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View Poll Results: Was the FUPD correct in taking these measures?
Yes, the kid could have been percieved as a threat. 1 3.85%
No, the kid was simply asking a question. 0 0%
Yes, the kid brought it upon his self due to the nature of his tonality and demeanor. 12 46.15%
No, they violated his right to free speech. 7 26.92%
Undecided. 6 23.08%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:28 PM   #1
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What's your take?

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/ire...erry.event.cnn



Please explain whichever option you choose and keep it civilized for a good discussion.

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:38 PM   #2
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Until he poses a physical threat to people or property, the police have no right to use force at that level.

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:39 PM   #3
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I think this should be filed under "WTF"

The kid really dident get to ask his question so why did they cut his mic? I kinda wana hear what his question was.

The video really didn't really show much one min hes being walked away then it cuts out to him on the floor in a dog pile.

Hard to make a decision unless we see a un-edited video. Anyone who says they are right or wrong is making a blind judgment unless they see a un-edited video of what happened.

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:45 PM   #4
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http://www.break.com/index/student-t...ry-speech.html

Thats it in its entirety but it looks to be on cell phone video so it poor quality. can still hear everything.
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:47 PM   #5
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I agree with sgnellett but I voted undecided because I wasn't there. It does appear to clearly be an example of excessive force. Not suprising by any means.

However, If his time to speak was up and security was asked to remove him from the podium and he fought back.... I mean it could go either way.

Hell, I don't know. If he was being removed for what he was saying that's wrong. If his time was up and he was being a dick he got what he had coming after fighting the security officers.

I couldn't hear the audio at work but I can't see that making much difference in my opinion.
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:54 PM   #6
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Pefect example of media bullcrap editing and chopping a video to make it seem worse then it really is. Takes a third party website to post an unaltered video, grats www.break.com.

Think the cops went a little too far, but if he had been calm and stopped resisting I dont think it would have went down the way it did.

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I couldn't hear the audio at work but I can't see that making much difference in my opinion.
If you listen to the audio it'll prolly make you lean more to the undecided decision.

In the first video they edited the video to make it look like he dident get to ask his question and they just pulled him away, way to go CNN.

In the second full unedited video he got to ask his question and they asked him to hurry up and ask his question. He then proceeded to tell him he had more questions to ask, and they cut him off and tried to make him leave.

I prolly would have put a stun gun to his crazy college kid arse my self.

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Old 09-18-2007, 04:23 PM   #7
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I'll explain it simply - and most of you won't understand anyway.

When a potential presidential candidate goes to any type of public forum, security will be tight. Anyone who starts acting up will be removed. He apparently broke the rules of how they were to conduct the forum, and they tried to remove him.

He was asked to go several times. He did not. The police then tried to escort him away, and he pulled away and began screaming (on it's face, this is resisting an officer). Verbal commands and a simple escort did not work. They then basically tried to pull carry away. He again resisted, and continued to resist while continuing to yell. The officers ordered him to comply several times and then warned him he would be tased if he did not. They then made good on their warning.

It's fairly simple - you go to something where presidential candidates are present and start making an ass of yourself, you will likely be told to leave. If you do not, you will be forced to leave. It's not up to you to decide when and where. You can yell and bitch all you want in your house in your neighborhood, but at something like this, there are (rightly so) rules of conduct.

On the MSNBC clip, they are obviously pretty biased about the action, but this is nothing out of the ordinary. The guy kept yelling he had done nothing wrong, but he had - numerous times.

Sgnellett says that until he presents a physical threat to people or property, the police cannot take such action. This is wrong in all 50 states. Officers are held to the "reasonable force" standard. If you have given verbal commands to stop, and that did not work, it is not reasonable to expect that it will magically work if you give the command again. If a simple escort position didn't work (and in this case, the guy is willing to wrestle you to the ground to try to escape it), you don't have to keep trying that. In fact, the officers gave him ample opportunity to just walk out. He fought them.

It is hard to handcuff someone who doesn't want to be handcuffed. If you don't believe me, try it sometime. If you haven't - you don't have any right to criticize those who do. They gave him warnings about what would happen, and he decided to 'fight the power.' He lost.

