bible, than please elaborate, i would genuinely like to hear it so i can be corrected.

i am completely open and enjoying this discussion, how is anything becoming offensive.

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Old 02-14-2009, 09:09 PM   #62
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Actually I will say one thing about the church. GET THEM OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS. What I mean by that is having a church rent out the school auditorium on a saturday nite and or sunday morning. I really have a hard time with that. Ok continue
now here's a huge problem, churches are actually the only group being limited to these facilities. any group under the sun can go in there and rent spaces in libraries and schools and so on. all sorts of groups are allowed to do it, but churches are being discriminated against. the facility itself blatantly has no affiliation with the "renter" why are churches not allowed to use the same space that planned parenthood, acorn, an obama campaign organizer, or alcoholics anonymous can use?

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Old 02-14-2009, 09:10 PM   #63
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i am completely open and enjoying this discussion, how is anything becoming offensive.

Having read the thread, I see no point, considering when someone disagrees the counter is to let them know they don't have the right sort of relationship with god. Have a nice one.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:13 PM   #64
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now here's a huge problem, churches are actually the only group being limited to these facilities. any group under the sun can go in there and rent spaces in libraries and schools and so on. all sorts of groups are allowed to do it, but churches are being discriminated against. the facility itself blatantly has no affiliation with the "renter" why are churches not allowed to use the same space that planned parenthood, acorn, an obama campaign organizer, or alcoholics anonymous can use?
Agreed to a certain point. MY dad was a school teacher for 20 years nothing more then walking down the hall way at my old high school when i was still there and finding come join the walk of life with Joy church or the such. The sayings on the flyers in the school to join god and if you don't so forth. It actually makes me mad too. I do not try and force people to not believe in god or a higher power but when people find out I don't believe they force it on me. That will get you into a fight with me and surely will not be pretty nor the person who started it with me will be happy at the end of it.
I truly believe they should not be able to rent out schools but to the obama campaign and most presidents they rent them out well because they are government funded and if you really wanted to dig deep they probably didn't have to rent them for that very reasoning too.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:15 PM   #65
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Having read the thread, I see no point, considering when someone disagrees is to let them know they don't have the right sort of relationship with god. Have a nice one.
the only time i spoke of a relationship with God, was to respond to someone saying they can't even tell who"God" is.

is it fare to say if someone doesn't know who i am, they can't have a relationship with me? i think thats pretty straight forward. no where have i said if you don't agree with me you don't have the right relationship with God, absolutely false to infer that.

so again, i think this has gone very well not being offensive, if i have been please discuss it, because i think so far everything is pretty straight forward.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:18 PM   #66
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the only time i spoke of a relationship with God, was to respond to someone saying they can't even tell who"God" is.

is it fare to say if someone doesn't know who i am, they can't have a relationship with me? i think thats pretty straight forward. no where have i said if you don't agree with me you don't have the right relationship with God, absolutely false to infer that.

so again, i think this has gone very well not being offensive, if i have been please discuss it, because i think so far everything is pretty straight forward.
I agree with you on that. I am very surprised. Lets keep up the good work!
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:18 PM   #67
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Agreed to a certain point. MY dad was a school teacher for 20 years nothing more then walking down the hall way at my old high school when i was still there and finding come join the walk of life with Joy church or the such. The sayings on the flyers in the school to join god and if you don't so forth. It actually makes me mad too. I do not try and force people to not believe in god or a higher power but when people find out I don't believe they force it on me. That will get you into a fight with me and surely will not be pretty nor the person who started it with me will be happy at the end of it.
I truly believe they should not be able to rent out schools but to the obama campaign and most presidents they rent them out well because they are government funded and if you really wanted to dig deep they probably didn't have to rent them for that very reasoning too.
sure, i'm not for fliers and things like that, but they should have the same right to access that space. and i'm not for forcing anything on anyone.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:20 PM   #68
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Like I said, Dave, no thanks. I have no desire to because I see no point after reading this thread.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:20 PM   #69
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sure, i'm not for fliers and things like that, but they should have the same right to access that space. and i'm not for forcing anything on anyone.
True your not pushing religion on me or anyone. I was just saying that as a point. Maybe you can answer that for me? Why do some religious people feel the need to push that on you when you don't believe. In the same sense I don't push my ways back or when I do it turns into a fight. Verbal not physical lol

