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Sport Bar

14K views 99 replies 16 participants last post by  Mr AMC 
#1 ·
What exactly are they talking about when they say they are removing the Sport Bar?
 
#2 ·
Common term "Roll Cage" but the implication of that is that something must easily roll-over if it comes with a factory "roll cage", so it's called a sports bar, because they are added for when people off-road and it is more likely needed. It however is added structure and definitely did it's job in my accident, nearly no intrusion and mainly only glass breakage, not compartment deformity except where it took the hit from the pick-up. But even to aid in traffic accidents etc, they still wouldn't call it a "crah cage" either and for the same reasons.

Why the issue comes up for the JL is that there is a lot of discussion about the new regulations for convertibles and such with some of the exceptions being removed, so it is rumoured that the design has changed the way the windscreen/a-pillar/roof/etc all go together to provide structural integrity, and how this is handled/designed will likely affect the JL as a 'convertible' at a core level, which of course will impact people perception and likely sales also.

So when you see a rendering with everything as a long continuous piece of metal in the roofline, people usually associate it with that change. The possible loss of a fold-down windscreen is associated with both that and also MPG activities like greater earo dynamics and weight savings.
 
#4 ·
Well, Jeep is being tight-lipped about the new tops. All we've seen is a patent application for a rear window that can fold all the way up and fasten flat on top of the roof. It's hard to say what the new tops will actually look like.

The windshield also may still fold, just in a different manner. The A-pillar will likely stay intact. There is a patent application out there that shows a design similar to a closet door. It rolls and folds inside a track at the same time. Seems problematic to me, but would add structural rigidity.

I think the "open air" experience will clearly stay with Wrangler. It's just that they are having to think about future mandates from the government and it's better to design for the future now when a new model is about to be developed, rather than waiting until later when it would be more difficult and costly to do.
 
#7 ·
Of all the rumored changes, this is the one that sticks out as a deal killer for me. I have a picture in my head of a bunch of removable panoramic sunroof panels, nothing at all like removing the whole top. I also read they might actually stick those Jerry can rear tail lights on it, but that's easy enough to replace.

I don't want a bunch of sun roof panels though, no thanks on that. Wait and see I guess.
 
#8 ·
I actually think its a better design. With all of the panels removed, the open air experience is the same. The only difference is that you can remove them by yourself. The current hard top takes 2-3 people to remove. It would be like the Freedom panels except they encompass the entire vehicle. Of course, that is assuming they do it right.
 
#18 ·
@turnbull I truly hope I am wrong, but here is what I am afraid of. I can explain it with our current JKs. Not picking on the JKU, but it illustrates my point better. Think of half doors vs full doors. Full doors give every advantage that half doors do, right? When you roll down the window, you get the same experience as half doors with the uppers removed. No difference between the 2. Lets just get rid of the option for half doors because its just a small section of metal around the window, no one would mind if you did that...

Now look at these:



vs



Now just imagine that little strip of metal forming the box of a hardtop to the rear corners. It would be like having full doors and not being able to remove them. But you can put the windows down, so who cares?

The experience may be similar but you are COMPLETELY changing the look of the vehicle. To me, that would be in a very bad way and would not be in line with the iconic appearance of a CJ/Wrangler.
 
#19 ·
I see what you mean. I still don't think it is any less a convertible, but I can see how it changes the aesthetics. They could paint the top structure black, maybe even matte black, regardless of the color of the body to create the illusion of a traditional roll bar. You definitely won't be able to have a top with a slanted back though. This is something I will have to wait and see before making a judgement.
 
#20 ·
I think you guys are forgetting that when they get rid of the roll cage and replace it with structural members, their layout will be more traditional box shape, not something that have these angles (ie not like a Freelander removable rear). So that rear end will need to have more functional pieces to retain rigidity, even if that ends at the 2nd door it needs to be a larger piece. I'll see if I can put together an illustration of some kind when I'm not at work, to give you an idea of what I mean.
 
#21 ·
I've wanted a wrangler for several years now, and now that I can afford one, I figured I might as well wait for the JL since it's right around the corner. All the confirmed/rumored changes I've seen so far have me excited except for this sport bar business. Here's the way I see it...

