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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-16-2013 03:55 PM
MPjeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post

What kind of numbers does that put out to the wheels (& what size tire you running)?
I'm running 35" with 4:10 gears. Here is my last RW dyno run. I originally had it running about 295hp and 380 torque. It worked great in the dunes but was a little too hyper on the trails. I've been running this 10 psi boost setting for about 6 months, seems to be just about right.
04-16-2013 03:33 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPjeep View Post
I agree with you, I wanted more power so I installed a supercharger. Adding a K&N on your jeep will not improve fuel mileage or power. I didn't want to start a filter argument, I'm not a K&N salesman. I think it must have a lot to do with your climate, because here in the pacific Nw it is a very popular filter on Atv and off road vehicles. They do a very good job of keeping sand out. I know a bunch of loggers who run them on their crummies and work trucks and have had no issues, well into the 300,000 mile range on diesels. They do require maintenance, sometimes more than at oil change intervals. Just like all products, people have different experiences with how they are used. Ok....... Just so nobody else gets defensive ...... K&N sucks, Rough Country sucks, Smittybilt sucks. Lol, now we can get along

What kind of numbers does that put out to the wheels (& what size tire you running)?
04-16-2013 03:02 PM
MPjeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post

I second everything said above. I would NEVER run one in a dust filled environment. Furthermore, what do you hope to gain from using one while driving a trail? If you want more HP and Torque, get a supercharger, and for god sakes, get a better cone filter than K&N and let the supercharger do its job. Tap out the dust after rides and change filter with oil change/every other depending on how dirty it gets. If you want more airflow (not useful for a jeep, IMO), get a high flow intake that utilizes (1) a greater surface area AND (2) has an inlet at the front to force air into the box.

I run the stock box on my Jeep, I don't see any reason to switch as it's a great design for the vehicle's intended use.
I agree with you, I wanted more power so I installed a supercharger. Adding a K&N on your jeep will not improve fuel mileage or power. I didn't want to start a filter argument, I'm not a K&N salesman. I think it must have a lot to do with your climate, because here in the pacific Nw it is a very popular filter on Atv and off road vehicles. They do a very good job of keeping sand out. I know a bunch of loggers who run them on their crummies and work trucks and have had no issues, well into the 300,000 mile range on diesels. They do require maintenance, sometimes more than at oil change intervals. Just like all products, people have different experiences with how they are used. Ok....... Just so nobody else gets defensive ...... K&N sucks, Rough Country sucks, Smittybilt sucks. Lol, now we can get along
04-16-2013 02:04 PM
Atthehop Marketing is what sells, I am down to my last share of the Brooklyn Bridge. As soon as it sells I can start adding the toll booths. LOL.
04-16-2013 01:53 PM
Dextreme K&N is well known to work fine for sand dunes with an Outerfilter, but the volcanic dust is so fine in Central Oregon that I would not trust it over there.
04-16-2013 01:37 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
K&N is of course a master at spin. Having seen non-K&N sponsored lab tests run according to ISO 5011 laboratory standards, K&N's air filter (which came in dead-last in the tests) would be the LAST filter I would run. I will also say that having personally seen the grime inside my TJ's air intake system (air tube and throttle body) after naively running K&N's air filter for a year before knowing better, that is the main reason I will NEVER run another K&N air filter again.

K&Ns are fine on the street but in dusty off-road conditions, it is my strongest possible personal opinion that based on my personal experiences, a K&N would be the LAST filter I would choose to ever run again. Before I was able to switch away from the K&N, I ended up having to add two pre-filters over the top of my K&N to stop the grime from forming inside my TJ's air intake system.

The below is a photo of my previous (now discarded) K&N air filter with the two prefilters I added pulled back so they can be seen. Yes my K&N had been properly maintained using K&N's cleaning & oiling kit when I discovered the grime it had been passing.

I second everything said above. I would NEVER run one in a dust filled environment. Furthermore, what do you hope to gain from using one while driving a trail? If you want more HP and Torque, get a supercharger, and for god sakes, get a better cone filter than K&N and let the supercharger do its job. Tap out the dust after rides and change filter with oil change/every other depending on how dirty it gets. If you want more airflow (not useful for a jeep, IMO), get a high flow intake that utilizes (1) a greater surface area AND (2) has an inlet at the front to force air into the box.

