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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-18-2013 05:00 PM
DadeCountyJeeper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H

Do what you wish, but I'll bet good money the Black Magic pads on a decent standard (non slotted or drilled) rotor will out perform anyone's ceramic pad, or any other pad. You will not be disappointed.
Actually now that I looked at it, the price is not bad. I will check these out for future purchase but for now I have to make the jeep heavier(front bumper, back bumper, and much more before I can make it stop better) I know backwards but hey brakes are only gonna hold me back right? Lol
02-17-2013 11:20 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
I just removed ceramic pads to install Black Magic pads. The ceramic pads were quiet, clean, and worked better than the Centric semi metallic pads i had on it prior. Neither one are anywhere near the Black Magic pads as far as braking. Not even close.
FWIW, these are the pads I had..
Products Page - Performance Brake Parts - Drilled and Slotted Rotors - Ceramic Brake Pads
The Z16 Evolution ceramics. They were superior to Centric Posi Quiet pads as far as performance, no question.
However, no where close to Black Magic pads.
02-17-2013 11:12 PM
freeskier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes

At the end of the day, a quality slotted rotor will improve braking. The problem is when it does it and how much the overall effect is.

For normal stop and go, you won't see much improvement. For a panic stop you will see improvement as the rotor heats up and begins start shedding heat.

To see full improvement at every use of the brakes, you have to use the brakes pretty much like you are on a track.

I'm currently testing a set on Kat's rig and I'm not a fan. The braking event is no longer linear like it is with a solid face rotor. It starts off with a lower amount of brake torque than you get with solids and then is about equal in the middle and then ramps up higher at the end of the event.

This is the fourth variation of non solid face rotors and so far, it has all been the same.

They are an improvement, I don't believe they are enough of one to justify the additional cost.

There have also been a lot of very cheap combo sets offered out there. I've purchased and tested a bunch of them with testers doing it as a blind test. They assumed I was testing one of my products and reported back that they really didn't recommend I include the stuff in my inventory.

When I do a test with someone other than one of my rigs to verify my results, the tester never knows what I am testing and I go to great pains to disguise the product. When we did the testing for the yellow, green and blue pads, I carefully scuffed the powercoat and painted them with a high heat flat black so the tester did not know what they were getting.
Great info as always.
02-17-2013 10:48 PM
UFOtestpilot
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskier

Slotted rotors don't actually keep anything cooler, in fact your arguably loosing cooling effectiveness because your loosing mass on the rotor. Years ago slotted/drilled rotors were used because out gassing was an issue with pads and the slots would prevent gas build up between the pads and rotor. This isn't really an issue for modern pads on regular vehicles. Even high performance teams don't use them, look at every F1 car, I doubt any use slotted/cross drilled rotors.

Blaine can comment on this, but I'm pretty sure he's tested just many drilled/slotted rotors and has concluded they don't help. If there was something better than the centric rotors he'd be selling it.
Having competed in road race I was compelled to say that this is exactly what I found. Good thermal mass with good venting vanes, a good pad compound and great fluid was perfect. All those "flash" rotors crack, warp, and fail under most racing conditions. The same physics apply regardless of the vehicle, they just don't have the same effect/consequences.
02-17-2013 10:01 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskier View Post
Slotted rotors don't actually keep anything cooler, in fact your arguably loosing cooling effectiveness because your loosing surface area on the rotor. Years ago slotted/drilled rotors were used because out gassing was an issue with pads and the slots would prevent gas build up between the pads and rotor. This isn't really an issue for modern pads on regular vehicles. Even high performance teams don't use them, look at every F1 car, I doubt any use slotted/cross drilled rotors.

Blaine can comment on this, but I'm pretty sure he's tested just many drilled/slotted rotors and has concluded they don't help. If there was something better than the centric rotors he'd be selling it.

At the end of the day, a quality slotted rotor will improve braking. The problem is when it does it and how much the overall effect is.

For normal stop and go, you won't see much improvement. For a panic stop you will see improvement as the rotor heats up and begins start shedding heat.

To see full improvement at every use of the brakes, you have to use the brakes pretty much like you are on a track.

I'm currently testing a set on Kat's rig and I'm not a fan. The braking event is no longer linear like it is with a solid face rotor. It starts off with a lower amount of brake torque than you get with solids and then is about equal in the middle and then ramps up higher at the end of the event.

This is the fourth variation of non solid face rotors and so far, it has all been the same.