Advantages:
- removable panels will be less of a hassle than removing the entire hardtop, and one person can accomplish it
- if equipped with soft panels, most likely wind noise will be cut down from the traditional soft top

Disadvantages:
- changes the lifestyle of the wrangler: no longer will you be able to sit/hang out on the padded sport bar. The frame of the new design would be uncomfortable and too hot in the sun
- if the new frame goes directly across the upper rear of the jeep (basically what it would look like if you removed the tailgate glass from the hardtop), and not set back over the rear seats like the current design, that greatly reduces clearance for large or unusually shaped cargo to fit in the back
- adding multiple panels will create more contact for seals to be placed, and therefore increasing susceptibility for leakage
- just straight up ugly



 
#23 ·
That second image kinda illustrates my point.

Even if the panels were removable (and think of the top panels as removable like in a Renegade), then you have that large structural rear piece there, which is definitely a very different feel than the soft-top. Even with half doors, it still looks very much like a grown-up Tracker/Sidekick rather than a Wrangler IMO.

Renegade roof for reference;

 
#22 ·
Im really not sure what to think of the panels, really I think waiting to see how it turns out is the way to go.
 
#24 ·
I get it now. To me, it isn't a big deal because the current roll bar already has that similar shape, though it would look weird if it looks like it is part of the body. Like I said, I think they should paint the top supports black so it looks separate from the body.
 
#26 ·
Maybe Jeep should go with a vinyl top also... so it looks like it really has a soft top? What you're describing sounds like what Toyota did with the FJ... they made it look the part of a removable roof but... nope, not the same.


Land vehicle Vehicle Car Motor vehicle Automotive tire


To most it is a big deal if the soft top is dropped. I really don't care to have a huge sunroof above me similar to the Renegade. Hell, most every minivan today comes with this configuration... no thanks.


Land vehicle Vehicle Car Regularity rally Jeep
 
#32 ·
I absolutely love how they say "The all-new Wrangler “will also come in a true 3-piece steel roof hardtop.”" as if its something Wrangler owners have been begging for.

Their marketing must have come from software development. Take a bug that make the code unusable and market it as a new feature...
 
#36 ·
The JL windshield, IF it folds, will be simple as pie to do because the A-pillar is a fixed design for the first time in history. No bolts to remove anymore. They won't even exist.

The power "soft top" on the Liberty was called SkySlider and dealerships have reported lots of problems with them, and they are expensive to repair.
 
#38 ·
Artiste's depiction of the new JL options (envisioned w/ promotional opportunity for Louis C.K and Jerry Seinfeld);

2Dr JL


4Dr JLU



So Jolly Looking.

;)
 
#48 ·
This was one of the pics they took of the 2018 out testing. Not quite sure if that is a more traditional fixed roof line exposed under those flaps, but it is definitely not a roll bar(I refuse to call it anything else.)

View attachment 3060505
Also, if you look inside that front right window, it does appear to be a rather large A-pillar support structure at the top of it. It may just be a grip handle, but it's not the normal looking plastic structure in current Wranglers.
 
#50 ·
With the sport bar being replaced, is it possible that the Wrangler will an FJ40 esque reinforcement?
That is the same 'removable'-type of cage/rail/bar that the Wrangler currently has that would be under the axe for anyone looking at future regulations. So if that were the motivator/challenge, then those wouldn't solve the problem.

Let alone that those coat hanger-rails wouldn't hold-up in any kind of rollover/crush scenario, especially with the increased weight of a modern Wrangler.
 
#53 ·
They don't sell 300,000 Corvettes a year. You can't compare sports cars to a mainstream sales item like a Jeep. Apples to oranges. When was the last time IIHS crash tested a Corvette? Exactly. FCA knows that in order to keep the Wrangler alive and well, they have to invest in tomorrow's technology today. That's the entire reason the changes to the "sport bar" have been a hot topic for the last two years to begin with.

Media coverage of safety issues is what effectively killed off the CJ. Jeep knew then that they'd have to make drastic changes if they wanted to keep selling them, so they went back to the drawing board and the YJ was born. People hated the YJ for years...but it was better than no Jeep at all.
 
#54 ·
They don't sell 300,000 Corvettes a year. You can't compare sports cars to a mainstream sales item like a Jeep. Apples to oranges. When was the last time IIHS crash tested a Corvette? Exactly. FCA knows that in order to keep the Wrangler alive and well, they have to invest in tomorrow's technology today. That's the entire reason the changes to the "sport bar" have been a hot topic for the last two years to begin with.
Who is comparing the Wrangler to a Corvette?

Anyway, you say that FCA needs to do this in order to keep the Wrangler alive, yet most convertibles have no top support at all. The Wrangler is already ahead of the game in that regard. There is no reason to change it.
 
#62 ·
Turnbul, guess we have to agree to disagree here.
Economists nowadays think of only one posdible selfsustainable market, and it is not USA nor China, is the world. Allother options are hard to follow when not even leading to protectionism

The Detroit crisis and particularely Chrysler 's one has little to do with wars and it traces long backward in time do the end of the era of selfsustainable markets and the advent of globalization.

You forget for example that in 2008 the entire world was on an economic crisis, after the rally of stocks in the previous 5 years. The crisis originated in Usa with the "subprime" loans etc...
You also forget to say that Chrysler was previously salvaged by Daimler which at that time backed off. Little to do with Sergio or alfa romeo.
You may also be amazed to know that your counterpart alfa romeo fans in Europe see it compketely reversed and think of Sergio being privilefing the north American products and killing European brands like alfa in particular proposing models like an suv (not in alfa's DNA) and killing the spider-duetto. Not talking about Lancia that now just rebages Chrysler's mid size sedans.

All those strategies not necessarily are the best but the goal is one and only. Increase the volumes.
With no volumes you will not sustain the business. Nor the plants, nor the research, nor the sell price and ultimately no profits in North America too, even if sales stay the same in this market, profits wont, without global sales volumes.

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#79 ·
Ape, I think what people are saying is that you keep mentioning that this is a "balancing" act, but what are they balancing? In other words, what is the downside to keeping the current roll bar design?

That is what I am wondering anyway. If you are going to mention regulations, I'd like to know how other car companies with convertibles are going to solve the same issue. I realize you may not know the answer, but there also may not BE an answer, which is why I am skeptical of "regulations" being the issue.
 
#80 ·
That is what I am wondering anyway. If you are going to mention regulations, I'd like to know how other car companies with convertibles are going to solve the same issue. I realize you may not know the answer, but there also may not BE an answer, which is why I am skeptical of "regulations" being the issue.
Hands down this has been one of the best threads I've ever read on this forum... you guys should be writing for Four Wheeler.
I see where you guys keep mentioning the demise of the roll (sport) bar will be at the hands of tighter federal regulations relating to crash worthiness. Well, if we were to see the sport bar fade away could it be because of something much simpler? Customer complaints. I think what we have seen since 2007 and the introduction of the Freedom Top and it's infamous panels has been a steady line of people complaining about leaks. While some would be returning to the dealerships for serious leak issues, others would be there also complaining about minor drips. If there's one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb when it came time to redesign the new Wrangler... it was the Freedom Panels. Granted, their design was not to blame for all the water incursion issues, but they were to blame for the brunt of them. I have always felt that the introduction of the 4dr Wrangler is what brought about the Freedom Top design... without them removal of that JKU top would be quite an undertaking.
So could this be the reason for the rollbars death knell? It very well could be... do I agree with it? Absolutely not. My Freedom Panels let in a bit of water every once in awhile... doesnt bother me though as I've owned plenty of Jeeps from CJs to my current JK. But it did and it does bother others... enough to clog up the dealership service bays.
I also believe there could be a cost savings involved here as far as FCA is concerned and possibly a quicker assembly line time involved too. Remember, they are trying to streamline everything in Toledo these days, more so than ever. It wasn't long ago that Toledo was afraid they could lose the Wrangler contract all together. It could be that some number crunchers saw a few jobs that could be deleted by axeing the sport bar... a few minutes saved by going with a fully enclosed body shell....
Just my thought guys. I just think there's more at play here than government or European regulations.
 
#82 ·
Not much logical indeed. Let me say that some people who drink and drive also can forget the seat belts, so the 35 may also double but still...
Point is that a agree with greatape the sometimes there is an excessive jingoism in many comments here (and I have my own theory to explain for it) but in this particular case, roll bars are abandoned for panels, I do not believe it will be for unmatchable converible regulations but rather for a strategy of the manifacturer. It may involve a number of reasons, including meeting some specifications at a lesser cost to make simpler to strip down the car but still manually etc...

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