I run the stock box on my Jeep, I don't see any reason to switch as it's a great design for the vehicle's intended use.
04-16-2013 01:24 PM
Shark_13 They have a great marketing dept.....sort of like Bose for the audio world.....
04-16-2013 12:57 PM
Jerry Bransford K&N is of course a master at spin. Having seen non-K&N sponsored lab tests run according to ISO 5011 laboratory standards, K&N's air filter (which came in dead-last in the tests) would be the LAST filter I would run. I will also say that having personally seen the grime inside my TJ's air intake system (air tube and throttle body) after naively running K&N's air filter for a year before knowing better, that is the main reason I will NEVER run another K&N air filter again.

K&Ns are fine on the street but in dusty off-road conditions, it is my strongest possible personal opinion that based on my personal experiences, a K&N would be the LAST filter I would choose to ever run again. Before I was able to switch away from the K&N, I ended up having to add two pre-filters over the top of my K&N to stop the grime from forming inside my TJ's air intake system.

The below is a photo of my previous (now discarded) K&N air filter with the two prefilters I added pulled back so they can be seen. Yes my K&N had been properly maintained using K&N's cleaning & oiling kit when I discovered the grime it had been passing.
04-16-2013 12:26 PM
MPjeep
K&N Filters Fact Vs Fiction

I'm probably going to regret posting this, but I think it is a pretty honest answer from K&N on their filter performance in regards to removing debri. I have used K&N filters for years, mainly because during the summer where I live and wheel (Oregon,TSF) it is extremly dusty, and I would be replacing a filter every weekend, and also certain performance mods require a change from the stock air box. Anyways, here is K&N's answer for what its worth.

21. What is the micron rating and efficiency of a K&N air filter?

Air filters are not measured by micron size. As an industry standard, air filters are tested in accordance with the ISO 5011 test protocol to measure capacity (the physical amount of dust a filter can hold before cleaning is necessary) and efficiency (the filter's ability to trap and hold dust). See technical service bulletin 89-5R from the Filter Manufacturer's Council. The dust selected for the test contains a specified distribution of different particle sizes according to ISO standards. The content of the two most commonly used types of ISO test dust for air filters is as follows:

ISO COARSE TEST DUSTISO FINE TEST DUSTParticle Size in Micrometers (Microns)
Percent by Volume (+/- 3%)
Particle Size in Micrometers (Microns)
Percent by Volume (+/- 3%)
001 - 005
10.5%
01 - 05
36.0%
005 - 010
11.5%
05 - 10
18.0%
010 - 020
14.0%
10 - 20
20.0%
020 - 040
25.0%
20 - 40
17.0%
040 - 120
37.0%
40 - 120
09.0%
120 - 180
02.0%



Our testing has demonstrated that on average, K&N replacement air filters and air intake systems have a cumulative or Full Life filtration efficiency of between 96 and 99%. Different filters test at different efficiencies due to changes in their shape, surface area and relationship to the direction of air flow through the factory air box or test housing. Like most air filters available in the USA, our filters will provide all the engine protection you need.
For more information on our testing, see our K&N Product Testing page.

22. What are the air filtration requirements for my vehicle?

There is no published requirement for vehicle filtration. Car and truck owner's manuals are silent on the issue and you will find very few companies that even credibly discuss filtration efficiency. We believe this demonstrates that most air filters sold today provide adequate levels of filtration. Particularly when compared with the filtration provided by fuel and oil filters.
23. Some air filter companies tout their high filtration levels in the 99th percentile. Doesn't higher filtration mean a better air filter?

No. The quality of an air filter can only be judged by reviewing all four important characteristics. 1) Restriction while loading with dust; 2) Filtration efficiency as a percentage; 3) Dust holding capacity before the filter needs cleaning or replacement ; and 4) filter life. Any company designing an air filter must make choices about these four characteristics and how their filter will perform in each area. Generally speaking, each characteristic of an air filter has an inverse relationship to at least one of the others, meaning, as filtration efficiency goes up, restriction increases and capacity or service life decreases. So an air filter manufacturer can design an air filter to have ultra high filtration efficiency by compromising the filters restriction, capacity, and/or service life. We judge the quality of an air filter based upon the proper balance of these four essential criteria. Maximizing one at the expense of others sounds more like a marketing goal rather than an engineering goal. So the basic answer to the original question is that higher filtration is not necessarily a good thing when it comes at the expense of restriction, reusability and/or capacity. While the benefits of a filter with 99.9% filtration are unknown, the benefits of low restriction are measurable and clear. Low restriction helps an engine perform more efficiently generating more power and torque.

