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Old 12-10-2012, 05:25 PM   #181
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How the hell is this still in JK tech? Same with that disastrous wheel thread. Nothing good comes of this. No one cares what anyone elses opinion is.

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Old 12-10-2012, 05:26 PM   #182
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Government stimulus is like taking a cup full of water (taxes) out of the deep end of the pool (USA economy), drinking most of it (cost of bureaucratic inefficiency) and pouring the rest (stimulus) into the shallow end to raise the level of the pool.

The fact you drink pool water might indicate why this is such a bad analogy.

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Old 12-10-2012, 05:28 PM   #183
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How the hell is this still in JK tech? Same with that disastrous wheel thread. Nothing good comes of this. No one cares what anyone elses opinion is.
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Is that your opinion? LOL
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:32 PM   #184
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Is that your opinion? LOL
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:39 PM   #185
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You're confusing word count with "analysis" and by analysis you mean substance.

"a penalty is a penalty" what does that have to do with whether or not government spending benefits the citizens?

You don't argue what anyone is actually discussing.
I am not confusing anything, and I meant "analysis."

You understand that the "penalty is a penalty" comment refered to matters discussed earlier. The conversation has since moved on of course, but you brought it up.

Now where were we . . . Oh yes--is it fair to say that you believe more government spending would be per se good for taxpayers, whereas less government spending would be per se bad for taxpayers?

Is that correct or not? Most of your responses have just been insults, but I'm actually trying to get a sense of your opinion on these issues.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:44 PM   #186
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The notion of cutting taxes will certainly stimulate the economy is just an example of being ignorant on the subject.

Cutting taxes only grows an economy if that money is then put back in the economy through expenditures.
So which is it, cushy gov't job, union job with 10 weeks of vacation a year, what part of the system are you dependent on?
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:53 PM   #187
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I guess this will be a useless thread once all the oil is gone!
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:24 PM   #188
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Most of your responses have just been insults, but I'm actually trying to get a sense of your opinion on these issues.
Nevermind. I went back and read through a sampling of your post history.

You work in "economic development," working either to promulgate or to secure government incentives for private industry. You believe the Internet and Microsoft would never have happened without government regulation or incentive.

On top of that, I'm going to speculate you're under 30. A recent grad from either an undergraduate or graduate program at a left leaning institution. You probably wanted to work in this field while you were there, and you're passionate about it and the importance of government involvement.

I think you're bright but probably misguided on a lot of economic issues. Time will tell.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:08 PM   #189
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Wow. Interesting read, though I didn't go too far back.

Doesn't anyone else (besides you Fun Killin Ninja ) get that federal spending is the EXACT same as you handing me a 20$ bill, me taking 5$, spending 5$ on what I pick, and giving you 10$ back - with strings on how to spend it?

Read the Constitution, and ask yourself "Is that the governance we have?".

Remember, we are the 50 States (countries) of the American Nation. Too much federal control was never intended. My brother believes that the "Life, Liberty, and Pusuit.." clause enables federal healthcare. I say that the verbage of the 10th Amendment is VERY clear. If the Constitution doesn't say the feds can, or that the states can't, it is the right of the states respectively or people (national ballot initiative). Can Mass make you buy healthcare? Yup. And NY can say no 40oz cokes. But the feds can't tell me much, or at least according to the Founders of my Nation.

Of course, amendments change that - but how do those happen again?

My shillings.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:42 PM   #190
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"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

Sir Winston Churchill
Date: 1903
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:26 PM   #191
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A few I find relavent to taxation and federal reach. Best to listen to those that wrote the book, right?

"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people. To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition."
"A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
"If we were directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we would soon want for bread."
"Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money."
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" – Thomas Jefferson

"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
"Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government." – James Madison

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." – Patrick Henry

"I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity. [To approve the measure] would be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded."*-- President Franklin Pierce's 1854 veto of a measure to help the mentally ill.

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." - George Washington

"The Constitution only guarantees the American people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself."
"It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth part."
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
"This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins."
"There is no kind of dishonesty into which otherwise good people more easily and more frequently fall than that of defrauding the government."
"I am a mortal enemy to arbitrary government and unlimited power. I am naturally very jealous for the rights and liberties of my country, and the least encroachment of those invaluable privileges is apt to make my blood boil."
" ... as all history informs us, there has been in every State & Kingdom a constant kind of warfare between the governing & governed: the one striving to obtain more for its support, and the other to pay less. And this has alone occasioned great convulsions, actual civil wars, ending either in dethroning of the Princes, or enslaving of the people. Generally indeed the ruling power carries its point, the revenues of princes constantly increasing, and we see that they are never satisfied, but always in want of more. The more the people are discontented with the oppression of taxes; the greater need the prince has of money to distribute among his partisans and pay the troops that are to suppress all resistance, and enable him to plunder at pleasure. There is scarce a king in a hundred who would not, if he could, follow the example of Pharaoh, get first all the peoples money, then all their lands, and then make them and their children servants for ever ..." - Benjamin Franklin
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:24 PM   #192
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Wow. Interesting read, though I didn't go too far back.