The cops did not use excessive force at any time - they used their body weight to hold him down on the floor, and when the suspect refused to comply with their orders while he was actively physically resisting them, they used their taser.

Anyone who says "he was arrested just for asking a question" obviously didn't see all of what happened in between him asking his first question and hsi ultimate arrest. Or they are ignoring what happened. This is what we call "bias". You don't want to see what is right in front of you. That's great and all, but you apply this in the real world to real criminal cases, and you will lose.

Discuss (can't wait for all the expertise to come out on this one).
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:29 PM   #8
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Great post, well said and thought out.

I got this reply from someone on another forum.

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i dont see a difference in the two videos. they both violated that student's freedom of speech.


this goes to show that cops are d***s. and cops don't know what to do in a situation where they're angry yet they can't do anything. so they act out of frustration, take the power and law into their own hands and provide their version of justice. those cops involved in that incident should have their badges taken away and tried for police brutality.

and i am surprised john kerry did not stop the police himself.

kerry and the police violated that kid's freedom of speech. a crime in itself.

and lev, he was not resisting arrest. because they were not arresting him. they were harassing him. and when they finally pulled out the tazer, they crossed that line and went into brutality.


there is no need to remove someone off the stage with four cops. the dean (who i'm sure was there) or some other administrator could have walked on stage and asked him to come off the stage.

and the kid's right, kerry has been yapping away for hours and the kid can't have more than 3 minutes to ask his question?

america's freedom and its bill of rights are becoming thinner everyday.
I dang near choked up my Mcdonalds fries on that one. And if you dont mind im going to send him your post.

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Old 09-18-2007, 04:36 PM   #9
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SPDSNYPR x2!

I've been in Law Enforcement most of my adult life, (which is short so I only have 5yrs exper.) but he is correct. They didn't escalate the force continuum, he did. He resististed verbal commands, and then soft hand techniques, so they went to the next rung on the ladder of force.

However I feel that the officer that was laughing acted unprofessional.
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:41 PM   #10
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:55 PM   #11
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Thats Bs Completely Unnecessary
Glad to see it when people chime in with well-thought-out responses based upon their years of expertise and knowledge on a subject. Warms my heart.
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:56 PM   #12
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I'll stick with what I said here...

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Hell, I don't know. If he was being removed for what he was saying that's wrong. If his time was up and he was being a dick he got what he had coming after fighting the security officers.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:19 PM   #13
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Now I agree with everything up until the tasing part. There were, what looked to be, 5 officers holding him down. When the taser was introduce, I believe that to be unnecessary force. If 5 officers can not coerce someone into putting on handcuffs, then maybe they should get people who have better experience with putting on cuffs come in.(and thats not a pot shot, so dont take it as one, I mean it literally.Ask someone who has more experience dealing with that to help you out)
Granted the kid was being a pain in the ass, the cops went to far with the tasing, then laughing.

And please, keep the siding, sarcastic remarks to a minimum. It only belittles and promotes a more hostile atmosphere. We all have our opinions and all present them in a different light. Give reasons/measured arguments as to why you do not like what said and you will almost always get whatever reasonable response you are looking for. Thanks guys.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:34 PM   #14
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Let the kid talk, especially if Kerry is cooperating
I think the cops went a little to far
I understand he was a little annoying, but let him talk
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:53 PM   #15
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Now I agree with everything up until the tasing part. There were, what looked to be, 5 officers holding him down. When the taser was introduce, I believe that to be unnecessary force. If 5 officers can not coerce someone into putting on handcuffs, then maybe they should get people who have better experience with putting on cuffs come in.(and thats not a pot shot, so dont take it as one, I mean it literally.Ask someone who has more experience dealing with that to help you out)
Granted the kid was being a pain in the ass, the cops went to far with the tasing, then laughing.

And please, keep the siding, sarcastic remarks to a minimum. It only belittles and promotes a more hostile atmosphere. We all have our opinions and all present them in a different light. Give reasons/measured arguments as to why you do not like what said and you will almost always get whatever reasonable response you are looking for. Thanks guys.
This brings up a very good point that many people once again do not understand - force options.

