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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-20-2013 02:38 PM
grey-ghost
Need mechanic referral - Los Angeles

So it seems that my poor little 2002 Wrangler (build date Dec '01) probably has the "bad" engine. Mysterious loss of coolant ... oil pressure drop etc I tried the "flashlight" trick to see if I could see the TUPY stamp thru the oil filler cap ... no visible stamp. I haven't yet pulled the cover to "be sure", but I'm just gonna call it and replace the engine. (The issue has been going on for a couple years now. No one could figure out what was going on.)

I have done my research (but am, obviously open to hearing suggestions!) on which engine to get ... but I can't find a mechanic in Los Angeles that will do the swap. They all want to "procure" the engine through their sources, but then can't guarantee that it won't be the same non-TUPY engine.

Anybody have any ideas for Los Angeles? (I'm in Hollywood)

your help is greatly appreciated!
06-03-2012 03:29 PM
alohagirl75 Im so glad I brought this up. This has been very informative. Now I wish Wish WISH they would figure out what is wrong with my JEEP! Its been 2 weeks now and Im not sure if they know what wrong with her!! I MISS her deeply!
06-02-2012 11:10 AM
Border Dave I just want to say thank you to XJ Knight for bringing this issue to my attention in this thread. Without his post, I might not have found this problem until I was stranded on the side of the road somewhere with catastrophic engine failure, not to mention all the money I'd spend in coolant, oil, and subsequent repairs in the meantime.
06-01-2012 09:17 PM
cphilip Not necessarily... plenty of people have 00 and 01 TJs with high miles and no problems at all. Keep the faith!
06-01-2012 09:14 PM
lwszabo
Quote:
Originally Posted by cphilip
It apparently was so inconsistent and the overall numbers were not sufficient to force a recall. Its not a safety issue either so its unlikely to get them to be scared enough to volunteer.

It appears that there are plenty of 00 and 01 heads that haven't cracked. It may be simply a random thing.

It was worse in other models than the TJ by the way.

Go look and see and report back if you see the TUPY right there under the oil fill cap. Not heard yet from any 2001 owners with one.
I will check tomorrow, I have googled 2001 Tupy and nothing. And up so I bet I will be out of luck!
06-01-2012 09:01 PM
cphilip It apparently was so inconsistent and the overall numbers were not sufficient to force a recall. Its not a safety issue either so its unlikely to get them to be scared enough to volunteer.

It appears that there are plenty of 00 and 01 heads that haven't cracked. It may be simply a random thing.

It was worse in other models than the TJ by the way.

Go look and see and report back if you see the TUPY right there under the oil fill cap. Not heard yet from any 2001 owners with one.
06-01-2012 08:47 PM
lwszabo I just don't get why Chrysler wouldn't of had a recall on this?!?!
06-01-2012 08:44 PM
lwszabo
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ Knight
It is.. 01 has the faulty head.. late 01 saw the fix and labled with tuppy on the head as seen above.. best check to see if yours has tuppy on it.. if not.. just hang out and pray. Maybe you get lucky
I need to check it. If it don't have Tupy I may just bite the bullet and have it replaced. I guess it's cheap insurance over possibly destroying my engine.
06-01-2012 08:30 PM
XJ Knight It is.. 01 has the faulty head.. late 01 saw the fix and labled with tuppy on the head as seen above.. best check to see if yours has tuppy on it.. if not.. just hang out and pray. Maybe you get lucky
06-01-2012 08:25 PM
lwszabo I have an 01 built in February of 2001... Hoping and praying it's not a bad year!!! (0331 head!)
06-01-2012 08:01 PM
cphilip Sorry to hear this.
06-01-2012 06:52 PM
Border Dave Well, it's official. I just got back from the shop and saw that I have a good size crack in the cylinder head (casting 0331) between the number 3 and 4 cylinders. This photo was taken after the cooling system was pressurized for about 5 seconds:


At least I now know where all my coolant's been going. And why my lifters are so loud. And why my oil pressure is low. And etc., etc., etc.
05-29-2012 10:44 PM
cphilip By the way. I just confirmed a 2002 TJ that my Son has, that its build date was January 30th 2002 (via its build sheet) does indeed have a TUPY head in it. And its original too. This can be visibly seen through the Oil fill cap. Not that hard to see with the naked eye at all. Its right under the Oil filler cap.

