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Old 12-06-2012, 12:33 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by MTH View Post
That is incredibly poor logic.

You can certainly contend that taxes or fees on choices the government deems "poor" are a good idea for whatever social policy positions you support, but suggesting that they don't impact freedom is silly.

Let's say a bill was signed into law tomorrow that added a 50% tax on or a substantial fee to (a) everything you buy in the grocery store that's not on the latest food pyramid to encourage "better" eating, (b) Christimas trees or Menorahs to encourage more multi-culturalism, (c) cable stations that carried anything other than approved government programs to encourage "better" television choices, (d) single family homes because duplexes and apartments are more energy efficient, (e) clothing or retail goods produced by companies that don't employ a certain number of minority or union workers, and (f) private school tuition to encourage more learning in government sponsored institutions.

If that became the law tomorrow, would you really feel that certain aspects of your freedom to make your own choices in regard to groceries, holiday decorations, television programs, home choice, clothing, and schooling for your children were not being infringed?

Would your explanation--that "no one is forcing you" to buy those things--really make you feel better? After all, you could avoid ever paying any of those taxes and fees by just buying or consuming government approved groceries, multi-cultural holiday decorations, television programs, multi-family homes, clothing, and schools.

I'd wager you would not be pleased. Just because a freedom hasn't been removed doesn't mean it hasn't been infringed.

The effect of the regulation in those examples is that the government is confiscating your income to penalize you for making an otherwise lawful choice. How can requiring you to pay a penalty when you choose lawful Option A over lawful Option B possibly NOT impact your freedom?

From what I've read here, that's exactly what the "gas guzzler" fee does. You can argue that you think it's a good idea for whatever position you have on "carbon footprints" or whatever, but you can't say it doesn't affect freedom. It plainly does.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:10 PM   #32
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People these days are rather quick to point fingers and say, "I don't like what that guy is doing, that should be illegal." Wish they would better teach the founding principles of this nation in the schools.. But oh well, public schools right?

Worse is those people that think the law is a machine to punish and remove evil from society. That doesn't work. The purpose of the law really is to be a guiding principle to make society function better. And punishment oriented regulations like the "guzzler tax" only makes people rebel.

Scenario 1:
Guy blows through the radar. Cop pulls him over. Guy says, I'm sorry I didn't realize the speed limit had dropped. Cop slaps a hefty ticket on him..

Scenario 2:
Guy blows through the radar. Cop pulls him over. Guy says, I'm sorry I didn't realize the speed limit had dropped. Cop says, ok, please be careful now on; I'm not giving you a ticket this time, but a warning rather, in the hope that your own moral compass will guide you to slow down where necessary.

Which would you all think is better law and order?
Once you answer that question, please also say if you live in New York/PPRCalifornia or in some middle of nowhere fly over country.
I'll listen more if I get a hefty ticket. I'm sorry, but if I keep getting warnings, I keep taking chances. I'm probably not the only person who thinks this way.

I don't really get the point you're trying to make from that scenario though.

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Old 12-06-2012, 01:27 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by KittyPrawn

I'll listen more if I get a hefty ticket. I'm sorry, but if I keep getting warnings, I keep taking chances. I'm probably not the only person who thinks this way.

I don't really get the point you're trying to make from that scenario though.
Not me. I listen for a day to both situations. I bought a jeep cuz I drove too fast. I still drive fast tho

Same thing with the guzzler tax. Ill pay it, then ill buy another guzzler. I just couldn't drive a hybrid, similarly to many people here
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:01 PM   #34
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Absurd comparison.
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Originally Posted by Jeeperz Creeperz View Post
They always think that if you are against over regulation and government intrusion on choice you are for no law at all.

The reverse would be a government that decides everything for you, oh wait we are heading that way or should I say moving "forward" to that.
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I think Somalia is a PERFECT example, since that's the kind of crap that happens when there is NO government; which is why we see government -- in one form or fashion implemented throughout the world. Now, having established some form of government, the government needs to do it's job, with which we may agree/disagree to varying degrees. That is one of the most fundamental, yet overlooked forms of freedom that we enjoy.

So pardon me if I get annoyed when some guy doesn't agree with a given "tax" and he/she is prepared to trash an entire country & way of life for that. Many people have fought to earn & protect these rights; many more are fighting to advance these rights for the less fortunate who cannot fight for themselves. So please, take a moment to think before you choose to trash your country in a public forum in the future.

