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Old 01-07-2008, 10:13 AM   #1
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Question What do you think...?

WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION..

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

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Old 01-07-2008, 12:37 PM   #2
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...The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger...

Not entirely true. I'm a buck twenty and I can and have taken down a 220 pound man. Now I'm not saying I'd walk away unscathed, I usually didn't even in sparring matches, but people should take amore active roll in learning to defend themselves than just picking up a gun and thinking it's the end all to self defense. I am plenty armed without a gun at my side.

Add to this the weapons training I've had and the psychological training I've gone through and I'd even square up "unarmed" against an armed mugger bent on using the gun to menace. Because there are only two ways for a criminal to use a gun. To kill, or to threaten. If they're planning on killing you, you must have luck at your side, even armed. If they're using it to get what they want, they've already hesitated long enough for a skilled person to take action.

Guns are not civilization. People are. Guns are tools to be used. Whether they are used in a civil manner or not is in the hands of the owner.

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Old 01-07-2008, 01:05 PM   #3
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Good posting Dare... I've read that somewhere before or something very similar.

Tiny, not everyone has the physial ability to take self defense classes. There's never going to be a perfect situation no matter what. Personally I can take care of myself but I don't want to get up close and personal unless I absolutely have to. I carry a multitude of tools for self defense at all times and can improvise if I have to... but my last resort will always be straight up hand to hand if I'm trying to neutralize a threat.

The first option I always try to use is to walk away.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:03 PM   #4
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Not entirely true. I'm a buck twenty and I can and have taken down a 220 pound man. Now I'm not saying I'd walk away unscathed, I usually didn't even in sparring matches, but people should take amore active roll in learning to defend themselves than just picking up a gun and thinking it's the end all to self defense. I am plenty armed without a gun at my side.
hearing you say that reminds me of the missing-believed-to-be-dead 24 y/o woman hiker here in GA (5'4"/120 lbs) blue belt in Tae-Kwon-Do.. she's nowhere to be found and the person (5'10" / 154) charged with kidnapping her isnt cooperating. Regardless of whether you want to admit it, or how many 220lbs men you've taken down, your size is a factor.. as is the time it has taken you to learn everything you know about self defense. If Meredith Emerrson had a gun, she would likely still be alive.

Emerson's story scares the sh!t out of me.. my fiancee has hiked Blood Mtn and the Vogle State Park trails at least a dozen times alone with her dog and has kick-boxing training. It could very well be my financee that's in the news now since she's "confident" in her abilities.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:14 PM   #5
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.... blue belt in Tae-Kwon-Do..

Which is why I took a form that is pure self defense. Krav Maga is ugly, dirty, and ever changing.

I'm not arguing against people's right to carry a weapon, I myself carry a knife and I'm trained in fighting with it. I've also trained with a baseball bat (yes, there's more than just swinging for the fences).

What I'm saying is self defense is not just a gun in your hand. Being aware of your surroundings, avoiding certain places, training for certain situtions so that you know what to do if it happens. Everyone can. I taught a class of women on Saturday mornings for a while. Most of them were over the age of 50 and not in the best of shape. But, what they gained lessened their chances of a mugger choosing them as a victim.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:30 PM   #6
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Tiny, what would happen if the gang banger is a really good fighter? I have a black belt also but I know really, really quickly how a fight is going to turn out. There have been some 220 pound men that I have hooked and some I need a bit of help with. That bit of was of course some weapon I carry...lethal and non-lethal.

I never rely on any weapon whether it'd be me or mechanical. Use them all and let God sort it out.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:44 PM   #7
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I see y'all seem to think I'm thinking I'm some sort of badass. That I can conquer anything. And yes, I approach everything in my life that way. Until it beats me, I'm going to win. You can't enter anything thinking you're going to lose and win. Confidence. I am a certified Krav Maga instructor, I do know a little about self defense.

What ifs are not what I deal in. I never stated I would beat the IceMan if I came across him on the street. My point is just because you purchase a gun does not in any way mean you are safe. It is your responsibility to train with that gun. It is also your responsibility to be aware at all times of your surroundings. It is your responsibility to know any weapon you use like you know yourself.

I have a problem with people who think that just because they have a gun they are safe. If you have never trained with or discharged a gun you are in just as much danger as you were before you plunked down the cash to buy it. We're all issued weapons. You should train with the weapons you have first. Your first line of defense is your brain.