That would lead a reasonable person to ask what then is a safe level of filtration. This question is literally unanswered. Minimum air filter specifications are generally not called out in vehicle owners' manuals, nor will you find much published information on air filtration requirements from vehicle manufacturers. We have never seen a scientific study concluding what levels of filtration efficiency correspond to various levels of engine wear. Some large air filter companies do not even publish information on the efficiencies of the air filters they manufacture. It is K&N's opinion that both the Fine and Coarse Test Dust mixtures used in air filter testing contain such a high concentration of small particles that even filtration efficiency numbers as low as 90% may provide adequate engine protection. Remember that almost 11% of COARSE test dust is smaller than 5.5 microns (the size of a red blood cell). For a detailed explanation of our testing protocol, click here.

The fact is that an engine is not a pristine environment. Fuel enters after passing through a fuel filter, combines with air which is ignited to explode in a pressurized chamber. The combustion is not 100% efficient and leaves residues behind that must be flushed from the engine. Engines have tolerances or measured gaps between surface areas. While there are few if any studies on engine wear, it would seem reasonable to speculate that particles less than 5.5 microns create little engine wear unless ingested at very high levels of concentration. As support for this theory, consider the filtration levels provided by fuel filters and oil filters that sometimes tout their ability to filter particles above 10 or 20 microns.

If you really want to compare two air filters, you need to know all four characteristics mentioned above. Consumers can then choose what matters most to them. But comparing two air filters with only one piece of information is like saying a bicycle is better than a car based solely on a comparison of mileage. Yes the mileage is better, but a car has a few other benefits (speed, comfort, keeps you dry in wet weather) that just may offset the mileage disadvantage.

We design air filters to provide low restriction throughout the filter's service interval. We seek the best balance between airflow and filtration recognizing they are inversely related. After nearly 40 years in business with millions of air filters sold, we have a track record you can trust and the experience that can only be earned through years of focusing on just one thing. But even our experience is not enough. We operate a fully staffed air filtration lab that operates on a year round basis with two test stands. The lab was designed by Southwest Research and is calibrated regularly to ensure our test results are reliable. This testing is an essential ingredient in verifying our air filters meet our own high standards of excellence. Making a great air filter is no accident and we are confident our air filters provide outstanding engine protection with huge air flow advantages throughout the air filter's service interval. That's why we back up our replacement air filters with both a Million Mile Warranty and our Consumer Protection Pledge.

K&N's air filtration lab tests air filters according to ISO5011 test protocol. The ISO (International Organization for Standardization) is an international organization which establishes standards used by different industries worldwide. The ISO does not establish any standards for an air filter's effectiveness; they establish standards for the testing procedures used to find air filters' capacities and efficiencies only under the fixed and chosen parameters of the test being conducted. In the case of engine air filters, the ISO5011 test ensures consistency in the procedure used to test a filter's initial restriction, initial efficiency, cumulative (full-life) efficiency, and dust holding capacity. Using a standardized test procedure and disclosing the user selected variables ensures the same test can be run anywhere around the world. Some of the requirements of the ISO5011 test procedure are that the temperature of the test lab must be maintained at 23 degrees Celsius +/- 5 degrees Celsius, and the relative humidity of the test lab must be maintained at 55% +/- 15%, for the entire duration of the test. During the test at each weighing stage (when the mass of the filter is found) the humidity can only vary +/- 2%. Also, all test dust which is fed into the air filter must be "found" after the test is completed. That means if 10 grams of test dust is fed to the filter during the test, but only 8 grams of dust is found trapped in the filter after the test, part of the ISO5011 test procedure requires that the remaining 2 grams of dust must be found. The dust could be in the air filter housing, the air duct, or the absolute filter which traps any dust that passes through the air filter, but wherever it is it must be accounted for. If any of the requirements of the ISO test procedure are not met, the test is not valid. A company's participation in testing using ISO5011 test procedures is strictly voluntary. Conducting an ISO5011 test requires a considerable investment in both time and equipment, and many air filter companies simply do not have the resources to complete an ISO test in-house. K&N views this test procedure as a valuable part of our research and development process.

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