Yes, there was what we jokingly call a 'pig pile' on this guy - a lot of wight to stabilise him and hold him down. Was the taser unnecessary? Absolutley not.

If the guy does like most people and puts his hands under him, refusing to give them up (which is likely), you have few options on how to get them out. Going muscle against muscle gives a high potential for injury (strained muscles, joint injury, tendon injury, etc) to both parties (cops and suspects). Prying out his arms with a baton can cause similar injury to the suspect.

You can use softening techniques (blows to area which cause pain, numbness, and loss of control of a muscle group). This, of course, looks like you are just beating the guy to those who don't understand what you are trying to do. This constitutes the bulk of people, and then you have to explain that on the internet forums to dispel all of the ignorant commentary that crops up.

Chemical agents can be used to gain complaince - but in a auditorium full of people, this is just a bad idea. There will be lots of folks who get contaminated and will have ill effects (even if only temporary, these agents are painful and bystanders usually don't appreciate getting the splash off the spray - nor do the cops in close).

The taser gives you the unique ability to cause temporary pain and loss of muscle control without injury. There have been some widely publicised cases of people dying after being tased - but invariably these people had taken large doses of either cocaine or meth proir to their behavior (which caused the confrontation with police) and subsequent death. People die in custody of the same thing all the time - you just don't hear about it.

I am calling this from watching this tape I think twice now - but it seems to me that the officers involved used the force options available to them that had the least likelihood of causing injury to the suspect and no chance of effecting the crowd - the taser. They were well within their use of force continuum if their policies are anything like the rest of the nation's departments.

To me - someone who has had to control people who don't want you to do so - this looks completely normal and reasonable. To those who don't (or refuse to) know the difference, it really does look bad. Any use of force does. I didn't notice anyone laughing (I was watching the techniques, not the expression of those involved) - but I'm sure it happened. Sometimes in stress sutuations, people laugh. It's another thing that happens that is difficult to control. Cops are not robots - they have emotions, whether the viewing public likes it or not. That's part of life. Some people cry when they have sex. Some people (like me) laugh when something hurts them (I don't know why - but someone pointed it out to me at a defensive tactics class I was in - every time something hurt me pretty bad, I would laugh - I didn't even realize I was doing it, and it is a simple stress response). Does that mean I am a bad cop, unprofessional, and should be fired? I don't think so - and neither would any other reasonable person - stress makes you do weird things. And - oddly enough - being in a fight where you don't know what the outcome will be (like say - all LE work) is a little stressful.

Hope this helps some - I know many will refuse to try to understand, but I have gotten used to that. Just thought I'd throw out some real world explanations - do with it what you will.
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Old 09-18-2007, 07:48 PM   #16
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I saw the video this morning. He resisted the commands of law enforcement and escalated the situation. He failed to comply and was out of control. I cannot state it better than everyone else has above. I have seen personally that a taser can subdue someone without yourself or someone else getting hurt. It will make you a believer if you see it first hand.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:21 PM   #17
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update: two officers put on leave

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/18/stu...red/index.html
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:27 PM   #18
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Kid brought it on himself, chose your fights carefully, he chose poorly.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:05 PM   #19
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I just think it's funny how a person speaking out against the current establishment is a hero but somehow it's different in this situation. He should have been able to stand there and talk all day long whether Kerry likes it or not. However, when asked to comply, he should have. That is a no win situation and they guys are just doing their job. However, had they not been instructed (or decided on their own) to cut the guy off, maybe he would have bitched and complained and then it would be over w/o incident. Granted, the LEO doesn't know that going into the situation.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:22 PM   #20
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Did you read the entire article?

Starting to sound like a stunt, I thought it looked fishy.

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Old 09-18-2007, 10:35 PM   #21
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I'll explain it simply - and most of you won't understand anyway.

When a potential presidential candidate goes to any type of public forum, security will be tight. Anyone who starts acting up will be removed. He apparently broke the rules of how they were to conduct the forum, and they tried to remove him.