Then move onto the next level and train.
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:07 PM   #8
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Tiny is absolutely right.
The gun does not automagically make you equal to any threat any more than a black belt in some martial art makes you capable of taking out multiple attackers with ease.
The gun is a more effective equalizer than any other weapon but you still need to train with it.
We go through a couple hundred rounds a month training with our guns.
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:48 PM   #9
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Guns don't kill people.

Good shots kill people.
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:48 PM   #10
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I was agreeing... training with and mastering the tools you have at your disposal are most important.

...I'm still not going fist to cuffs with someone unless I have to. That's not to say I'm quick draw mcgraw or anything but I'll be damned if I'm going to tussle with someone if I don't absolutely have to.

If someone is close enough to possibly disarm me the pistola stays put. They're getting what ever I can give 'em at that point.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:36 PM   #11
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Guns are tools to be used. Whether they are used in a civil manner or not is in the hands of the owner.
Well put, cannot agree more.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:06 AM   #12
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I see y'all seem to think I'm thinking I'm some sort of badass. That I can conquer anything. And yes, I approach everything in my life that way. Until it beats me, I'm going to win. You can't enter anything thinking you're going to lose and win. Confidence. I am a certified Krav Maga instructor, I do know a little about self defense.

What ifs are not what I deal in. I never stated I would beat the IceMan if I came across him on the street. My point is just because you purchase a gun does not in any way mean you are safe. It is your responsibility to train with that gun. It is also your responsibility to be aware at all times of your surroundings. It is your responsibility to know any weapon you use like you know yourself.

I have a problem with people who think that just because they have a gun they are safe. If you have never trained with or discharged a gun you are in just as much danger as you were before you plunked down the cash to buy it. We're all issued weapons. You should train with the weapons you have first. Your first line of defense is your brain.

Then move onto the next level and train.
I agree with tiny,

here are a few sayings I have been taught by instructors and other friends:

train to fight, fight to live.
the more we sweat in training the less we bleed on the streets.

approach everything like your ten feet tall and bulletproof and fight till you can't fight anymore but never die.
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:32 AM   #13
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:26 AM   #14
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I thought for sure my last ine in my post said "use them all" meaning use all the weapons you have available"...let me look... Yep I did say that.

Nowhere was I trying to criticize anybody.

A firearm in the hand of the right person can take out anyone with any kind of self defense training.

See tactics win fights. For example...you are up against a person with a knife. You gun is in your holster. We are taught that it takes about 21 feet for that peron with the knife to cover that 21 feet before you can draw and fire. So now this person is less than 21 feet away from you..what do you do? Well you go to another source of self defense nd that just may be an evasive move with a strike if one is properly trained in that sort of thing. Or maybe turn around and run until you can get that distance you need.

tatctics win fights. But overall I agree with the OP. A firearm can make a person more equal. God may have made man...Samuel Colt made them equal.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:37 AM   #15
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Oh hell.... Just do what I do.... Walk around with high explosives taped to your chest with your finger on the arming button all the time.... You know, the kind that if you let go of the switch, it all blows to hell! Either way, you're going to meet your demise, but you'll take the fookers with ya!
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:43 AM   #16
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Crazy Irish bastage!
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:29 AM   #17
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I just get my ass kicked...then I sneak in their house later and kill them, their family, pets and neighbors while they sleep.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:52 AM   #18
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Crazy Irish bastage!
That cooks it!!! I place a Jihad on ya! GEE-HAD GEE-HAD GEE-HAD!!!! Right after I finish mah Guinness!
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:18 AM   #19
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I was taught that the most dangerous weapon any one has is none other than your BRAIN (think someone also said that earlier). any way you can have as many man made weapons as you can carry BUT! without proper training and the right mind set none of them will do you much good. Tiny as well as anybody who has trained in the MA's knows it's all about muscle memory (doing it over and over until your mind does it on autopilot). Now a gun and/or knife or any other carried weapon as well as any good MA makes a great equalizer in a fight but the above mentioned will help you win that little confrontation with the big 'ole bad Guy/Gal ( most of the time nothings absolute). OH and Tiny we had a fella well trained in Krav Maga who used to come to our school every Sat and train with us(so he could train with high kickers)and I agree that is one nasty fighting system, Also we train in disarming of various weapons with it. Peace out
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:07 PM   #20
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Weapons are tools (hands or guns) .... The human mind is where the civilzation starts and ends. Morals are something that is instilled in you during your development. Show me a violent criminal and I'll show you someone who lacks a moral background.

To your point Dare, we do not live a "truly moral and civilized society". However, force of rule (laws) govern the behaviors and interactions in our society. When the morals break down, civilization breaks down with it. When the laws are not being enforced by societal code (morals or government) then the individual citizen is left to pick up the slack and defend or maintain them (by force or persuasion). A firearm is merely a tool in the arsenal.

Carrying a firearm does not necessarily equalize anything, it's a comfort to your mind for the unpredictable environment. Put yourself in a more predictable - moral environment and you don't really need one. For a completely random - violent crime, in order for it to be useful, you need to have the advantage on someone or it's all over. If the other guy has one pointed at you then you only have your hands and unless you have been trained to use them and have an opportunity to get close enough to use them, then they are useless too.

You're brain is the best weapon. You need to percieve the threat, process the response and find your resolution in a split second before and when the situation occurs.

I've had extensive training in tae-kwon-do and I also own many types of firearms but I do not carry. To be clear, I'm not against carrying either. However, I'm 6 foot and 250 lbs.... I don't feel the need to carry. I have my brain and my hands as my weapons. My point, I try to not get myself into a situation where I need to defend myself... I avoid the conflicts or the situations that create them. When I'm in a public area I am aware of my surroundings, the people and the issues. If I percieve a threat, I remove myself from the situation and let the professionals handle it. I need to stay alive to be a hero for my wife and kids, not to some store owner who's not going to pay my medical bills when I get stabbed or shot.

However, if I'm i a situation I cannot avoid and need to back it up, I evaluate all my options. If I'm going to imerse myself in bad neighborhood or surround myself with individuals of a questionable moral fiber, then I carry. Only reasons for this maybe to pick up a car, traveling, etc. Otherwise, I don't associate in these environments. Thankfully, I have never had to raise or use my weapon to repel a threat.

Last time I checked, the criminals that use firearms do not apply for permits to use them. This gives the decent law abiding gun owner a bad name. Gun regulation is not the answer, law enforcement is the answer. The people that commit these crimes need to be put away and put away for good. IMO - there's only one way to deal with a mad dog, and that's to put them down.

The moral majority seems to be a silent majority in this country and this is a problem when law enforcement is not maintaining laws. This situation has compromised the average person. I think most people are good-honest people. It's the rotten 5% that needs to be dealt with and most good people do not want to deal with them and the laws do not favor the victims.

If everyone had a permit to carry - I believe there would be no more bank robberies. However, I think there would just be a lot of dead innocent people caught in the cross fire.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:36 PM   #21
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Agree with most of the previous post except for the part where MOz stated that law enforcement do not enforce laws, Truth be told they/we do but the real problem is in the revolving doors of our penal institutes and judicial systems anybody in law enforcement from prisons to jail to patrol officers can tell you it is nothing but a never ending circle of the same subjects. We can and do arrest them but in most cases they are back out on the street in a manner of hours committing the same crime some minor some more severe the papers are full of stories like this, So in short (too late) the key is awareness, What is around that corner, Who's sitting in that van next to your car when you come out of walmart or the establishment where you and some friends just left after a girls night out, BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!!!!They are
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:25 PM   #22
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well said Kick. I think everyone here is on the right track in one way or another and were all saying just about the same thing but in different ways. for each person self defense will be different and thats why it is good to be on your feet and adapt well to random situations.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:28 AM   #23
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but a never ending circle of the same subjects.

Here are few stats from the FBI magazine we get.

About 15% of society cause 90% of all police work.

Sucessful parole is 30% meaning 70% of all parolees re-offend.

Drug programs barely work. They have a phenomenal 90% graduation rate. Meaning about 90% of the participants do finsih the program but out of that 90% we have 70% recidivism rate.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:44 AM   #24
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Agree with most of the previous post except for the part where MOz stated that law enforcement do not enforce laws, Truth be told they/we do but the real problem is in the revolving doors of our penal institutes and judicial systems anybody in law enforcement from prisons to jail to patrol officers can tell you it is nothing but a never ending circle of the same subjects. We can and do arrest them but in most cases they are back out on the street in a manner of hours committing the same crime some minor some more severe the papers are full of stories like this, So in short (too late) the key is awareness, What is around that corner, Who's sitting in that van next to your car when you come out of walmart or the establishment where you and some friends just left after a girls night out, BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!!!!They are
Where I curently live, we do not have a local police police force, we have state patrols. Needless to say, they are overwhelmed and their coverage is very thin. This creates too many opportunities for petty criminals to flourish and their crimes go mostly unnoticed....

My apologies, my intention was not to disenfranchise our law enforcement people here. To the contrary, I support law enforcement as much as I can.

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