On accessing the space I have a question on that. Wouldn't that be bring the church and government together again when they are suppose to be separate? It is a government building is why I ask. Now I see if it went to a private school then the private school can do as they like.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:36 PM   #70
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True your not pushing religion on me or anyone. I was just saying that as a point. Maybe you can answer that for me? Why do some religious people feel the need to push that on you when you don't believe. In the same sense I don't push my ways back or when I do it turns into a fight. Verbal not physical lol

On accessing the space I have a question on that. Wouldn't that be bring the church and government together again when they are suppose to be separate? It is a government building is why I ask. Now I see if it went to a private school then the private school can do as they like.
on the space, like i said before, the school has no affiliation with who is occupying the space. the space is made available for just about any group, so long as its legal, and civil. we have the ten comandments and things like that in government buildings.

now as far as pushing religion on others. its tough, i've probably been guilty, its a learning process. i'm amazed we've had this discussion and its stayed civil and unhurtful, it shows the maturity of those involved. people get their feelings hurt, or feel someone else is wrong.

i'm not gonna say i'm right and someone else is wrong. and i would love for others to come to a relationship with God that don't have one now, but me telling someone they're wrong and arguing doesn't make that appealing.

its sad that happens all the time, and people such as yourself are pushed farther away. its up to you, i've been on both sides, i've done the drugs, partied and drank. and i do the church thing, i can tell you what works better for me. if you wanna know you can ask me, otherwise thats it. thats my approach, but unfortanely many say how wrong you are for not believing and how bad that is or so on, again, to me thats not very helpful.

i can say the ones that you spoke of really want you to have what they have, and the happiness or feeling they have. but its not that simple. and then ending up where you said it does, just makes it worse.
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Old 02-14-2009, 10:23 PM   #71
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I hope this isnt considered rude or to be a flame post. For the record I would classify my views as agnostic and I dont personally care much for organized religion. As far as the gay marriage issue also argued in this thread, if a wedding was nothing more than a religious ceremony, then IMO each religion has every right to pick who can partake in it. Unfortunately, it also affects several legal rights and privlidges including tax status, insurance coverage and hospital visitation rights, and I cant see that denying these to some is anything other than discrimination. Abortion is a much harder issue to defend, but if exceptions are made for cases such as rape, and not many people would say that exceptions like that shouldnt exist, whats to stop a scared and desperate person from making false accusations and possibly sending someone innocent to jail. The other downside to a full on ban is that when someone wants something bad enough, they might break the law to get it. This has happened before with barbaric results. Lastly, and to shift back closer to the most recent topic of renting out space in public buildings to religious groups, and I need to roughly paraphrase someone earlier in the thread to make my point. What was said was along the lines of"Im tired of the gay agenda being pushed on the public, and kids in general" Some, and I include myself in this group, could justr as easily say "Im tired of the christian agenda being pushed". I really dont mean to offend with that statement, but theres some things that dont really need to be in public schools. Besides, dont most churches have a building thats normally used only a few hours a week and is designed for addressing groups of people? Again, Im truly sorry if I offended anyone with this, but I felt compelled to throw my 2 cents in.
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Old 02-14-2009, 10:41 PM   #72
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I hope this isnt considered rude or to be a flame post. For the record I would classify my views as agnostic and I dont personally care much for organized religion. As far as the gay marriage issue also argued in this thread, if a wedding was nothing more than a religious ceremony, then IMO each religion has every right to pick who can partake in it. Unfortunately, it also affects several legal rights and privlidges including tax status, insurance coverage and hospital visitation rights, and I cant see that denying these to some is anything other than discrimination. Abortion is a much harder issue to defend, but if exceptions are made for cases such as rape, and not many people would say that exceptions like that shouldnt exist, whats to stop a scared and desperate person from making false accusations and possibly sending someone innocent to jail. The other downside to a full on ban is that when someone wants something bad enough, they might break the law to get it. This has happened before with barbaric results. Lastly, and to shift back closer to the most recent topic of renting out space in public buildings to religious groups, and I need to roughly paraphrase someone earlier in the thread to make my point. What was said was along the lines of"Im tired of the gay agenda being pushed on the public, and kids in general" Some, and I include myself in this group, could justr as easily say "Im tired of the christian agenda being pushed". I really dont mean to offend with that statement, but theres some things that dont really need to be in public schools. Besides, dont most churches have a building thats normally used only a few hours a week and is designed for addressing groups of people? Again, Im truly sorry if I offended anyone with this, but I felt compelled to throw my 2 cents in.
no problem here, glad you could join in, this has been a group of people kind of aquainted discussing these hard subjects, so keep in mind feelings can get hurt, and we're doing really good not making people angry. so i don't wanna jump on you or anything, or scare you off.