They are an improvement, I don't believe they are enough of one to justify the additional cost.



There have also been a lot of very cheap combo sets offered out there. I've purchased and tested a bunch of them with testers doing it as a blind test. They assumed I was testing one of my products and reported back that they really didn't recommend I include the stuff in my inventory.

When I do a test with someone other than one of my rigs to verify my results, the tester never knows what I am testing and I go to great pains to disguise the product. When we did the testing for the yellow, green and blue pads, I carefully scuffed the powercoat and painted them with a high heat flat black so the tester did not know what they were getting.
02-17-2013 09:38 PM
freeskier
Quote:
Originally Posted by DadeCountyJeeper View Post
Call me ignorant but I have a question.

I am running 33s now and I admit I need to improve my braking a bit. Would it be wrong for me to buy slotted rotors and good ceramics pads on say eBay or another website as opposed to the black magic ones?

I say slotted rotors because I think they would help with keeping them cool. Not sure how they would perform off road though???
Slotted rotors don't actually keep anything cooler, in fact your arguably loosing cooling effectiveness because your loosing mass on the rotor. Years ago slotted/drilled rotors were used because out gassing was an issue with pads and the slots would prevent gas build up between the pads and rotor. This isn't really an issue for modern pads on regular vehicles. Even high performance teams don't use them, look at every F1 car, I doubt any use slotted/cross drilled rotors.

Blaine can comment on this, but I'm pretty sure he's tested just many drilled/slotted rotors and has concluded they don't help. If there was something better than the centric rotors he'd be selling it.
02-17-2013 09:05 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overthink View Post
From what I've read, the only benefit ceramic pads have is that they are quieter and metallic brake better stopping performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it's only what I have read.
I just removed ceramic pads to install Black Magic pads. The ceramic pads were quiet, clean, and worked better than the Centric semi metallic pads i had on it prior. Neither one are anywhere near the Black Magic pads as far as braking. Not even close.
02-17-2013 08:55 PM
Clemson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overthink
The Black Magic pads are $125 (cheaper/better than EBC pads). The pads and Centric Premium rotors combo pack is $225 with free shipping. You really can't beat the deal, for what you get.
Jeep TJ, Black Magic Brakes
Really appreciate the info. Sounds like a really nice project with real results.
02-17-2013 08:49 PM
Overthink From what I've read, the only benefit ceramic pads have is that they are quieter and metallic brake better stopping performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it's only what I have read.
02-17-2013 04:49 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by DadeCountyJeeper View Post
Call me ignorant but I have a question.

I am running 33s now and I admit I need to improve my braking a bit. Would it be wrong for me to buy slotted rotors and good ceramics pads on say eBay or another website as opposed to the black magic ones?

I say slotted rotors because I think they would help with keeping them cool. Not sure how they would perform off road though???
Do what you wish, but I'll bet good money the Black Magic pads on a decent standard (non slotted or drilled) rotor will out perform anyone's ceramic pad, or any other pad. You will not be disappointed.
02-17-2013 04:46 PM
DadeCountyJeeper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnybonkel

I AGREE ... IM A REAL NEW COMER TO MECHANIC DIY AND HOPELESS...JUST ENTHUSIASTIC ...I BOUGHT THE BLACK MAGIC PADS AND CENTRIC ROTOR KIT AND JUST FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND 2 HOURS LATER WAS BREAKING THEM IN.

NOW 2 WEEKS LATER I THINK THEY ARE A TERRIFIC IMPROVEMENT...MY RUBI ON 35s BEFOR THIS INSTALL WAS DANGEROUSLY INEFFICIENT AS FAR AS BREAKING. RECOMMEND TO EVERYONE...John.
Call me ignorant but I have a question.

I am running 33s now and I admit I need to improve my braking a bit. Would it be wrong for me to buy slotted rotors and good ceramics pads on say eBay or another website as opposed to the black magic ones?

I say slotted rotors because I think they would help with keeping them cool. Not sure how they would perform off road though???
02-17-2013 04:29 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
THEY ARE A TERRIFIC IMPROVEMENT
That's an understatement.
02-17-2013 03:17 PM
Johnnybonkel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overthink
The Black Magic pads are $125 (cheaper/better than EBC pads). The pads and Centric Premium rotors combo pack is $225 with free shipping. You really can't beat the deal, for what you get.
Jeep TJ, Black Magic Brakes
I AGREE ... IM A REAL NEW COMER TO MECHANIC DIY AND HOPELESS...JUST ENTHUSIASTIC ...I BOUGHT THE BLACK MAGIC PADS AND CENTRIC ROTOR KIT AND JUST FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND 2 HOURS LATER WAS BREAKING THEM IN.

