was the civil war inevitable? - Page 2 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 04-23-2010, 10:23 PM   #31
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
Kevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 259
I have never given much thought to the question, but being born and raised in California and because my grandfather and uncles worked in the gold mines in the late 1800 and early 1900's have studied some California history. When California wanted to join the Union The Southern contingent of Congress wanted it to be a Slave state. It was even discussed that every other state that came in the Union would either be Free or a Slave state so there would be a balance. Washington decided that the decision would be left up to the State that was joining the Union and not by Washington. California was accepted very quickly with the statement: "When a rich relative knocks on the door, you let him in!" So even in 1850 their primary purpose was:..............More tax dollars! Nothing has changed much has it!

Kevin is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-23-2010, 11:10 PM   #32
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Albany New york
Posts: 585
Send a message via AIM to Samsrubicon
From what ive read the civil war was mainly started over the election of president lincoln, it was perceived as a threat to the south, south carolina was the first state to seceed. it was also over the different views from the Industrial north and the Agriculteral south. I also commend lincoln on his ability as a president to make and stick to his decisions, he signed the emancipation proclimation in 1863 and stuck by it and he was willing to go to war for it. At the end of the war he made our country what it is today. i believe all should be treated equal. all the other stuff about financial gain or loss in my mind is a second thought, the united states was young when our civil war broke out, and lincoln took a stand on somthing he believed in. we need more presidents like that. My 2cents

__________________
http://img1.jurko.net/avatar_2101.jpg


"Si vis pacem, para bellum", If you seek peace, prepare for war.

2008 Wrangler Rubicon unlimited black rock steelies, stock rock sliders
Samsrubicon is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-24-2010, 07:48 AM   #33
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 135
the war was started b/c of the financial influenced minds of the "fire eaters" politicians. mainly in South Carolina. they were the first to push for succession. and their neighbors followed suit.

it was the selfish, greedy, notions of the rich ruling politicians that made the war happen. sounds familiar doesnt it?! slavery was a point, but not why most suited up and armed themselves. only 4% of the population in the south owned slaves, most was dirt poor, "good ol boys" that did their job, protected their homes, families, and states from an evil foreign invader. just like anyone of us would if someone did some B & E on our personal homes. but yes the war could have been avoided, i hate to admit it, but the South started it with its firing on Sumpter. what president could allow that to go unanswered?? War is pushed on the masses, war is a money making tool for a very small minority, and War pays well.

The Am. Civil War was all about politics, and money making. just like every other war. and the lay folks was pushed out into the front line to do the dirty work for the others to reach their evil goals.

Slavery was on its way out. machinery, and industrial revolution was starting to rear its (at times) ugly head. it was much cheaper to invest in the new modernized tools coming down the line than it was to buy and maintain entire families for physical labor.
TroyD is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-24-2010, 01:54 PM   #34
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsrubicon View Post
From what ive read the civil war was mainly started over the election of president lincoln, it was perceived as a threat to the south, south carolina was the first state to seceed. it was also over the different views from the Industrial north and the Agriculteral south. I also commend lincoln on his ability as a president to make and stick to his decisions, he signed the emancipation proclimation in 1863 and stuck by it and he was willing to go to war for it. At the end of the war he made our country what it is today. i believe all should be treated equal. all the other stuff about financial gain or loss in my mind is a second thought, the united states was young when our civil war broke out, and lincoln took a stand on somthing he believed in. we need more presidents like that. My 2cents
The Confederacy was formed and the civil war began in 1861, 2 years before Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation which only freed slaves in the Confederate states.
Lincoln certainly set the stage for what our country has become, He instituted martial law even though there's no provision in the constitution to do so, suspended Habeas corpus, imprisoned thousands of northerners without trial, censored the telegraph and shut down newspapers, conducted war without authorization from congress for months...
For myself, I think I could do with fewer like him.