Doesn't anyone else (besides you Fun Killin Ninja ) get that federal spending is the EXACT same as you handing me a 20$ bill, me taking 5$, spending 5$ on what I pick, and giving you 10$ back - with strings on how to spend it?

Read the Constitution, and ask yourself "Is that the governance we have?".

Remember, we are the 50 States (countries) of the American Nation. Too much federal control was never intended. My brother believes that the "Life, Liberty, and Pusuit.." clause enables federal healthcare. I say that the verbage of the 10th Amendment is VERY clear. If the Constitution doesn't say the feds can, or that the states can't, it is the right of the states respectively or people (national ballot initiative). Can Mass make you buy healthcare? Yup. And NY can say no 40oz cokes. But the feds can't tell me much, or at least according to the Founders of my Nation.

Of course, amendments change that - but how do those happen again?

My shillings.

Well said!

I'm not sure everyone can grasp what was the intent of our federalist system. Besides, it isn't our people or ideas that make this country great, it's pur "infrastructure"!

The government giveth, the government taketh away, blessed be the name of government.

Let's just all hope the gas guzzler tax doesn't have its weight limit increased. I'd love to see some of those in full support when it's their ox getting gored.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:39 PM   #193
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Yes, but we have also given a tax break to my brother, for example, who is a homeowning small business owner father of 3, for buying a Tundra, in a bill guised to further subsidize the American Farmer in blagrant disregard for the Free Market and its principals. That is equally unacceptable, as he has numrous tax "freebies" already, while many friends of mine who have no kids, do not own, and are "double tax" employed pay higher rates at lower wages, and couldn't "afford" (cause it is all credit anyway) a 15k$ truck to get the discount tax window come April.

We need equality and Liberty in America again. They are sorely missed.

And bare in mind I say this full well knowing if, God forbid, something were to happen to him I would feel obligated to care for his kin. Local is where it should be, and equal is how it should apply. I love that he gets discounts, I get better gifts - but it isn't right.

Also we can't have bridges falling down. We have a fundamental problem with not only what we spend, but also where.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:14 AM   #194
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The problem is we have too many voters that are recipients of those tax receipts. Welfare recipients, Occupiers trying to get their student loans forgiven, gov't workers, union workers, affirmative action beneficiaries (gov't contracts), all of them get (or hope to get) money funneled back to them from the gov't. And they collectively comprise a large enough part of the voting population that us damn fools working 60 hour weeks in the private sector as salaried employees cannot stop them. We cannot stop them.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:49 PM   #195
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The problem is we have too many voters that are recipients of those tax receipts. Welfare recipients, Occupiers trying to get their student loans forgiven, gov't workers, union workers, affirmative action beneficiaries (gov't contracts), all of them get (or hope to get) money funneled back to them from the gov't. And they collectively comprise a large enough part of the voting population that us damn fools working 60 hour weeks in the private sector as salaried employees cannot stop them. We cannot stop them.
Add to that all these old people who think they have a right to life and those kids who won't go to work, with some 2 million folks getting an Uncle Sam Fighting check, and that 80 some % of retired generals work to procure contracts for defense companies, and we have no money left.

It is both sides, bread and boolits, but niether side will admit that (except Rand Paul).
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:54 PM   #196
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Add to that all these old people who think they have a right to life and those kids who won't go to work, with some 2 million folks getting an Uncle Sam Fighting check, and that 80 some % of retired generals work to procure contracts for defense companies, and we have no money left.

It is both sides, bread and boolits, but niether side will admit that (except Rand Paul).
I don't know what the hell an "Uncle Sam Fighting check" is but if you're referring to any of my friends who did their 20 and did time in Afghanistan or Iraq then the government damn well better pay them, and given what they went through, the gov't got a bargain.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:16 PM   #197
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My point is not the compensation of soldiers, their benefits, or their sacrifices.

My point is you cannot expect to spend more than, what, the next 15 countries (combined) on military spending, manipulate the price of corn, sugar, oil, and countless other commodities, pay old peoples perscription bills, fix roads, educate, and pay off industries in trouble all the while having an interest rate at a fraction of a healthy economys. It is very simple, and the notion that any cut to military is unamerican, unpatriotic, against the individuals, or in any way anything other than a MANDATORY choice is quite misguided by those that profit from the status quo.

My point is also returning to the verbage of the US Constitution, which says I don't need to pay your (and my) "20 year" friends for their service, because we are capable of our own protection, through state-led and maintained militias (as opposed to standing armies). But I can buy a 10/22, so that must be what the 2nd is all about...

After rereading this page, let me ask: Don't you expect to get your tax dollars back, too? Why shouldn't you? It is your money after all. I get that some (a lot) try to mooch, but we should all get an equal pie slice back, right?

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