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Old 01-06-2014, 12:27 PM   #1
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Travel Boycott to Utah

Hello fellow Jeepers -

As you know, Utah is trying to block marriage equality in the state.

I feel that, as Americans we should be supporting freedom, not taking away rights.

I have written an Open Letter to Red Rock 4 Wheelers and the State of Utah.

Please let me know by joining the conversation on my blog: Offroadvegan.com

Many thanks

Scott

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Old 01-06-2014, 12:33 PM   #2
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this thread is stupid.
please tell me what your ramblings have to do with "Trail Talk and Land Use Forums > On The Trail"

for the record i dont give two damns about either side of this debate
but if you are going to post political ramblings do it in an appropriate place.

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Old 01-06-2014, 12:38 PM   #3
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Utah has Moab. Moab has trails. A boycott of Utah means a boycott of trails. This is the trails section.
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:45 PM   #4
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that is asinine.
so you want everyone to stop going to moab because the government of the state doesnt agree with your sexual agenda?

thats retarded. good honest and potential same sex couples own business and work in that area. you would have them put out of business and unemployed so that they can file married on their taxes?
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:49 PM   #5
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Thank you for your educated, well-thought out and mature response.

I have no sexual agenda. I am married (straight). But I am an American. I do not have to agree with people's rights, but I should support their rights of freedom and equality.

As jeepers, we hate having our rights taken away, and access limited. Why would we support a state that takes others' rights away?

And a boycott of a state encourages local businesses to phone their elected officials to put pressure on policy change. Most times, the fear of a boycott is enough to drive change.

What if everyone was worried about the bus company staying in business during Rosa Parks' boycott?

Please come back with an educated response.

Thanks
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:03 PM   #6
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You still havent explained why political ramblings go in the on trail forum.
i get that you think us not going to moab will help the gay community in some way but that still has nothing to do with land use.

at best this should be general discussion or save this crap for your site.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:06 PM   #7
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I can no longer move it, but if a mod thinks it should move, they can move it.

As far as why, a boycott is only useful if many people take part. I am also trying to reach out to fellow Jeepers for a discussion on it..

Scott
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:10 PM   #8
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We can support California and Washington – states that recognize equality and freedom to marry.
and California should get our buisness because they support same sex but completely @#$% on my 2nd amendment right?

so offroadvegan.com supports gay marriage and opposes the 2nd amendment?
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:13 PM   #9
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Even though you are talking about trails, the off topic area is the best place for this discussion. It has now been moved.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:16 PM   #10
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Even though you are talking about trails, the off topic area is the best place for this discussion. It has now been moved.
Thank you
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:30 PM   #11
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so offroadvegan.com supports gay marriage and opposes the 2nd amendment?
Nope. Not at all. Check out this post.

I own an AR, SG-522 and a new SA XDs in .45.

No matter what issues we care about, there will always be a state somewhere opressing freedoms. Whether it is marriage equality, pot use, 2nd amendment, etc.

I have chosen, at this point to support marriage equality.

Scott
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:03 PM   #12
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Scott,

I appreciate your efforts, but I'm not sure you'll get much traction here. (Jeep pun!) Jeep forums are a hotbed of bigotry and social conservatism.

Good luck, my friend!
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:11 PM   #13
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then why are we boycotting utah and not commifornia?

gay rights of a few trump the constitutional rights of everyone?

the constitution of the united states does not define marriage.
the constitution of the state of utah does
the constitution of the united states says that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people. last i checked it was the the tenth amendment.

On November 2, 2004, Amendment 3 was approved by 66% of Utah voters
Utah Constitutional Amendment 3 is an amendment to the Utah state constitution that sought to define marriage as a union exclusively between a man and woman. It passed in the November 2, 2004 election, as did similar amendments in ten other states.

under the tenth amendment the majority of the people in utah are against gay couples being given the moniker of married.

in this region same sex couples are not marrried. nothing says they cant be together. just cant get married in the eyes of the state. i fail to see how any of this trumps my 2nd amendment right and the right to protect myself if i travel into California. but you know what i do. i just dont go to or live in california. if i wanted to marry a dude i wouldnt live in Utah. this isnt communist russia. you can move with out papers.


Laws exist to define what is acceptable and not acceptable behavior in a society.
Quote:
so·ci·e·ty
noun
1.
the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.
the people of Utah have defined that in their society a marriage is between man and woman.
the people that live in a society are the best equipped to decide what is right and wrong for their community.