Quote:
I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. :Abraham Lincoln
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD View Post
the war was started b/c of the financial influenced minds of the "fire eaters" politicians. mainly in South Carolina. they were the first to push for succession. and their neighbors followed suit.

it was the selfish, greedy, notions of the rich ruling politicians that made the war happen. sounds familiar doesnt it?! slavery was a point, but not why most suited up and armed themselves. only 4% of the population in the south owned slaves, most was dirt poor, "good ol boys" that did their job, protected their homes, families, and states from an evil foreign invader. just like anyone of us would if someone did some B & E on our personal homes. but yes the war could have been avoided, i hate to admit it, but the South started it with its firing on Sumpter. what president could allow that to go unanswered?? War is pushed on the masses, war is a money making tool for a very small minority, and War pays well.

The Am. Civil War was all about politics, and money making. just like every other war. and the lay folks was pushed out into the front line to do the dirty work for the others to reach their evil goals.

Slavery was on its way out. machinery, and industrial revolution was starting to rear its (at times) ugly head. it was much cheaper to invest in the new modernized tools coming down the line than it was to buy and maintain entire families for physical labor.
Whitney Invented the cotton gin in 1793, rather than reduce the number of slaves it actually increased the perceived need because the plantation owners just increased the amount of land they farmed...

Slavery would most likely have ended eventually but it's end would have come from societal morals and competition for jobs by free whites.
Slaves cost money to purchase, feed cloth and house but it was less cost than hiring free men since slaves could be bred and sold or sent to work for others for a fee when they had free time.

Fort Sumpter was fired upon because Lincoln was attempting to reinforce it in violation of the ongoing negotiations. What nation would allow a belligerent fortification to be resupplied and reinforced within it's borders?

The secession was caused by democrat slavers fears for their livelihood. The war was caused Lincoln not wanting the union split on his watch and being incapable of stopping it through diplomacy.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-24-2010, 04:54 PM   #35
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mayland
Posts: 152
Sumpter was being resupplied but not reinforced, lincoln decided not to send more toops in fear of it escalating things. My guess is that S.C. wasn't informed of this and thus rushed to get sumpter before the perceived troops arrived. lots of good info though, especially the stuff that was not slave related some of those facts I never thought of. Please post more info if ya have any. I'm trying to become a park ranger when I graduate and more then likely becasue of where I live it will be at a civil war park.
__________________
The day you stop learning is the day you stop living.
bugman1964 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-24-2010, 05:04 PM   #36
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
chucky cheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: We eat stuff outa ditches!
Posts: 4,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman1964 View Post
Sumpter was being resupplied but not reinforced, lincoln decided not to send more toops in fear of it escalating things. My guess is that S.C. wasn't informed of this and thus rushed to get sumpter before the perceived troops arrived. lots of good info though, especially the stuff that was not slave related some of those facts I never thought of. Please post more info if ya have any. I'm trying to become a park ranger when I graduate and more then likely becasue of where I live it will be at a civil war park.
I agree. Keep up the discussion . I have learned more here than in skool!
__________________
It ain't easy being cheesy:

Sometimes I make decisions like famous people.
George Armstrong Custer "lets go over that hill, I think those are friendly indians!"

Titanic's Captain Smith "What icebergs? Full speed ahead!"
chucky cheese is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-24-2010, 05:06 PM   #37
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
chucky cheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: We eat stuff outa ditches!
Posts: 4,009
Also Skeeter may I call you professor?
__________________
It ain't easy being cheesy:

Sometimes I make decisions like famous people.
George Armstrong Custer "lets go over that hill, I think those are friendly indians!"

Titanic's Captain Smith "What icebergs? Full speed ahead!"
chucky cheese is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-24-2010, 05:49 PM   #38
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
I'm not a professor of history, I just play one on teh interwebs
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-25-2010, 06:24 AM   #39
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman1964 View Post
Sumpter was being resupplied but not reinforced, lincoln decided not to send more toops in fear of it escalating things. My guess is that S.C. wasn't informed of this and thus rushed to get sumpter before the perceived troops arrived. lots of good info though, especially the stuff that was not slave related some of those facts I never thought of. Please post more info if ya have any. I'm trying to become a park ranger when I graduate and more then likely becasue of where I live it will be at a civil war park.

dead on brotha man. the politicians in SC esp. in Charleston had whipped the people into such a war minded frenzy, that they were lookin for any excuse "to get it on" aaannnddddd alot of that southern pride that so many of us are guilty of.