but God is about the only thing this country is trying to make not allowed anymore. and as far as churches and their own buildings, some can't afford a building, and also the states and government are trying to make it very hard on the tax exempt organizations.

and there's always gonna be that percent of anyone who wants something enough is gonna break the law and do stupid things.

oh yeah, welcome to the forum to
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:08 PM   #73
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Here is a great booklet to read - the whole thing is here: "The Trail Of Blood" by J. M. Carroll - BiblePreaching.com
So I notice this Mr. Carroll is coming from a Baptist perspective. I wonder what the current opinion is about Masons serving as Elders in the Baptist church. Many of the Masonic teachings are very subversive to basic christianity, yet a surprising number of the leadership of this particular protestant group are indoctrinated by a fraternal order that many catholics consider specifically Satanic. For instance, the teaching that Hiram Abif was raised from the dead, and basic Egyptian/Osiris mythology.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:17 PM   #74
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Im all for most public areas being available for free speech of any sort. However, I feel that anything being advertised in a school should be strictly school related. As for tax exemption difficulties, some do go way too far. I have personally seen people though attempt to start their own branch of a church, have no real followers, and try to use the tax exemption laws because they didnt want to pay property tax every year or felt it would be an easy way to save 6% on their grocery bill.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:39 PM   #75
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OK, I need to chime back in. The homosexual agenda??? What exactly is that? To teach kids that if someone is attracted to someone else of the same gender that is wrong? To teach tolerance is wrong? I have yet to meet anyone who can prove that they "choose" to be attracted to one sex or the other. It just happens. Why would someone choose to be discriminated against and have the majority of society treat as a second class citizen? I have met gay people thru my life and they are just like the rest of us. They hold jobs, pay taxes, whine and moan about politics and religion etc. Please show me the "Homosexual Agenda". The whole gay marriage thing is not about sexuality, but about civil rights. Who cares if gay couples wish to marry. To make this kinda comical, men tend to have a higher income and pay higher taxes than women. There for more revinue for the federal government.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #76
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to repeat my emphasis on gay marriage, it is beyond their bedroom, it is a governemnt issue when they want the benefits the government offers.
That's my point. the government shouldn't be offering any benefits to marriage under any circumstances. It's not their place and if those benefits were eliminated then nobody would be pushing an agenda to get them.

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i have the same views on abortion, and christians do spend their time and money on alternatives. my wife has volunteered at a christain pregnancy center offering help and information about alternatives.
And yet Christians will spend vast sums of money and time to oppose a candidate that doesn't hold a strong position on abortion even if they agree on most other points. It's foolish considering you still get conservative judges which will give you the allies you need.

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and it is my understanding that bush banned stem cell research, obama just over turned it, and began funding it again. and its not that the results of embrionic stem cells can be reporduced by adult cells....embrionic stem cells have afforded ZERO advances, where adult stem cells have afforded many. yet obama reversed bush's ban.
Nope, Bush simply banned the fed from funding the research with tax dollars. The research has been legal all along.
If it weren't legal your argument that it had shown zero results would be useless because it couldn't show results if there weren't any research.

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and this has been a very civilized debate, i don't see anyway i tried to make an enemy, please tell me if i have, so i can correct it.
I meant that in a purely political frame. If you demand Christian stances from your candidates we will likely end up supporting different candidates, that would make us political enemies rather than allies as we should be.
Trust me, you'd have to work really really hard to offend me at a personal level and even if we were politically opposed we could still be friends.

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edit: oh yeah, and when the homosexual agenda is forced upon childred in public schools, without parents knowing and even to the extent that parents are looked at as wrong when they don't want their young children exposed to it, is a government issue.
Again, if there were no benefits to be had there would be no agenda.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:04 AM   #77
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One more time: separation of church and state is a protection for the church as much as the state.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:30 AM   #78
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Nope, Bush simply banned the fed from funding the research with tax dollars. The research has been legal all along.
If it weren't legal your argument that it had shown zero results would be useless because it couldn't show results if there weren't any research.
thats right, bush banned the federal funding, and basically no one else will fund it anymore. it has been explored for years, there isn't any funding out there anymore for the research bucause it has come up with absolutely no results, yet obama is gonna spend our money on it again. if it was promising, the private sector funding would be all over it, they've given up seeing it isn't fruitful, why is obama throwing money at it again?
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:36 AM   #79
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OK, I need to chime back in. The homosexual agenda??? What exactly is that? To teach kids that if someone is attracted to someone else of the same gender that is wrong? To teach tolerance is wrong? I have yet to meet anyone who can prove that they "choose" to be attracted to one sex or the other. It just happens. Why would someone choose to be discriminated against and have the majority of society treat as a second class citizen? I have met gay people thru my life and they are just like the rest of us. They hold jobs, pay taxes, whine and moan about politics and religion etc. Please show me the "Homosexual Agenda". The whole gay marriage thing is not about sexuality, but about civil rights. Who cares if gay couples wish to marry. To make this kinda comical, men tend to have a higher income and pay higher taxes than women. There for more revinue for the federal government.
if you are truly interested you need to look into the majority of the homosexual activists. i used to feel the way you do. let them do their thing, they have the right, whats in the bedroom is their business. and for many this is the case.

but, unfortanately, the large majority of the activists, are radical and are pushing an agenda. i've read newsletters from their organizations, and books about their agenda, and those fighting it.

this is where my problem begins. the activists want more than just to be who they are. they have an agenda, they come into public schools, and actually have stated they want to recruit our small children to their better gay lifestyle. there have been public speakers brought into public schools to speak to children of young ages about homosexuality, and beyond that, promoting it. no parental consent, and when parents got upset, they were made the bad guys.

there is a book in particular by a woman giving an exerpt from one of these "school assemblies" for children around 4th grade, i was disgusted by reading it, it was graffic and filthy, and i sat in my chair appauled, and shocked that any child heard these, much less it was in a school.

so please, before you can understand my stance on homosexuality, you need to get a real grasp on the ones that are trying to do harm to our country. the ones that want to be who they are, and co exist are one thing. i don't agree with them, but thats perfectly fine in this country. unfortanately there's a huge majority of crazy activists doing much more than that.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:02 AM   #80
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if you are truly interested you need to look into the majority of the homosexual activists.

How about christain activists?

CNN.com - Dodge City showdown at funeral - Mar 7, 2006

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This past Saturday morning I found myself in a five-car caravan cutting across the Kansas plains with about 30 religious protesters. In the back of a truck, there were signs that read "Thank God for IED's" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:19 AM   #81
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So I notice this Mr. Carroll is coming from a Baptist perspective. I wonder what the current opinion is about Masons serving as Elders in the Baptist church. Many of the Masonic teachings are very subversive to basic christianity, yet a surprising number of the leadership of this particular protestant group are indoctrinated by a fraternal order that many catholics consider specifically Satanic. For instance, the teaching that Hiram Abif was raised from the dead, and basic Egyptian/Osiris mythology.

Not a valid question, the Baptist church does not have elders, we have deacons. Just FYI, you might want to do some research before you attempt to pose a tongue in cheek question.

As far as the catholicism debate, I will say that catholic teachings and ritual vary greatly even from country to country, I have been on short term mission trips to Mexico, and what they practice as catholicism is certainly not rooted in biblical teachings.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:43 AM   #82
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Tiny if I saw that sign about the IED's and dead soldiers I would end up in jail for a very long time.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:46 AM   #83
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OK Dave, how in the world do you recruit someone to be gay? That is like recruiting someone to be hispanic or African American. You are who you are. As for what is allowed for assemblies in public schools, I was in elementary school in the 70s-early 80s, a pretty liberal time and way before everyone was overly sue happy about everything. My parents had to sign permission slips for anything that was not of a standard school topic. Even for things that today I feel is educational like a speaker on WWII soilders or even on something like the effects of drug use. Also, to call someone a "crazy activiist" is a very bold statement. If you feel strongly about something and you take a side publicly on that opinion, does that make you "crazy"? When I hear "crazy activitist, I have wonder what kind of activist you would be politically correct. The reason someone is an activist for what ever topic is because they see an unfairness in society.

Also, when you state that you are getting your information from a book "a particular woman" wrote, that to me does not stand up very well. That is all third party information. Not really a way to verify if that actually happened or not. Personally, I doubt any school would allow an assembly promoting graphic sexual content to ever be permitted, even if one were to get the ACLU involved. Parents do have a lot of input of what their children see or do at school. Heck, we even had to sign permission slips to allow the kids to play soccer at recess because of the chance one may get a scrape or bump.

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Old 02-15-2009, 10:50 AM   #84
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Wow, Tiny. I just read the link and that makes me feel sick. I wonder if any of their family members have inlisted in a branch of the military and if that would change their minds.

Jeff
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:52 AM   #85
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Tiny if I saw that sign about the IED's and dead soldiers I would end up in jail for a very long time.
Me too. Obnoxiousness knows no bounds. It cuts across every aspect of life. I have known a multitude of people in my short time on this earth and I've learned not to judge a group by the people who make the news.


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Wow, Tiny. I just read the link and that makes me feel sick. I wonder if any of their family members have inlisted in a branch of the military and if that would change their minds.

Jeff
They are a group of really nasty people, but they're also a fringe group who shouldn't be held up as a standard to judge all Christians.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:58 AM   #86
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Not a valid question, the Baptist church does not have elders, we have deacons. Just FYI, you might want to do some research before you attempt to pose a tongue in cheek question.

As far as the catholicism debate, I will say that catholic teachings and ritual vary greatly even from country to country, I have been on short term mission trips to Mexico, and what they practice as catholicism is certainly not rooted in biblical teachings.
This is a known issue in the Baptist church. My ignorance about the naming conventions within the organization does not invalidate the books on the subject or the fact that the convention has discussed this on more than one occasion. Why do you assume my question is tongue-in-cheek? I am sincerely curious about lay opinions on this very subject—have been for years. I’m not assuming christians find it impossible to craft an argument without attaching unsupported assumptions to the side they disagree with.

http://www.cloydsbooks.com/cgi-bin/cloyds/026510
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:20 AM   #87
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the term christian is used way to freely and openly. i use it in a way more specific term. those instances to me are not christians, i am using it as a term to describe people with biblical roots.

and yes recruit children to homosexuality is the exact term. and correct, in the 70's and 80's you needed a permission slip to sneeze in school, now the school will do whatever they want, and the parent doesn't have any knowledge, and if a parent does, they have no choice. this is why my boys are not in public school.
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:26 AM   #88
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OK Dave, how in the world do you recruit someone to be gay? That is like recruiting someone to be hispanic or African American. You are who you are.
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thats what common sense would dictate. i felt as you do before i started researching this, that is why i've made my statements before about really looking at whats going on, and the country still doesn't see this for what it is.

Homosexual Agenda - Conservapedia

The homosexual agenda, or homosexual ideology, consists of a set of beliefs and objectives. The ideology and goals, as explained further below, include indoctrinating students in public school, restricting free speech, obtaining special treatment, distorting science, and interfering with freedom of association. Like slavery before it, the homosexual agenda threatens basic freedoms, including the First Amendment.[1]

A primary goal of the homosexual agenda is to promote the lifestyle in public schools. This occurred quickly and intensely after gay marriage was imposed in Massachusetts, where homosexual relationships are taught to children as young as kindergarteners, as recounted by the decision of Parker v. Hurley.[3]

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Old 02-15-2009, 11:30 AM   #89
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I am very involved in my step kids school. And there is not any type of thing that the school would try to pull over our eyes. Even the books that go into the library are listed online so that the parents can decide if they wish their child to have the opportunity to check out certain books. Unfortantly some of my favorites from my own school days are no longer permitted due to people getting upset. Books like Huck Finn and Lord of the Flies. Even Of Mice and Men has been pulled because too many people found fault with the topics. I still disagree on the "recruit" statement. You can recruit someone into the military, a religious belief, even into sports. But not into homosexuality. It is not a choice. Do you make a consious decision every morning to be attracted to women and not men or do you just feel the way you do? Of course you do not make a decision, you just are who you are.

I just want to thank everyone involved in this discussion for keeping it tastful and giving me an opportunity to debate as I find this a very interesting topic.

Jeff
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:32 AM   #90
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from the publication that started the movement in the 80's:

But there is an agenda. They admit it privately, but they will not say that publicly. In their private publications, homosexual activists make it very clear that there is an agenda. The six-point agenda that they laid out in 1989 was explicit:

1. "Talk about gays and gayness as loudly and as often as possible." That was aimed at making people so tired of the issue they would want to give them anything they want to make them shut up.
2. "Portray gays as victims, not as aggressive challengers." That's why they exploited things like the tragic murder of Matthew Shepard. It was a tragic murder, yet they have used that and spun that to demonize people like Dr. James Dobson and other Christian leaders who have taken a biblical stand on homosexual behavior — people who have love and compassion for those trapped in that behavior.
3. "Give homosexual protectors a just cause." That was designed to tap into and exploit the almost innate sense of fairness that Americans have; to the sympathy that we have — especially liberals have — for those who seem to be disenfranchised.
4. "Make gays look good." That's what they've done through media campaigns, through television programs, like "Will and Grace" and others, where homosexuals are portrayed as the most normal, stable people in America.
5. "Make the victimizers look bad." They portray people of faith — people who have legitimate and biblical reasons to oppose homosexual behavior — as homophobes and bigots. They also try to "muddy the moral waters" by getting liberal churches, many of which have thrown out a great deal of the Bible, to say that homosexual behavior is just fine from a theological perspective.
6. "Get funds from corporate America." In fact, they have. They have gotten corporate America to sign on to their agenda, and it is very interesting how they have done that. It's based on fudging the truth — and outright lies.
By the way, the authors of "After the Ball" admit that the use of lies is perfectly fine in their struggle. Their main thing is to get people to believe them. That is all that is important.
What's interesting is that gay activists go to corporations and say, "We are an aggrieved class; we are discriminated against." Then, on the other hand, they go to corporate America and say, "Look how much money we have. We make double what a traditional family makes. We are a market that you want to advertise to and cater to."
Corporate America signs on — whether for domestic partner benefits, or whatever — because they don't want to alienate that market.

http://www.citizenlink.org/CLFeatures/A000000562.cfm

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