He was asked to go several times. He did not. The police then tried to escort him away, and he pulled away and began screaming (on it's face, this is resisting an officer). Verbal commands and a simple escort did not work. They then basically tried to pull carry away. He again resisted, and continued to resist while continuing to yell. The officers ordered him to comply several times and then warned him he would be tased if he did not. They then made good on their warning.

It's fairly simple - you go to something where presidential candidates are present and start making an ass of yourself, you will likely be told to leave. If you do not, you will be forced to leave. It's not up to you to decide when and where. You can yell and bitch all you want in your house in your neighborhood, but at something like this, there are (rightly so) rules of conduct.

On the MSNBC clip, they are obviously pretty biased about the action, but this is nothing out of the ordinary. The guy kept yelling he had done nothing wrong, but he had - numerous times.

Sgnellett says that until he presents a physical threat to people or property, the police cannot take such action. This is wrong in all 50 states. Officers are held to the "reasonable force" standard. If you have given verbal commands to stop, and that did not work, it is not reasonable to expect that it will magically work if you give the command again. If a simple escort position didn't work (and in this case, the guy is willing to wrestle you to the ground to try to escape it), you don't have to keep trying that. In fact, the officers gave him ample opportunity to just walk out. He fought them.

It is hard to handcuff someone who doesn't want to be handcuffed. If you don't believe me, try it sometime. If you haven't - you don't have any right to criticize those who do. They gave him warnings about what would happen, and he decided to 'fight the power.' He lost.

The cops did not use excessive force at any time - they used their body weight to hold him down on the floor, and when the suspect refused to comply with their orders while he was actively physically resisting them, they used their taser.

Anyone who says "he was arrested just for asking a question" obviously didn't see all of what happened in between him asking his first question and hsi ultimate arrest. Or they are ignoring what happened. This is what we call "bias". You don't want to see what is right in front of you. That's great and all, but you apply this in the real world to real criminal cases, and you will lose.

Discuss (can't wait for all the expertise to come out on this one).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPDSNYPR View Post
Glad to see it when people chime in with well-thought-out responses based upon their years of expertise and knowledge on a subject. Warms my heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPDSNYPR View Post
This brings up a very good point that many people once again do not understand - force options.

Yes, there was what we jokingly call a 'pig pile' on this guy - a lot of wight to stabilise him and hold him down. Was the taser unnecessary? Absolutley not.

If the guy does like most people and puts his hands under him, refusing to give them up (which is likely), you have few options on how to get them out. Going muscle against muscle gives a high potential for injury (strained muscles, joint injury, tendon injury, etc) to both parties (cops and suspects). Prying out his arms with a baton can cause similar injury to the suspect.

You can use softening techniques (blows to area which cause pain, numbness, and loss of control of a muscle group). This, of course, looks like you are just beating the guy to those who don't understand what you are trying to do. This constitutes the bulk of people, and then you have to explain that on the internet forums to dispel all of the ignorant commentary that crops up.

Chemical agents can be used to gain complaince - but in a auditorium full of people, this is just a bad idea. There will be lots of folks who get contaminated and will have ill effects (even if only temporary, these agents are painful and bystanders usually don't appreciate getting the splash off the spray - nor do the cops in close).

The taser gives you the unique ability to cause temporary pain and loss of muscle control without injury. There have been some widely publicised cases of people dying after being tased - but invariably these people had taken large doses of either cocaine or meth proir to their behavior (which caused the confrontation with police) and subsequent death. People die in custody of the same thing all the time - you just don't hear about it.

I am calling this from watching this tape I think twice now - but it seems to me that the officers involved used the force options available to them that had the least likelihood of causing injury to the suspect and no chance of effecting the crowd - the taser. They were well within their use of force continuum if their policies are anything like the rest of the nation's departments.