Lincoln was trying his best to avoid a conflict. i have to hand it to him. i believe for a president, he wasnt a bad fella. he didnt want war. and then afterwards was treating the south right decently. it was a bad thing for the south when he was assassinated.

some very good points brought out in this thread. ive enjoyed reading it.
Skeeter, i still have to disagree......yup there was big money in human traffiking but that practice was a very small part or non existant for the average slave owner. plus no way was it cheaper to feed entire families 365 days a yr, house, cloth, medical etc than to invest in machinery. you take into consideration the amount of yrs it took to care for a human till he/she was up to age for prime $$$...........a big investment.
TroyD is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-26-2010, 04:42 AM   #40
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mayland
Posts: 152
I would tend to agree as well that slavery was on it's way out due to new machines being cheaper to run. But if that is the case was it only the ability of a few in the south to see this, and that is why they seceded?
__________________
The day you stop learning is the day you stop living.
bugman1964 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-26-2010, 06:32 AM   #41
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 135
secessesion was a product of people in postion wanting to do what they wanted to do without being told NO!. similar to the way most people in the country feel and act today. anarchy rule, with out limitations. kinda like a bunch of spoiled rotten youngins. slavery was just a small part of the problem. but it was the one straw that broke the camels back. because, you was messing with a mans money when you discussed agricultural things, in the south. and you must realize, most folks hate change, esp. the older ones. changing the methods of planting and harvesting.........thats pure poppycock!! LOL!! even though they would have, or the following generations would have as a whole, as technology continued to improve. if time, money, resources werent wasted on 4-5 yrs of war, imagine how much quicker farming technology would have improved.

plus owning other human beings was a showy display of ones means of life. prestige. look at me, look at me. if you ever read old plantion records or even books of the old antibellum south, you'll see plantations were recorded or listed/ranked by amount of acreage, acres that were planted and the amount of slaves owned and living on particular farm.
TroyD is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-26-2010, 06:55 AM   #42
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mayland
Posts: 152
The thing that also amazes me is how the yeoman farmer fits into all this. I know they were protecting their homes from invaders, but slavery was also oppressing them.
__________________
The day you stop learning is the day you stop living.
bugman1964 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 04-27-2010, 09:37 PM   #43
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 135
pride issue man. that southern pride. loyalty to your state. plus people stood by there fellow man more often than not back then. if your neighbor joined up, you did the same. to help him out, and not to be looked down on by everyone else. it was pride and fear of reproach that kept men volunteering, and in line, and not turning and running when things got tuff. thats why slavery really has very little to do with why the average soldier fought. they didnt give a rats butt about slavery, or the wealthy planter that owned them.
TroyD is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-01-2010, 10:09 AM   #44
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman1964 View Post
Sumpter was being resupplied but not reinforced, lincoln decided not to send more toops in fear of it escalating things. My guess is that S.C. wasn't informed of this and thus rushed to get sumpter before the perceived troops arrived. lots of good info though, especially the stuff that was not slave related some of those facts I never thought of. Please post more info if ya have any. I'm trying to become a park ranger when I graduate and more then likely becasue of where I live it will be at a civil war park.
This was the first I've heard of Lincoln deciding not to send more troops so I went looking for confirmation but I haven't been able to find it. I did find reference to them transferring troops from the Fort Sumter fleet to the Fort Pickens reinforcement fleet but that still left 2 companies of artillery on the Fort Sumter fleet.
If you can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Even if the troops were pulled, why try to maintain those forts if Lincoln opposed war? They offered no defensive value to the Union. They would be extremely difficult to support and they would be constant provocation to the Confederate states. In fact, the only value I can see is as a blatant provocation. Am I missing something?
I'm sure Lincoln would have loved to reunite the the Union without war but he certainly wasn't opposed to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD View Post
dead on brotha man. the politicians in SC esp. in Charleston had whipped the people into such a war minded frenzy, that they were lookin for any excuse "to get it on" aaannnddddd alot of that southern pride that so many of us are guilty of.