I got a fuzzy phone cam picture of it too...

Very difficult to do this with a phone cam but you can make it out


05-29-2012 09:35 PM
cphilip Here's a guy who has an 02 and confirmed his head was the later fixed TUPY casting (showing that they were indeed in use in 02) but yet still has a head gasket or crack problem anyway.

Tupy Heads - JeepForum.com

Another confirmation of the fix in 02

Does the 02-06 TJ have the 0331 head? - JeepForum.com

"they changed them sometime around 02..." he says

0331 reman head from Advanced - new casting? - JeepForum.com

Mention that 00's were the worst affected and some 01's... but everyone at this point restricts it to 00 and 01

Another thread about 00 and 01's and talking about fixes occurring in 02

any fixes for the 0331 cylinder head casting on 00-01's? - JeepForum.com

Two guys confirming that they looked and confirmed that "Dec 02 and Nov 02" (they have to mean manufacture months of Nov and Dec in 01 because by NOV and Dec 02 they where making 03's so keep that in mind) all had TUPY heads

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1080033

Heres a couple guys reporting 99-01s with near or over 200K on them with NON Tupy heads! They argue a bit over when the fix was. Mid year 02 one claims. Anther claims simply 02 was fixed.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f310/...issue-1339529/

I think what happened was a few 02s did get reported and got lumped in. And some of these were clearly built in 01 in the early runs of 02's. And it is probably true a few older castings got used into 02 and its hard to say if a few older castings popped in the assembly line even later on in the first half of that model year run. So.... what appears to me to have evolved was the "safe bet" to just include 02 just in case. In fact even 01's before the change showed significant drop in occurrence. So its probably safe to assume most 02s are later castings but that doesn't mean ANY year might not crack. Nor does it mean that something else might happen to any other year. But... its unlikely too.
05-29-2012 09:02 PM
cphilip
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK00TJ View Post
Mine has overheated twice. Once due to a radiator (6 years ago) and once because the water pump went up (6 weeks ago). I have 185k miles on her and still strong with no cracks.
Again... even among those casting years its still pretty small numbers. People forget that. Its not 100%... or maybe even 1% from what we can tell.
05-29-2012 08:59 PM
cphilip
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkaufman_95 View Post
Mines got a bad head at 78k miles and it's an 02...
Build date?

Is it a TUPY marked casting?

Keep in mind that 02s are built from about August to to Dec in 01 most years.

Be interesting to see if its early date and what casting it was.

There have been bad heads on EVERY year... the issue is wether or not its a casting flaw or not.

The jury is out on early 02's (MF year of 01 mostly)... because its supposed a few of them got heads cast in 01. I don't make this up... its just what I find when I read and look hard enough. Read the old thread I linked in subsequent posts in this thread and just do a search of various sites about it... and read the collected data. Its incomplete and unscientific... but it hints at the phase of the change over being in late 01 for the most part.
05-29-2012 08:49 PM
alohagirl75 Wow! Lots of info on that one! Was brought to my attention since I have a Jeep a couple of times now. They are just haters in my opinion, but I thought this would be the place to see if it is true! Interesting info!
05-27-2012 04:59 PM
jkaufman_95
Quote:
Originally Posted by cphilip

I believe the cylinder head issue was corrected for the 02 year.... making that only 00 and 01...

I have seen 02 included in that discussion many times and it has always then been refuted that they did not get the bad heads. So I am concluding that this is the case because the evidence seems to exclude them from this.

And since 05 and 06 had their much publicized issues with the rotor that leaves then only 02-04 as good years in that stretch if you eliminate them for that.

And I think 98 and 99 were pretty good too for that matter.
Mines got a bad head at 78k miles and it's an 02...
05-27-2012 03:41 PM
BLK00TJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufatbasted View Post
Bummer. I just closed a deal on a 2000TJ. I wish I would have known of this issue earlier!
Mine has overheated twice. Once due to a radiator (6 years ago) and once because the water pump went up (6 weeks ago). I have 185k miles on her and still strong with no cracks.
05-27-2012 03:38 PM
GoldenSahara00
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufatbasted

Bummer. I just closed a deal on a 2000TJ. I wish I would have known of this issue earlier!
I'm 130k+ and no issues. I feel like good maintainence will help prevent failure. You should be able to swap the bad ones out for good ones from a yard as well if it does happen.
05-27-2012 03:14 PM
ufatbasted
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ Knight View Post
00-02 were what would if any be considered bad years.. In 2000 The 4.0's and maybe although im not sure the 2.5's got new cylinder heads (0331) that had a copper deficency leaving them defective.. Eventually this leads to the Jeep overheating and the head cracking. Typical range for this issue to arise is between 100-150K although I have read about it happening before and after. It's a fairly expensive fix typically in the 1K range if you can't do the labor yourself. The 0331 head was still used in 03-06 but it was fixed for the 03 model years. Other years had there issues but those can be solved for much less then 1000 dollars.

Bummer. I just closed a deal on a 2000TJ. I wish I would have known of this issue earlier!
05-27-2012 02:22 PM
alkaline It's the year of the dragon. Your jeep will be spitting fire like it just drank everclear.
05-27-2012 11:51 AM
Border Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
They say the crack is obvious if you simply pull the valve cover and pressurize the coolant system. I imagine they use air or water pressure to do that. But they say that coolant can be seen oozing from the crack when there is pressure on that side of the system. You could indeed have a bad head gasket. But replacing the head should fix both as long as you get one of those listed fix heads. The ones from the various places like Alabama Head etc. Lots of threads on those various places. Last costs I saw were in the $500 range and perhaps 500 to 700 for labor.

The issue seems to be the damage by coolant in the lower end can show up later so finding and fixing it early seems to be the best thing. If indeed something like that is already occurring your probably right on the remanufactured motor choice. But its possible to drop the pan and examine the lower end too in order to decide.
OK, thanks. I'll pull the valve cover off tomorrow and take a look. It's kind of strange. I had my mechanic pressurize the radiator a couple weeks ago and it didn't leak down at all. I wonder if it only does it when it's hot.
05-27-2012 09:01 AM
Rayko 05 just over 90K, no major issues.
05-27-2012 08:53 AM
relwell I bought an 03 new off the lot years ago...probably around 2003...and that thing was nothing but trouble. Mismatched bolts, parts that didn't fit, etc. Engine went right after the warranty even with all scheduled maintenance.

Almost positive it is just a bad Jeep instead of a bad year, but I know one or two other 03 owners who also had Friday afternoon specials...and a few that have had no issues at all. Grain of salt, there is always someone who had good/bad experiences with their rig. That being said, my '98 runs like a top and has zero issues approaching 150k
05-27-2012 08:48 AM
cphilip They say the crack is obvious if you simply pull the valve cover and pressurize the coolant system. I imagine they use air or water pressure to do that. But they say that coolant can be seen oozing from the crack when there is pressure on that side of the system. You could indeed have a bad head gasket. But replacing the head should fix both as long as you get one of those listed fix heads. The ones from the various places like Alabama Head etc. Lots of threads on those various places. Last costs I saw were in the $500 range and perhaps 500 to 700 for labor.

The issue seems to be the damage by coolant in the lower end can show up later so finding and fixing it early seems to be the best thing. If indeed something like that is already occurring your probably right on the remanufactured motor choice. But its possible to drop the pan and examine the lower end too in order to decide.
05-27-2012 12:30 AM
Border Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ Knight View Post
Early 0331 heads are prone to cracking and causing coolant to contaminate the oil, which can eventually lead to catastrophic engine failure. The head cracks right in the center between #3 and #4 cylinders. The crack is usually discernible with the valve cover removed as a "milky" tan line. This condition is usually discovered before catastrophic engine failure, but can lead to that if not corrected in a timely manner. The casting was fixed sometime in mid to late 2001, but the same casting number was retained. The "fixed" heads have "TUPY" cast in the center where the cracks used to occur.

AMC Straight-6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
To add to that... I read several times that the fix was to add more Nickel to the composition. And I also read that some heads cracked as early as some 99's. Most of the ones I read about are 2000 and 2001 but that could be misleading and represents a very small sample as its simply a few internet threads of a small group of 3 or 4 members relating their misfortune. I have also read that there were more problems with cracking in WJs and XJs than there were on TJ's. Some relationship to overheating causing the cracking that TJs tend to be less prone to or some such explanations.

Here is an old Poll inclusive of WJ, XJ and TJ's but mind you only about 200 total vehicles... small sample really...

Cracked 0331 cylinder head castings - JeepsUnlimited.com Forums

I hope its OK to link this thread from another forum? If not I apologize. Just for historical reference? I found these sorts of things helpful when I was doing my research to decide what to look for and what years to buy...

Keep in mind that heads can crack... perfectly good and proper heads and outside of this date range from heat. And keep in mind an older manufactured head can make it into the assembly line into the next model year too I would suppose. Plus, some are using manufacture year rather than model year. And the head changed by model year in 99. And its possible any 02 might actually be a 01 model year that is being reported. There is one exception in that thread. One legit 02 build reports a cracked head. And it was an early build as he says he ordered it and took delivery of it in October of 2001. There may be a lag between manufacture and assembly of them as well. Note that the worst ones on this particular poll appear to be 2000. Then second is 2001. A rare 02 and 99 which confuses the matter sometimes and really might be misreported by build year not Model year. But a very large number of them seem to show up is in 2000 year and a lot more of these in XJ's.

Also this head was used from mid 99 through 06. But at some point (and often stated as late 01) they changed to this TUPY casting and that seemed to fix it for the most part.

Also note, at one point someone calculates your chances of having one, even in that bad time period, as less than a half a percent.
I think that might be what's going on with my Jeep. I first noticed low oil pressure. Next, the oil was very milky. Then, my lifters started making noise. Then, I noticed traces of oil in the radiator. I was thinking I might have a blown head gasket. I was going to have my mechanic replace the head gasket and lifters. That would have "only" cost me about $1000. After hearing about the cracked head problem, I'm wondering if I should just order a remanufactured motor. For the record, my jeep has about 130,000 miles and has a build date of June 2001. Is there a way to check for a cracked head?
05-26-2012 11:32 PM
cphilip
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ Knight View Post
Early 0331 heads are prone to cracking and causing coolant to contaminate the oil, which can eventually lead to catastrophic engine failure. The head cracks right in the center between #3 and #4 cylinders. The crack is usually discernible with the valve cover removed as a "milky" tan line. This condition is usually discovered before catastrophic engine failure, but can lead to that if not corrected in a timely manner. The casting was fixed sometime in mid to late 2001, but the same casting number was retained. The "fixed" heads have "TUPY" cast in the center where the cracks used to occur.

AMC Straight-6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To add to that... I read several times that the fix was to add more Nickel to the composition. And I also read that some heads cracked as early as some 99's. Most of the ones I read about are 2000 and 2001 but that could be misleading and represents a very small sample as its simply a few internet threads of a small group of 3 or 4 members relating their misfortune. I have also read that there were more problems with cracking in WJs and XJs than there were on TJ's. Some relationship to overheating causing the cracking that TJs tend to be less prone to or some such explanations.

Here is an old Poll inclusive of WJ, XJ and TJ's but mind you only about 200 total vehicles... small sample really...

Cracked 0331 cylinder head castings - JeepsUnlimited.com Forums

I hope its OK to link this thread from another forum? If not I apologize. Just for historical reference? I found these sorts of things helpful when I was doing my research to decide what to look for and what years to buy...

Keep in mind that heads can crack... perfectly good and proper heads and outside of this date range from heat. And keep in mind an older manufactured head can make it into the assembly line into the next model year too I would suppose. Plus, some are using manufacture year rather than model year. And the head changed by model year in 99. And its possible any 02 might actually be a 01 model year that is being reported. There is one exception in that thread. One legit 02 build reports a cracked head. And it was an early build as he says he ordered it and took delivery of it in October of 2001. There may be a lag between manufacture and assembly of them as well. Note that the worst ones on this particular poll appear to be 2000. Then second is 2001. A rare 02 and 99 which confuses the matter sometimes and really might be misreported by build year not Model year. But a very large number of them seem to show up is in 2000 year and a lot more of these in XJ's.

Also this head was used from mid 99 through 06. But at some point (and often stated as late 01) they changed to this TUPY casting and that seemed to fix it for the most part.

Also note, at one point someone calculates your chances of having one, even in that bad time period, as less than a half a percent.
05-26-2012 11:21 PM
Black98 Love that my 98 does not have 2 mini-cats further heating up my engine bay.
05-26-2012 11:08 PM
cphilip
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC0QR View Post
Not sure exactly what you mean, but a Distributor isn't a Points-and-Condensor. '98 and '99 4.0L have a distributor, and definitely do not have points.
Sorry... was just pointing out that the older systems can be comforting and familiar. Not better of course as you pointed out...
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