To me - someone who has had to control people who don't want you to do so - this looks completely normal and reasonable. To those who don't (or refuse to) know the difference, it really does look bad. Any use of force does. I didn't notice anyone laughing (I was watching the techniques, not the expression of those involved) - but I'm sure it happened. Sometimes in stress sutuations, people laugh. It's another thing that happens that is difficult to control. Cops are not robots - they have emotions, whether the viewing public likes it or not. That's part of life. Some people cry when they have sex. Some people (like me) laugh when something hurts them (I don't know why - but someone pointed it out to me at a defensive tactics class I was in - every time something hurt me pretty bad, I would laugh - I didn't even realize I was doing it, and it is a simple stress response). Does that mean I am a bad cop, unprofessional, and should be fired? I don't think so - and neither would any other reasonable person - stress makes you do weird things. And - oddly enough - being in a fight where you don't know what the outcome will be (like say - all LE work) is a little stressful.

Hope this helps some - I know many will refuse to try to understand, but I have gotten used to that. Just thought I'd throw out some real world explanations - do with it what you will.
Man, I don't usually let CNN get me like that, but I commented after having only seen CNN's chopped up video and w/out sound. The impression I got was an overzealous rent-a-cop trying to be a hero, but apparently there was more to this than the initial reports let on. I shouldn't be surprised by this in the least.

I totally support you guys in LE jobs, but as a student at the University of Toledo, I'm a little less than trusting of most college cops. We had a student murdered by a UT cop a few years back, and to this day, I've never been real impressed with the efforts made by the UT police to protect students. We had a rally after the VT shootings in the middle of the mall on campus, and there was not a single armed cop in sight anywhere. But if the President of UT shows up, his car will be escorted across campus by 2 cruisers. Go figure, I'm a little cynical. I guess I owe you real cops an apology on this one...sorry!
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:50 PM   #22
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That guy has a long history of public disobedience and stunts to publicize his political and social views. He bit off a little more than he bargained for on this one. Shock his @ss again!!!
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:53 PM   #23
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That guy has a long history of public disobedience and stunts to publicize his political and social views. He bit off a little more than he bargained for on this one. Shock his @ss again!!!
I would say so he's being charged with a felony. ^_^

His friends are putting together a rally to "Free" him from jail.

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Old 09-19-2007, 02:31 AM   #24
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yea the first video i saw, i was in favor of the student. but, after seeing the other video and reading the entire article, and after SPDSNYPER's explanation of what was going on (bc theres no way im going to argue with his extremely thought out answer that shows he must be a hell of a LEO) im am definitely in favor of the cops. they did do everything they could, and there really is only so much they can do before they have to climb to the next rung of the ladder. plus, after reading that article, the kid sounds like a complete idiot/jokester that was only trying to get in his 15 min of fame
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Old 09-19-2007, 02:41 AM   #25
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Well, I'm glad I came to this thread late, Thanks for covering SNYPER and RIP.

that guy will never be "free" that fel will be on his record for life, thats what you get when you don't follow the rules
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:07 AM   #26
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I think the kid was there to cause trouble/stir things up etc vs asking important questions to Kerry. I am sure we will see and hear many versions. Bottom line the police gave him an opportunity to stop, he didn't.. they did what what they felt they had to do in that situation. Given what has happened at schools in the last few years, I think the tazing part was inline.
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:44 AM   #27
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Well heck the net nanny system here won't let me view any vids so I can't make a call on the vid yet. As far as Police being able to use force, I agree totally with SPD. If several warnings were issued to the kid and he didn't obey the officers then he was resisting and deserved it. When an officer tells you to do something they are usually trying to cool a situation. If words and warnings do not work then they have the right to use non-lethal force IMO. Rules are here for a reason and there is a thin line between freedoms/rights and anarchy.

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Old 09-19-2007, 12:46 PM   #28
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Yes he was being rude removing him i have no problem with take him out of of the room and arrest him i dont think there was a need to tase him at all.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:53 PM   #29
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And not being trained in anything even close to that therefor not knowing nearly as much as SNYPER im just going by what i saw i also didnt know his background and really didnt even know about other techniques in which to control someone i dont really know much about this topic so i will sit back and watch
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Old 09-19-2007, 01:38 PM   #30
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From what I saw, I think the kid went overboard but I don't believe he needed to get the taser. Grab him by the arms and escort him out. If he resist then, beat the hell out of him.

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