Lincoln was trying his best to avoid a conflict. i have to hand it to him. i believe for a president, he wasnt a bad fella. he didnt want war. and then afterwards was treating the south right decently. it was a bad thing for the south when he was assassinated.

some very good points brought out in this thread. ive enjoyed reading it.
Skeeter, i still have to disagree......yup there was big money in human traffiking but that practice was a very small part or non existant for the average slave owner. plus no way was it cheaper to feed entire families 365 days a yr, house, cloth, medical etc than to invest in machinery. you take into consideration the amount of yrs it took to care for a human till he/she was up to age for prime $$$...........a big investment.
My employer has to pay me enough to feed, cloth, house and care for my family or I'll go work somewhere else. A slave can be made to raise their own food, construct their own shack to live in, sew their own clothes and so on. Children can work in gardens and in the fields at a very young age. I was picking crops by 8 or 9 years old and I wasn't a slave.
No matter though, we agree that slavery would most likely have ended on it's own at some point, we simply disagree on the mechanism for that end. Which brings me back to my previous question, Would it have been better to allow slavery to end on it's own, or was ending it with war the best option?
I would be interested in what machinery you think would have ended the need for slaves though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman1964 View Post
The thing that also amazes me is how the yeoman farmer fits into all this. I know they were protecting their homes from invaders, but slavery was also oppressing them.
Agrarian communities are very interdependent. Southern communities even more so. Everybody down south is somebodies cousin
Large farmers often provide the infrastructure which helps small farmers to operate. Large plantations often owned cotton gins and other equipment that they would let smaller operations use. They would organize and operate markets, arrange transportation, imports and exports at a better price. Provide loans and so forth. On top of that, cotton was the primary economic force in the region, if the cotton growers failed then the region failed.
Those small farmers also hoped to one day be big farmers and own their own slaves.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-03-2010, 04:35 AM   #45
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mayland
Posts: 152
The data I used for that statement came out of my text book, validity of it and checking of it past that I have no idea, but I think I also saw it on another place with in my reading online. But I do agree they were a thorn in the confederates side, but if the forts troops were pulled out that would have been a sign that the north was recognizing the sovereignty of the south.

So any tips guys one what I can write a 3-5 page paper on the civil war about? It can be any topic I choose, but the hard part is the length some subject are to big in scope while others could prove to small. I was thinking of writing it on the naval blockades but I'm not sure if I can find enough to write a decent 3 pages on.
__________________
The day you stop learning is the day you stop living.
bugman1964 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-03-2010, 01:18 PM   #46
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,869
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
If your text book is decent the authors should have cited their sources, check the source material. If their claim proves accurate, you win the internets, err, the debate, well, maybe a point in the debate
If their claim proves inaccurate, there's a perfect topic to do your paper on. If your professor has any integrity I'd imagine she would be impressed that you spent the time and effort to check the data presented rather than just accept it.

If you decide to do it on the naval blockade and can't find enough info to fill several books, let alone 3 to 5 pages you might want to consider changing your major...

Good luck.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 05-04-2010, 04:20 AM   #47
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mayland
Posts: 152
I'll have to check it on a nigh I don't put in 11 hours at work or have school so it maybe a few days since were stupid busy at work right now.

__________________
The day you stop learning is the day you stop living.
bugman1964 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Civil Service Exam.. George T. Off-Topic 3 12-22-2007 02:34 PM
Cheney Underfire for Confederate Flag Levinoss Off-Topic 29 11-01-2007 03:51 PM



» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:09 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC