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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-25-2008 05:36 PM
amy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccain View Post
"AK-47 - The very best there is. When you absolutely positively gotta kill every mother***ker in the room....






Accept no substitutes."
Even Gandalf agrees...
04-25-2008 03:04 PM
ccain "AK-47 - The very best there is. When you absolutely positively gotta kill every mother***ker in the room....






Accept no substitutes."
04-25-2008 01:23 PM
dj_chizzle great story dare
04-25-2008 12:37 PM
SPDSNYPR Awesome.
04-25-2008 12:28 PM
Dare2BSquare Thought you all would enjoy this...

Investigators say they were definitely going to rob him - possibly even kill him.

But an 80-year-old North Texan wasn't about to let that happen, so he took action.

One of the suspects is in the hospital and both are facing charges.

Two men obviously thought James Pickett, 80, was an easy target when they showed up at his home on Saturday with a knife.

"He just came through that door, stabbing and beating," said Pickett.

Captain Clint Pullin said it looked as though the men wanted to kill him.

But before you worry too much about Pickett, learn a bit more about him.

He's a WWII veteran, former firefighter and lifelong John Wayne devotee.

In short, even at 80, he is someone you just don't mess with.

What the men didn't know is Picket had taken a pistol and put it in his pocket before opening the door.

The brothers may have planned to kill James Pickett, investigators say. "He jumped and turned and I shot him," Picket said.

The two brothers, Paul and Holden Perry, ran but didn't get far before calling an ambulance.

A bullet just missed Paul Perry's spine.

"The only problem was I run out of bullets," Picket said.

A neighbor describes Picket as a "hero."

Worried about retribution, friends are sticking close.

Both brothers face assault, burglary and robbery charges.

Deputies assure James Pickett they aren't likely to get out of jail anytime soon but he isn't worried.

"I think I'm a ten times better shot than and he is... But they best not come back," he said.
04-19-2008 09:28 PM
4Jeepn Voted for AK. Reasons as follows:

AK Will fire just about every time, will knock him/ her down. vs the AR which could jam, when you need it most. (have owned both) Shot gun not enough rounds if you get into a fire fight, and with S&w again not enough ammo, Glock.. would carry it as back up. Thus give me the most rounds with the least chance of a jam that will stop somebody cold.
04-19-2008 12:11 PM
SPDSNYPR Thanks, Skeeter. Guys, I'm not trying to attack your opinion on what is the best HD weapon at all. You'll note that at no point did I give my opinion on what is the best (for a reason). In fact, I think the 12 guage is a great choice. But not for the reasons that everyone is listing. Many of those are just myths, and I am trying to educate people on why they are not valid - not say that their choice of weapon is wrong at all.

I have been to a lot of training, seen a lot of gunshot wounds, and even had to do some self defense shooting (unfortunately). I have learned a lot over the years, and I have learned that all of the MYTHS listed above are wrong - not because of my opinion, but because of FACTS. Do a little research - go shoot a target at five yards - the average distance inside your house - and see if the shot spreads out or not. Hint - it doesn't. That's not an opinion, it is a FACT. The average gunfight happens at feet - not yards. That doesn't change because of what gun you have in you hand - again, that's a statistical FACT. If you just "point" because your aim sucks, you will miss. FACT.

Buckshot will overpenetrate both people and interior walls. FACT. Birdshot will not penetrate people well enough to incapacitate them by all accepted standards (in both bare geletin and through standard intermediate barriers that are used for testing) - again, this is FACT.

Racking a shotgun could scare someone off - but has never been proven to be a fight stopper - not opinion, but FACT. There has never been any anything ever published to prove that this is valid. I have years on the street to tell me the exact opposite - so it may be an opinion, but it is a very supportable opinion, and you will not find a decent firearms instructor or tactics instructor who will ever tell their students to consider this myth as good info. You will hear about every gunstore salesman perpetuate this myth - whch as far as I'm concerned is reason enough to say that it is absolutely untrue.

Firearms are great fun, but when you have to use them, they are serious business. What I have said is the gospel. It is well established fact that is known to everyone who has done even a little research on the subject. Once again - I think shotguns are great home defense tools, and are very viable in that role. But let's please stop passing on myths regarding why they are good. They are not "point and shoot" weapons at all. Period. They do not penetrate less than anything else. Period. The sound cannot be counted on the scare off people, and it is bad tactics to make a production out of loading your weapon. Period. They are not faster to load than anything else. Period. They are not less prone to malfunction than other weapons. Period.

THEY ARE GREAT SELF DEFENSE TOOLS TO SOMEONE WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH THEM AND CAN OPERATE THEM UNDER STRESS.

Did we hear and see that? That is an opinion, but one based on facts. Please stop perpetuating myths that if, God forbid someone has to use one, will get them or some innocent person killed because they believed some bullshit they heard at a gunshow or the internet. It is irresponsible, and while it doesn't make me angry, I will correct anyone who I see passing on these wive's tales. Take it or leave it. Be the one with the right info, or be "that guy" who most people know is full of BS because they spout off info that is wrong. Your choice.

Sorry for the rant.
04-19-2008 05:09 AM
skeeter I didn't attack you.
I posted the box of truth because it's a verifiable, reproduceable demonstration of the penetrating ability of various shotgun loads, it also demonstrates the lack of spread from a shotgun blast at the close ranges you're likely to encounter in a home defense situation.
Nobody needs to get their panties in a bunch over this discussion however their are commonly held misconceptions about the effectiveness and safety of using a shotgun that can lead to very unfortunate results if not corrected.
It's not opinion that bird shot lacks the penetrating ability to reliably stop an attacker.
It's not opinion that even bird shot will penetrate an interior wall and still retain enough energy to injure someone on the other side.
It's not opinion that a shotgun blast has very little spread at close range so there is still a need to aim.
There's nothing wrong with using a shotgun for home defense as long as you recognize those easily proven facts and use the shotgun accordingly.
For me, I prefer a pistol for it's ease in concealment, it's ease in reloading and the fact that it's harder for an attacker at close range to grab it and control the muzzle.

If you disagree with any of my assertions, please point them out and I'll attempt to find more credible sources to back my claims.
04-19-2008 01:17 AM
XNeoJesterX I could type pages of counter points and arguements backed up by facts, personal experiance and the opinions of law enforcement officers, Army special forces 7th group captains, NRA shooting instructors and olympic marksmen. (no one else has given any credible facts to back up there opinions, and dont try telling me "theboxotruth" can be counted as credible cause then youll tell me youtube is high quality cinematography and filmmaking), but honestly I dont feel its worth my time or energy. I do feel its worth my time and energy tho to state that it was asked of everyone to give there opinion and opinions by definition cant be wrong. I read your opinions/claims, and and respectfully took them for what they were. I then responded to the origanal posted question with my own opinions. If you would like to debate these issues with well researched facts to back up our arguements in a civalized gramatically correct setting I will be more then happy to, but if we are just shooting the breeze on an off topic discussion forum then please dont attack me or put me down for my opinion that i gave because you ask for it. kthanxbye
04-18-2008 10:24 PM
skeeter For the most part, I believe SPDSNYPR is correct.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
04-18-2008 10:21 PM
Dare2BSquare
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
I can't buy a gun since I got out of the loony bin a couple weeks ago.
Wasn't that about the time of CCain's arrival?
04-18-2008 10:01 PM
whiteyj
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPDSNYPR View Post
Ummm . . . . . see my post five above your. Almost all of what you say is wrong (item C of you lst is somewhat right - even though there is no such thing as "stopping power"), but they are common misconceptions.

Spyder,,,One mans opion doesn't make it gospel. I too had many years in LE. You make some valid points but I do not agree with you in a HD situation. I have been through many classes and have been an instructor for over ten years. HD tactics are VERY different than LE survival tactics on the street. Another example would be the tactics our troops utilize in combat. Still different yet from LE tactics.
04-18-2008 08:58 PM
tiny terror I can't buy a gun since I got out of the loony bin a couple weeks ago.
04-18-2008 08:53 PM
XNeoJesterX
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPDSNYPR View Post
Ummm . . . . . see my post five above your. Almost all of what you say is wrong (item C of you lst is somewhat right - even though there is no such thing as "stopping power"), but they are common misconceptions.
Just because you posted your opinion of something doesnt make it correct.
04-18-2008 04:09 PM
SPDSNYPR
Quote:
Originally Posted by XNeoJesterX View Post
rem 870 12ga because:
A) the sound of the action alone will scare off many criminals
B) it is the least likely to go through a wall or two hit something other then the criminal
C) the shotgun is most damaging and has the most stopping power at close range
D) you dont have to be a marksmen to hit a moving target, or any target for that matter, with a shotgun
E) Shotgun takes the least time to chamber a round

Personally I keep my Mossberg 935 semi auto 12ga with 3" Federal Premium Magshok - Heavyweight Turkey and my H&K UPS compact .40 with hollow points for home defence situations
Ummm . . . . . see my post five above your. Almost all of what you say is wrong (item C of you lst is somewhat right - even though there is no such thing as "stopping power"), but they are common misconceptions.
04-18-2008 02:10 PM
XNeoJesterX rem 870 12ga because:
A) the sound of the action alone will scare off many criminals
B) it is the least likely to go through a wall or two hit something other then the criminal
C) the shotgun is most damaging and has the most stopping power at close range
D) you dont have to be a marksmen to hit a moving target, or any target for that matter, with a shotgun
E) Shotgun takes the least time to chamber a round

Personally I keep my Mossberg 935 semi auto 12ga with 3" Federal Premium Magshok - Heavyweight Turkey and my H&K UPS compact .40 with hollow points for home defence situations
04-18-2008 02:01 PM
Dare2BSquare In case they catch you in the bathtub...

http://splodetv.com/33-rounds-underwater
04-16-2008 05:17 PM
JCS05Rubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPDSNYPR View Post
Well, it seems the shotgun is the clear choice of most people. Unfortunately, it seems to come along with the typical wive's tales that always accompany it.

1. "All you have to do is point" - WRONG!!!. A shotgun inside a house has to be aimed like a rifle or you will miss. Period. No matter what your choke is, it will be very tight at CQB distances. Think of your shot column as a rifle bullet.

2. "The racking of the shotgun will scare them off" - WRONG!!! Racking the shotgun is posturing. It is saying "I'm big and bad, be scared of me". Most people who kick down your door are not playing that game. Racking your shotgun tells them where you are, that you're armed, and that they should definitely start shooting in your direction (they are not worried about hitting your neighbors or kids - they are bad guys). If you need to pump your shotgun, do it quietly - otherwise you lose any and all element of surprise, and that is bad tactics in anyone's book.

3. "Pump shotguns are ultra-reliable." Go to any firearms training class that covers pistols, carbines, and shotguns. Keep track of the number of failures each has, whether user induced or not. Over 12 years of LE, I see more people cause a shotgun to malfunction that anything else. Loading is more difficult than any of the rest of the weapons, and for it to function properly, you have to do it just right. Most people don't when under stress. Simple fact of life - the fumble factor.

4. "Shotguns won't over-penetrate" - well, maybe. If you are using anything appropriate for self defense (ie, 00 buck or slugs), it will over-penetrate like crazy. The only thing likely to over-penetrate more on this list is the AK with FMJ's. Using lighter shot is not the answer. It really isn't Using a light bird shot will reduce your penetration in a human to unusable levels. Yes, they will have a big nasty wound. But it has a very high chance of not reaching vital organ, and therefore cannot be counted on to stop them (unless you want to count on that person being prone to a psychological stop).

I think the shotgun is a very viable self defense tool, but not for the reasons many people think it is. If you can keep your wits about you and run the gun, it can be devestating. Just most people can't - no matter what they think of their skill level. The key there is training - which most people don't get. If it's a choice for most people to spend $1000 on a 3-day training class or a new gun, most will get a new gun. I understand it - I have fallen into the "I want a new toy" trap a zillion times. But over the last several years, I have pared down the number of social weapons I have to a few types that I operate extremely well. I think most people would be well served to figure out what they want, and spend their time and effort on training with it.

I have enjoyed the opinions, though - even if I do disagree with some of them. Never hurts to hear new stuff.
SPDSNYPR, I could not agree with you more. See my post #23, as well as some PMs I have had with MoZ Too much BS on television, and too much mis-information from gun owners themselves. Although, I do think the .410 shotgun with a surefire is the #1 home self defense weapon. Will not penetrate nearly as many walls, but has proven ballistically that it can and will stop a threat just as well as most other firearms.

Not to mention, that clearing your house with a shotgun, either to hit them with a surefire and blind them, or to rack it and hope that run away, is never the best solution. Unless you live in FL and have a shoot first, as questions later law The only thing you need to do when someone is breaking in your house, is to get you and your loved ones into a closet facing your bedroom door, or a corner facing the door, lock that door, and call the police AND KEEP THEM ON THE PHONE FOR EVIDENCE. If the intruder attempts to enter, thats your call weather you want to verbally warn him of a loaded firearm and his threat to you, or to hold your position quietly. Both have positives and negative. If you hold and don't warn, there MAY be some legal repercussions. If you do, who's to say that he isn't going to start laying down rounds through the drywall in your general direction by your voice?

All in all, I like the discussion. Good for everyone to discuss their own views and opinions, as no one will ever feel the same way.
04-16-2008 05:03 PM
SPDSNYPR Understandable. But Chuck Norris is just as likely to roundhouse you as whoever you're having a problem with. Then he'll have his way with your wife. He can do that. He's Chuck Norris.
04-16-2008 03:40 PM
kg4kpg I was particular fond of my M-4 carbine. But, when I'm not armed...and the neighborhood is going to crap....I just call....



One more.
04-16-2008 02:59 PM
SPDSNYPR Well, it seems the shotgun is the clear choice of most people. Unfortunately, it seems to come along with the typical wive's tales that always accompany it.

1. "All you have to do is point" - WRONG!!!. A shotgun inside a house has to be aimed like a rifle or you will miss. Period. No matter what your choke is, it will be very tight at CQB distances. Think of your shot column as a rifle bullet.

2. "The racking of the shotgun will scare them off" - WRONG!!! Racking the shotgun is posturing. It is saying "I'm big and bad, be scared of me". Most people who kick down your door are not playing that game. Racking your shotgun tells them where you are, that you're armed, and that they should definitely start shooting in your direction (they are not worried about hitting your neighbors or kids - they are bad guys). If you need to pump your shotgun, do it quietly - otherwise you lose any and all element of surprise, and that is bad tactics in anyone's book.

3. "Pump shotguns are ultra-reliable." Go to any firearms training class that covers pistols, carbines, and shotguns. Keep track of the number of failures each has, whether user induced or not. Over 12 years of LE, I see more people cause a shotgun to malfunction that anything else. Loading is more difficult than any of the rest of the weapons, and for it to function properly, you have to do it just right. Most people don't when under stress. Simple fact of life - the fumble factor.

4. "Shotguns won't over-penetrate" - well, maybe. If you are using anything appropriate for self defense (ie, 00 buck or slugs), it will over-penetrate like crazy. The only thing likely to over-penetrate more on this list is the AK with FMJ's. Using lighter shot is not the answer. It really isn't Using a light bird shot will reduce your penetration in a human to unusable levels. Yes, they will have a big nasty wound. But it has a very high chance of not reaching vital organ, and therefore cannot be counted on to stop them (unless you want to count on that person being prone to a psychological stop).

I think the shotgun is a very viable self defense tool, but not for the reasons many people think it is. If you can keep your wits about you and run the gun, it can be devestating. Just most people can't - no matter what they think of their skill level. The key there is training - which most people don't get. If it's a choice for most people to spend $1000 on a 3-day training class or a new gun, most will get a new gun. I understand it - I have fallen into the "I want a new toy" trap a zillion times. But over the last several years, I have pared down the number of social weapons I have to a few types that I operate extremely well. I think most people would be well served to figure out what they want, and spend their time and effort on training with it.

I have enjoyed the opinions, though - even if I do disagree with some of them. Never hurts to hear new stuff.
04-16-2008 08:52 AM
KicknJeep doesn't Wallyworld sell mostly shotguns? How do you trace a crime to said gun unless they leave it behind? I guess some stores probably still sell handguns if so not a bad idea to have a face to go with a gun sale. But I guess it's just my opinion.
04-15-2008 09:59 AM
Dare2BSquare Just a side note.

Did you guys see the report that Wal-Mart, the largest gun seller in the nation is about to start videotaping every gun purchase, and will have a data base of any gun that is purchased at Wal-Mart and then used in a crime anywhere in the country.

Just another reason not to buy guns a Wal-Mart.
04-15-2008 09:59 AM
crj101 Possibly my G20 w/M3 or my Mossberg 590 w/ surefire w/presser switch!
04-15-2008 08:57 AM
whitebuffalo
Quote:
Originally Posted by KicknJeep View Post
Lets hope no one here has to face this situation
i already have
04-15-2008 08:15 AM
KicknJeep JCS trust me by the time the piece of crap sees the surefire it's too late for him, Also my s-gun will be locked and loaded and is ready to go. my family has a plan for such a situation as well as a fire plan. oh and the gun does have a lock on it and it can be unlocked in a quick second. Besides with the surefire I want to make sure of my target before firing if needed. Lets hope no one here has to face this situation
04-14-2008 01:31 PM
whitebuffalo id opt for the scattergun. my 2nd choice would be the glock. in fact, thats exactly what i keep close at hand for just such situations (diff models though). i have each of them nearby, with the choice going to how much time i have (i.e. how close the intruder is-if they're already in my bedroom, Mr. Glock is gonna do the dirty work).
04-14-2008 11:19 AM
MOz Nothing says hello better to the bad guy than a round being racked up in a shotgun... It's a sound that is unmistakeable.....no warning is required and you don't have to be too picky where you point it.
04-14-2008 10:12 AM
parrot head
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Of those listed, I'd go for the AK.
30 rounds with the capability of effectively penetrating cover, it should be able to handle whatever scenario you wish to build.

The only things I own from your list are a .38 and an AK.
Everything on the list will over penetrate. don't think that it won't. Even bird shot will go through walls and shotgun blasts won't spread much at all at inside the home ranges, you still need to aim.

My normal go to gun for strange noises in the night is my 1911 and a spare mag. Large enough to handle an intruder but small enough to conceal should I need to move outside the house.
X2. My 1911 officers acp. It packs awesome stopping power, you don't even have to hit center mass! God created man, Sam Colt made them equal!
04-14-2008 12:35 AM
amy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare2BSquare View Post
Can't we all just get along?
Well, we can. It's those others that can't.
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