NOW 2 WEEKS LATER I THINK THEY ARE A TERRIFIC IMPROVEMENT...MY RUBI ON 35s BEFOR THIS INSTALL WAS DANGEROUSLY INEFFICIENT AS FAR AS BREAKING. RECOMMEND TO EVERYONE...John.
02-17-2013 02:12 PM
Overthink The Black Magic pads are $125 (cheaper/better than EBC pads). The pads and Centric Premium rotors combo pack is $225 with free shipping. You really can't beat the deal, for what you get.
Jeep TJ, Black Magic Brakes
02-17-2013 01:48 PM
Clemson How much was this project if I could ask and source of pads and rotors. Thanks!!
02-17-2013 12:57 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubicon06Va View Post
I'm not a brake expert, but here is a pic from centric rotor with posi quiet pads install from last summer. Pad is flush against knuckler and caliper body.
Yep, that's how they look when everything is settled in and seated.
02-17-2013 12:56 PM
Rubicon06Va I'm not a brake expert, but here is a pic from centric rotor with posi quiet pads install from last summer. Pad is flush against knuckler and caliper body.
02-17-2013 11:06 AM
mrbat23 Finally got around to looking at my calipers ,had to see it for myself, and you guys are right on the money , everything looks the same as mine. I swear everyday i learn something new about jeeps.
02-16-2013 11:19 PM
Patrick H I always put one or two lug nuts on to hold the rotor flat against the hub when installing pads on a floating rotor brake . Notice in my pic...
02-16-2013 10:54 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbat23 View Post
Man i hope i am wrong, but that still looks wrong to me, can someone explain why those top tabs on brake pads are not locked into that top bracket??
The rotation of the rotor swings them in against the slider on the knuckle when the brakes are applied. They only have to be in close proximity with the wheel bolted on to be correct.

What typically happens is the rotor sags on the wheel studs and pilot and tips the caliper on the guide sleeves which throws the pads out of alignment until the wheel is bolted up.

The inner pad only locates in the piston off the spring clips and it is easy to rotate a bit off kilter which throws the whole mess off.

The only way to check it is by bolting the rotor up solid and then smacking the caliper around by hand to knock everything into place. If that doesn't work, then start looking for a problem.

I can tell you that upside down pads with divots in the sliders generates very unexpected phone conversations.
02-16-2013 10:33 PM
Johnnybonkel A. Broke em in as instructed and thy are a massive improvement!
02-16-2013 09:36 PM
Patrick H Sorry for the sideways pic, but here's mine. I installed these Thursday.

02-16-2013 09:34 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbat23 View Post
Man i hope i am wrong, but that still looks wrong to me, can someone explain why those top tabs on brake pads are not locked into that top bracket??
The top tabs on the brake pads don't lock into anything. They just rest against the upper guide rail.
02-16-2013 09:31 PM
mrbat23 Man i hope i am wrong, but that still looks wrong to me, can someone explain why those top tabs on brake pads are not locked into that top bracket??
02-16-2013 07:59 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overthink View Post
Everything went fine in the phase 2 break in procedure. No pulling, shimmy, groans or grinds. Now have to pick everything up out of the floorboard, that slid off of the seats.
BTDT. If they aren't absolutely phenomenal yet, be aware, it will happen quite quickly.
02-16-2013 07:57 PM
Overthink Everything went fine in the phase 2 break in procedure. No pulling, shimmy, groans or grinds. Now have to pick everything up out of the floorboard, that slid off of the seats.
02-16-2013 07:44 PM
mrbat23 ok thanks , it just looked wrong to me, but i have only done saturns and some other gm cars. but it still looks wrong to me
02-16-2013 07:42 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overthink View Post
Thanks for the help. I'm going to go ahead with the final break in phase, since they look ok to everyone.
Don't bang yer head on the windshield...
02-16-2013 07:40 PM
Overthink Thanks for the help. I'm going to go ahead with the final break in phase, since they look ok to everyone.
02-16-2013 07:37 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbat23 View Post
I guess I'm wrong , but from that top pic it looks like caliper and pads need to be pushed in to lock behind that top bracket.
They don't "lock into" anything on the top side. The caliper just floats on the two caliper bolt sliders.
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