The people of utah decided. and the people are comfortable with their decision.

a couple noisy groups does not represent the community.
I bet if you were to silently poll the state you would find that alot more than 66% agree with the law. but the problem is that no one wants to start confrontation so when a dude in a pink sweater shoves a clipboard in your face and says sign my petition to legalize my marriage to some other dude in a pink sweater you can imagine his petition will be signed to avoid conflict. now im not saying all same sex dudes are flamming homos but there are some. and id bet you that if you did poll all the same sex couples in utah how they felt about the law there would be more than a few that could care less about what box they check when they file their state taxes.



In closing you shouldn't care and neither should I. this is an issue for the state of utah. not all the noisy groups around the country.


the 2nd amendment on the other hand.........
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:14 PM   #14
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Scott,

I appreciate your efforts, but I'm not sure you'll get much traction here. (Jeep pun!) Jeep forums are a hotbed of bigotry and social conservatism.

Good luck, my friend!
cause it tends to be the hippies and ultra left that try and close all of the places we jeepers want to go.


frankly i dont care what kind of hole you put your peter in.
i dont rub my heterosexuality in your face.
i would appreciate the same treatment in return.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:27 PM   #15
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the 2nd amendment on the other hand.........
Lee - I am actually really enjoying this conversation, and by your participation I hope you are as well.

As a society, we cannot ban whatever we want. I cannot ban your right to free speech. Why? Because it is a constitutionally protected right.

The ban on same sex marriage in Utah was overturned in a Federal district court because it was determined to also be against the constitution. Namely, the U.S. Constitution’s guarantee of equal protection and due process.

Boom. That should be it. It was ruled to be against the founding principles of freedom in this country.

Second. I wish as a "society" we all got to have an equal say, and vote as people on issues like this. Did you know the ban on gay marriage was going to fail in Utah? The majority of Utahns support marriage equality (71%!). Unfortunately, the Mormon Church freaked out and funded TONS (5 MILLION DOLLARS!) of money into it, finally swaying the outcome and winning with only 52%. If wealthy interests stayed out of politics and people were allowed to determine the rules for their society, I would agree with you 100%.

Last, I find you talking out of both sides of your mouth.

If the PEOPLE (aka society) passed laws to ban firearms, you would be OK with that!? You would just write it off as society establishing the rules?

That is exactly why I am here. I don't necessarily agree with gay people getting married* but I don't have to. I don't have to agree with religious people, but I don't have to. I don't have to agree with someone having an abortion, but again I don't have to.

But as Americans we should be willing to fight to the death for the protection of rights for each other. We do not have to agree with each other.

We should not have to agree with each other to protect each others' rights.

Scott

*I actually do.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:32 PM   #16
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Without taking sides let me just say I hope your boycott works out. I prefer wheeling where there is less congestion.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:47 PM   #17
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allow me to pick this apart slowly

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmphoto View Post
Lee - I am actually really enjoying this conversation, and by your participation I hope you are as well.

As a society, we cannot ban whatever we want. I cannot ban your right to free speech. Why? Because it is a constitutionally protected right.

how is the right to be married to the same sex a constitutional right. I missed that in the bill of rights

The ban on same sex marriage in Utah was overturned in a Federal district court because it was determined to also be against the constitution. Namely, the U.S. Constitution’s guarantee of equal protection and due process.

Boom. That should be it. It was ruled to be against the founding principles of freedom in this country.

you are free to be gay in this country. but Utah says marriage is man and woman. the us constitution does not define this. there for it is the states Right to do so.

lets focus on the actual issue here. its the definition of a term not sexual preference.


Last, I find you talking out of both sides of your mouth.

If the PEOPLE (aka society) passed laws to ban firearms, you would be OK with that!? You would just write it off as society establishing the rules?

but see my right to a gun is in the constitution. the right to be married is not.
In the United States, civil marriage is governed by state law. Each state is free to set the conditions for a valid marriage, subject to limits set by the state's own constitution and the U.S. Constitution.


That is exactly why I am here. I don't necessarily agree with gay people getting married* but I don't have to. I don't have to agree with religious people, but I don't have to. I don't have to agree with someone having an abortion, but again I don't have to.

But as Americans we should be willing to fight to the death for the protection of rights for each other. We do not have to agree with each other.
still dont see where getting married is a right.

Scott

*I actually do.

* I dont care either way

READ carefully and Remember im not debating gay rights with you.

Im debating that marriage is defined by the state. per the Constitution of the united states.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:53 PM   #18
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this thread is stupid.
please tell me what your ramblings have to do with "Trail Talk and Land Use Forums > On The Trail"

for the record i dont give two damns about either side of this debate
but if you are going to post political ramblings do it in an appropriate place.
+1

I could care less how any two people find love. God knows, its difficult. But to try to turn this into a political/religious rant about your personal beliefs, and try to get the rest of us to buy in, forget it....

Take your indignation somewhere else, preferably an appropriate forum. THIS IS NOT THAT FORUM!
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:59 PM   #19
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LOL. Good points.

BUT. It says in the constitution you can have a gun. So go pick up your 1790 British Sea Service Pistol or your Charleville musket. Where does it say you can have an AR?

And before you say "It doesn't have to say that" then why can't we have a RPG? Why can't I open carry a Thompson? Because we have had to establish specific rules for how we interpret the constitution. With guns, it comes down to "You can bear some guns, not all."

Also, the constitution says nothing about denying those rights to felons, mentally ill, etc. So why can't these people today own guns? Again, we have had to boil down the rules set forth in the constitution.

Additionally, I also cannot prevent someone from renting a property from me if they are a minority. Believe it or not, that violates the equal protections clause of the constitution.

This is the same clause that apparently means we cannot restrict rights - in this case, marriage - based on sexual orientation, race, etc.

Renting an apartment is not a right, but the protections afforded in the constitution still protect those that are discriminated against. Same as marriage.

What were your thoughts on the erosion of democracy from special interests? I'm interested in your perspective there.

Scott

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Old 01-06-2014, 03:07 PM   #20
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+1

I could care less how any two people find love. God knows, its difficult. But to try to turn this into a political/religious rant about your personal beliefs, and try to get the rest of us to buy in, forget it....

Take your indignation somewhere else, preferably an appropriate forum. THIS IS NOT THAT FORUM!
This has been quite the social experiment. Thanks for showing your tolerance and understanding.

#pointproven
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:12 PM   #21
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Mods, I am done here. Let's lock it down.

Scott
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:16 PM   #22
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then why are we boycotting utah and not commifornia?

gay rights of a few trump the constitutional rights of everyone?

the constitution of the united states does not define marriage.
the constitution of the state of utah does
the constitution of the united states says that powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or the people. last i checked it was the the tenth amendment.

On November 2, 2004, Amendment 3 was approved by 66% of Utah voters
Utah Constitutional Amendment 3 is an amendment to the Utah state constitution that sought to define marriage as a union exclusively between a man and woman. It passed in the November 2, 2004 election, as did similar amendments in ten other states.

under the tenth amendment the majority of the people in utah are against gay couples being given the moniker of married.

in this region same sex couples are not marrried. nothing says they cant be together. just cant get married in the eyes of the state. i fail to see how any of this trumps my 2nd amendment right and the right to protect myself if i travel into California. but you know what i do. i just dont go to or live in california. if i wanted to marry a dude i wouldnt live in Utah. this isnt communist russia. you can move with out papers.


Laws exist to define what is acceptable and not acceptable behavior in a society.


the people of Utah have defined that in their society a marriage is between man and woman.
the people that live in a society are the best equipped to decide what is right and wrong for their community.

The people of utah decided. and the people are comfortable with their decision.

a couple noisy groups does not represent the community.
I bet if you were to silently poll the state you would find that alot more than 66% agree with the law. but the problem is that no one wants to start confrontation so when a dude in a pink sweater shoves a clipboard in your face and says sign my petition to legalize my marriage to some other dude in a pink sweater you can imagine his petition will be signed to avoid conflict. now im not saying all same sex dudes are flamming homos but there are some. and id bet you that if you did poll all the same sex couples in utah how they felt about the law there would be more than a few that could care less about what box they check when they file their state taxes.



In closing you shouldn't care and neither should I. this is an issue for the state of utah. not all the noisy groups around the country.


the 2nd amendment on the other hand.........
Very well written, Lee.

Regarding previous comments about the "bigoted rednecks" who are supposedly the majority on this site, let me say this: What two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors is their business. It is not for me to judge or criminalize it, as long as it does not involve minors. If the Feds make it ok to marry, it becomes the law of the land. Conversely, with States rights protected, a State can poll its citizens to find out what they want to do regarding statute. Utah spoke. End of discussion.

It's not bigotry or being a redneck that has people disagree with the OP's original request of a boycott. It's the plain and simple fact that it is not ours to decide; it was the people of Utah. Just because we believe that your post was insipid doesn't make us Gay-haters. Many of us just don't buy into the whole "political correctness" crap. Your take seems to be that if I don't want to be involved in your petition, it must mean that I hate gays. I think that you would find that, as goes the nation (by geographic area), so goes the forum. The reason that the OP wanted a "discussion" is because he does not agree with the will of the people in Utah, a State in which he does not reside.

You live in Oregon, so I kind of get it. You live in an area that chose to legislate tolerance. It would seem natural that you would want to force it on everyone else. Oregon is the reason that every kid, on every T-ball team, gets a trophy.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:19 PM   #23
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How does a call for a boycott turn into a social experiment?
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by scottmphoto View Post
LOL. Good points.

BUT. It says in the constitution you can have a gun. So go pick up your 1790 British Sea Service Pistol or your Charleville musket. Where does it say you can have an AR?

wow thats your best comeback.


And before you say "It doesn't have to say that" then why can't we have a RPG? Why can't I open carry a Thompson? Because we have had to establish specific rules for how we interpret the constitution. With guns, it comes down to "You can bear some guns, not all."

Actually you can google it.

Also, the constitution says nothing about denying those rights to felons, mentally ill, etc. So why can't these people today own guns? Again, we have had to boil down the rules set forth in the constitution.

the law is that the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that Congress, under the interstate commerce clause, has the authority to regulate items that enter, or could enter, interstate commerce; guns can easily be transported across state lines. Courts have upheld the authority of the government to restrict the gun rights of categories of people, including criminals, the mentally ill, etc., ruling that prohibiting a narrow category of people from owning firearms does not violate the Second Amendment.



Additionally, I also cannot prevent someone from renting a property from me if they are a minority. Believe it or not, that violates the equal protections clause of the constitution.

This is the same clause that apparently means we cannot restrict rights - in this case, marriage - based on sexual orientation, race, etc.

Renting an apartment is not a right, but the protections afforded in the constitution still protect those that are discriminated against. Same as marriage.

you are crossing the fuzzy line between what is covered in the tenth amendment and what isnt.
all men are created equal. thats in the constitution. no where does it say all men are allowed to marry other men.
you not renting to a minority because they are minority is a direct violation of the all men are created equal ie the first line of the constitution.

getting married is not in the constitution. what is in their is the freedom of the state and the people to decide what marriage is.

utah defined it. and so did alot of other states. part of freedom is being able to choose. you can choose to live under laws you dont agree with or move. if the people of one region say let gueers get married move to that area.



What were your thoughts on the erosion of democracy from special interests? I'm interested in your perspective there.
no opinion. I didnt even have an opinion on this before you posted in the wrong section.
Scott

PS.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:51 PM   #25
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Very well written, Lee.

Regarding previous comments about the "bigoted rednecks" who are supposedly the majority on this site, let me say this: What two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors is their business. It is not for me to judge or criminalize it, as long as it does not involve minors. If the Feds make it ok to marry, it becomes the law of the land. Conversely, with States rights protected, a State can poll its citizens to find out what they want to do regarding statute. Utah spoke. End of discussion.

It's not bigotry or being a redneck that has people disagree with the OP's original request of a boycott. It's the plain and simple fact that it is not ours to decide; it was the people of Utah. Just because we believe that your post was insipid doesn't make us Gay-haters. Many of us just don't buy into the whole "political correctness" crap. Your take seems to be that if I don't want to be involved in your petition, it must mean that I hate gays. I think that you would find that, as goes the nation (by geographic area), so goes the forum. The reason that the OP wanted a "discussion" is because he does not agree with the will of the people in Utah, a State in which he does not reside.

You live in Oregon, so I kind of get it. You live in an area that chose to legislate tolerance. It would seem natural that you would want to force it on everyone else. Oregon is the reason that every kid, on every T-ball team, gets a trophy.
if you disagree with a liberal you are a gay basher.

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