As for my personal opinion on this tax -- I don't really agree with it, because a gas guzzler is automatically taxed higher by way of taxes on gas (from higher usage), and think it's stupid.

As for the insinuation that Obama is somehow responsible for this (incorrectly), please get your facts straight. This tax was implemented in 1978.
Gas Guzzler Tax and Vehicles | Fuel Economy | US EPA
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:07 PM   #35
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Dude what we're saying is the government has a say in nearly everything we do these days. Always has a hand in our pockets. No **** Sherlock people have died for this country, and I respect that completely. What we are saying is government oversteps its bounds flagrantly and it looks like it will never end, only get worse.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:54 PM   #36
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Absurd comparison.
Of course it is absurd because it points out the absurdity of your comment.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:58 PM   #37
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Dude what we're saying is the government has a say in nearly everything we do these days. Always has a hand in our pockets. No **** Sherlock people have died for this country, and I respect that completely. What we are saying is government oversteps its bounds flagrantly and it looks like it will never end, only get worse.
You're calling the government the problem and wanting to cherry pick the situations
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by MTH

That is incredibly poor logic.

You can certainly contend that taxes or fees on choices the government deems "poor" are a good idea for whatever social policy positions you support, but suggesting that they don't impact freedom is silly.

Let's say a bill was signed into law tomorrow that added a 50% tax on or a substantial fee to (a) everything you buy in the grocery store that's not on the latest food pyramid to encourage "better" eating, (b) Christimas trees or Menorahs to encourage more multi-culturalism, (c) cable stations that carried anything other than approved government programs to encourage "better" television choices, (d) single family homes because duplexes and apartments are more energy efficient, (e) clothing or retail goods produced by companies that don't employ a certain number of minority or union workers, and (f) private school tuition to encourage more learning in government sponsored institutions.

If that became the law tomorrow, would you really feel that certain aspects of your freedom to make your own choices in regard to groceries, holiday decorations, television programs, home choice, clothing, and schooling for your children were not being infringed?

Would your explanation--that "no one is forcing you" to buy those things--really make you feel better? After all, you could avoid ever paying any of those taxes and fees by just buying or consuming government approved groceries, multi-cultural holiday decorations, television programs, multi-family homes, clothing, and schools.

I'd wager you would not be pleased. Just because a freedom hasn't been removed doesn't mean it hasn't been infringed.

The effect of the regulation in those examples is that the government is confiscating your income to penalize you for making an otherwise lawful choice. How can requiring you to pay a penalty when you choose lawful Option A over lawful Option B possibly NOT impact your freedom?

From what I've read here, that's exactly what the "gas guzzler" fee does. You can argue that you think it's a good idea for whatever position you have on "carbon footprints" or whatever, but you can't say it doesn't affect freedom. It plainly does.
That is a lot of words to simply say, "The US has never been a free country."
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:04 PM   #39
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You're calling the government the problem and wanting to cherry pick the situations

Umm, I suppose the thread topic actually "cherry picks" the situation. Or are you arguing a "gas guzzler tax" represents some plurality?
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:07 PM   #40
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In California, you get a tax subsidy for driving an electric or hybrid vehicle. I swear, I am so goddamn sick of the treehugger liberal agendists morphing this country. Maybe they should focus on stopping fraudulent financial statements on Wall Street before taxing Americans for what car they drive.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:08 PM   #41
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You're calling the government the problem and wanting to cherry pick the situations
No he's saying that a big government is not the way to go. A big government usually has socialistic tendancies, and we all know that socialism does NOT work. The government should return to the way it was 50yrs ago then maybe we could get out of this debt that our money crazed government has got us into. And before half of you start blaming Bush take a second and Google Bush's spending vs. Obama's. Obama's spending is 10 fold what Bush's was but all he wants to do is spend and not try to solve the problem. Obama has been avoiding meetings concerning the fiscal cliff, by how? touring around and spending more of our money thowing us more and more in debt.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:15 PM   #42
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A big government usually has socialistic tendancies, and we all know that socialism does NOT work.
No, we don't know this because it isn't true.

The greatest growth in the us economy was during the period we transitioned into a socialist society.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:23 PM   #43
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No, we don't know this because it isn't true.

The greatest growth in the us economy was during the period we transitioned into a socialist society.
Yes, public spending was needed when the country was growing by leaps and bounds; for instance the CCC. However, at this point things are so ***** up, the government is so large I see little hope for true freedom in the future. It's a shame.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:30 PM   #44
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That is a lot of words to simply say, "The US has never been a free country."
No, it's responding to your suggestion that economic penalties designed to discourage otherwise lawful choices somehow do not hinder freedom merely because you're not forced to purchased that to which the penalty is attached.

And in my opinion, the US is indeed a free country at least insofar as most of us understand the term "freedom." You apparently feel differently, but that was not the subject of our posts.

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No, we don't know this because it isn't true.

The greatest growth in the us economy was during the period we transitioned into a socialist society.
Nonsense. We are not now, nor have we ever been, a "socialist society." Nor has any socialist society done terribly well in the long term.

My opinion is that--with limited exception (and the are exceptions)--socializing just about anything is a terrible idea, and I frown upon the recent trend of socializing more and more of our governance. If you're on the opposite side of that belief spectrum, then in my opinion you're woefully misguided and I am afraid we will likely never see eye-to-eye on just about any economic or social issue.

So there's not much point in carrying the topic any further.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:33 PM   #45
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At the dealer to get my tail lamp replaced. Looking at the new srt challanger & see that there is a gas guzzler tax charge for a $1,000.00. Never seen that before. Unbelievable!
Taxed vehicles can be found here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/guides/feg2012.pdf

Funny thing is...the 2012 GT500 is not taxed, the ZL1 and SRT8 Challenger are! And the Ford is the BRUTE of the bunch!

The R8, Aston Martin Whatever, and Ferrari Whathaveyou are ALL taxed. Not one Porsche is on the list.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:38 PM   #46
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In California, you get a tax subsidy for driving an electric or hybrid vehicle. I swear, I am so goddamn sick of the treehugger liberal agendists morphing this country. Maybe they should focus on stopping fraudulent financial statements on Wall Street before taxing Americans for what car they drive.
Actually they did. It's called Frank-Dodd. It's not Champagne from Heaven, so not perfect... but it's a start. Some people however, would rather repeal it.



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Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
No he's saying that a big government is not the way to go. A big government usually has socialistic tendancies, and we all know that socialism does NOT work. The government should return to the way it was 50yrs ago then maybe we could get out of this debt that our money crazed government has got us into. And before half of you start blaming Bush take a second and Google Bush's spending vs. Obama's. Obama's spending is 10 fold what Bush's was but all he wants to do is spend and not try to solve the problem. Obama has been avoiding meetings concerning the fiscal cliff, by how? touring around and spending more of our money thowing us more and more in debt.
Actually, taxes were much higher 50 years ago. Look it up. Women/races weren't as equal. Are you saying you would rather go back to that? It's very easy to see the positives of an era gone by, but realize that even those times had "unacceptable" things going on. So things are not always black & white.

Also, can you please provide a source for your claim of "Obama's spending is 10 fold what Bush's"?
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #47
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Simply put, a government should enforce formal equality but not material equality. IOW, government has no business enforcing equality of outcomes. Its sole duty is to enforce the rules of the game (life, liberty, property), not to choose the winners and losers.

Which does the "gas guzzler tax" do?
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:59 PM   #48
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Actually they did. It's called Frank-Dodd. It's not Champagne from Heaven, so not perfect... but it's a start. Some people however, would rather repeal it.





Actually, taxes were much higher 50 years ago. Look it up. Women/races weren't as equal. Are you saying you would rather go back to that? It's very easy to see the positives of an era gone by, but realize that even those times had "unacceptable" things going on. So things are not always black & white.

Also, can you please provide a source for your claim of "Obama's spending is 10 fold what Bush's"?
By the 50yrs ago quote I was refering to the size of government, and while there might have been higher taxes there were less taxes but I do wish somethings were the same as it was back then (less murder, kidnappings, and you dont have to worry about everyone sueing you)

I admit I embelished abit by 10 fold but everything is almost twice as expensive now and our debt it almost twice what it was before bama got into office
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:06 PM   #49
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I'll listen more if I get a hefty ticket. I'm sorry, but if I keep getting warnings, I keep taking chances. I'm probably not the only person who thinks this way.

I don't really get the point you're trying to make from that scenario though.
I guess, the biggest requirement for a free country is responsible and honest citizenry. So maybe government, while being a symptom, is not really the root of the problem?
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:13 PM   #50
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By the 50yrs ago quote I was refering to the size of government, and while there might have been higher taxes there were less taxes but I do wish somethings were the same as it was back then (less murder, kidnappings, and you dont have to worry about everyone sueing you)

I admit I embelished abit by 10 fold but everything is almost twice as expensive now and our debt it almost twice what it was before bama got into office
I'm sorry I'm a little confused... you're getting government & citizens confused. Govt shd try to stop murder, kidnappings, etc... for which they need laws and hire people for whom they need to pay salaries via taxes. So you can't really have the cake and eat it too. The world is a lot more complicated than it was 50 yrs ago.

Your graphic ... nice. But as we saw from the most recent polling experiences, numbers can be twisted to say anything and key is definitions. This does not have one.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:17 PM   #51
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Of course it is absurd because it points out the absurdity of your comment.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:22 PM   #52
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I'm sorry I'm a little confused... you're getting government & citizens confused. Govt shd try to stop murder, kidnappings, etc... for which they need laws and hire people for whom they need to pay salaries via taxes. So you can't really have the cake and eat it too. The world is a lot more complicated than it was 50 yrs ago.

Your graphic ... nice. But as we saw from the most recent polling experiences, numbers can be twisted to say anything and key is definitions. This does not have one.
I was talking about wishing the world wasnt as complicated

And your right numbers can be twisted, just look at the un employment rate that came out right before the election
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:30 PM   #53
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I was talking about wishing the world wasnt as complicated

And your right numbers can be twisted, just look at the un employment rate that came out right before the election
hahaha
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:41 PM   #54
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Sticker from my '07 GT500 vert shows a $1300 gas guzzler tax.

I bought it used at three years old, but I'm sure the original buyer that could afford it at sticker shrugged it off.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:49 PM   #55
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I paid over $4K of it on a previous car. It's truly sickening... did that tax change anything??? No. Was it used with prudence by the government? No. Did it change my behavior? No.
It serves no purpose other than raising funds that are wasted anyway... ultimately, it went to China.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:03 PM   #56
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The biggest problem is that politicians think that if they are not always creating new laws and regulations then they are not justifying why they got elected in the first place.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:09 PM   #57
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The biggest problem is that politicians think that if they are not always creating new laws and regulations then they are not justifying why they got elected in the first place.
Amen... when I hear "gridlock in Washington," I think, "Good!!! They're no screwing anything up!"
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:33 PM   #58
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At the risk of being audited by the IRS for saying this, I would move to any state that had a serious and intellectual group considering secession. Maybe Texas. We need some place where the free market and a more libertarian way of thinking is the norm. I think it is time to consolidate us like-minded folks and let the rest of the sheeple find out the hard way the consequences of socialism and runaway government growth.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:06 PM   #59
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People these days are rather quick to point fingers and say, "I don't like what that guy is doing, that should be illegal." Wish they would better teach the founding principles of this nation in the schools.. But oh well, public schools right?

Worse is those people that think the law is a machine to punish and remove evil from society. That doesn't work. The purpose of the law really is to be a guiding principle to make society function better. And punishment oriented regulations like the "guzzler tax" only makes people rebel.

Scenario 1:
Guy blows through the radar. Cop pulls him over. Guy says, I'm sorry I didn't realize the speed limit had dropped. Cop slaps a hefty ticket on him..

Scenario 2:
Guy blows through the radar. Cop pulls him over. Guy says, I'm sorry I didn't realize the speed limit had dropped. Cop says, ok, please be careful now on; I'm not giving you a ticket this time, but a warning rather, in the hope that your own moral compass will guide you to slow down where necessary.

Which would you all think is better law and order?
Once you answer that question, please also say if you live in New York/PPRCalifornia or in some middle of nowhere fly over country.
I'll play this game. I was pulled over once on a street that had changed the speed limit from 45 to 35, I was going 45 still. I gave the honest confused look to the cop, and asked him if he was sure about the speed limit before he told me it had been changed, he let me off with a warning.

I drove down the same street 3 months later forgetting about the speed limit change again, this time when I got pulled over I realized what I had done, appologized about it explaining I was on my way to the hospital and had a lot on my mind and forgot the change (honest reason). This time I got a ticket - mostly I believe because I admitted I knew about the change in speed. He wrote it down so it was only a fine and didn't go on my record.

I now avoid that street all together, I never used it much anyhow and I can use the highway nearby instead. OKC downtown area btw.

I honestly think a warning is enough for some people, but others won't change their driving habits unless given a hefty ticket.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:05 PM   #60
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I don't see a difference between the gas guzzler tax and a regular sales tax. I buy a new vehicle and I pay a tax based on its value. If it happens to be a car with a V8, I pay an extra tax.

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