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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-26-2013 06:09 PM
lindel
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
Sure, but the factory doesn't do that.

No, they build to tighter specs. They also use machines for the most part. That allows for more consistent builds, more consistent tolerances.

We Build a Pentastar V-6 to Learn More About Chrysler’s New Engine | Car and Driver Blog

Not much of a peek into it, but the best I have found so far.
04-26-2013 04:33 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFsoftball22 View Post
I dont see someone buying your used 4.0L for 2K when the MSRP on a brand new one is $3500. And we are forgetting one of the main things. Bolt on Performance vs. an Engine Swap. You can sit there and say all day that it is 4-5K for the stroker but what about the R&R time & Transfer of parts. All the labor time needed to swap the engine. For a person who does not have the know how to do it them selves this can get very costly. I would agree there are certain situations that might suit a stroker better but one of the main factors is do you want to fork out the money and time to swap out a good engine, when you have bolt on HP available to you?

Personally I hope it shoots the rod through the hood. That would be cool. LOL

I wish that happened. I have two cars, so I don't really consider car down time as a factor. Just cost, and the discrepancy isn't large enough to turn me away from what I think is a more mechanically sound option. Don't let me stop you from turboing the shit out of your jeep though.
04-26-2013 04:27 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindel View Post
That's standard work by any reputable shop. Nothing fancy about that.

Sure, but the factory doesn't do that.
04-26-2013 03:41 PM
MFsoftball22 I dont see someone buying your used 4.0L for 2K when the MSRP on a brand new one is $3500. And we are forgetting one of the main things. Bolt on Performance vs. an Engine Swap. You can sit there and say all day that it is 4-5K for the stroker but what about the R&R time & Transfer of parts. All the labor time needed to swap the engine. For a person who does not have the know how to do it them selves this can get very costly. I would agree there are certain situations that might suit a stroker better but one of the main factors is do you want to fork out the money and time to swap out a good engine, when you have bolt on HP available to you?

Personally I hope it shoots the rod through the hood. That would be cool. LOL
04-26-2013 03:39 PM
lindel That's standard work by any reputable shop. Nothing fancy about that.
04-26-2013 03:29 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindel View Post
Who in their right mind, would buy a used 4.0 for 2 grand? You can get a reman long block for cheaper than that.

All that machining that you're talking about will jack up the price of the engine by an factor of at least 2 to 3. Again, the stock engine is fine for mild boost. For most daily driving/off-roading, the Banks system would absolutely fine.

The turbine and housing can be sized so that there's virtually no lag, and the effects of the turbo can be felt at takeoff. An intercooler will almost always give benefits, the issue comes from where to put it so that it gets good airflow, but no damage.
All that machining is done to create the stroker, so no, there's no added cost there.

"Golen likes to shoot for a 0.040-inch quench height for more power and to prevent pinging and knocking. After a thorough cleaning, the inspected 4.0L block is decked to achieve a zero deck height for use with the Fel-Pro head gasket's 0.040-inch compressed thickness and to leave a mirror finish for head-gasket sealing. In our case, 0.020 inch was removed to achieve the proper quench before the boring process began."

"The block is then fitted with a torque plate (not shown) and bored close to 0.030-inch overbore on Golen's Sunnen CV-616 machine. Once the Speed-Pro hypereutectic pistons are measured, the block is finish-honed to take the bores out a full 0.030 over and match any minute variations in piston diameter. Golen's honing is so precise there's less than 0.0001 inch of taper from the top of the cylinder wall to the bottom."

All that machining in a 4k engine, for a jeep! They're not fing around.
04-26-2013 03:21 PM
lindel Who in their right mind, would buy a used 4.0 for 2 grand? You can get a reman long block for cheaper than that.

All that machining that you're talking about will jack up the price of the engine by an factor of at least 2 to 3. Again, the stock engine is fine for mild boost. For most daily driving/off-roading, the Banks system would absolutely fine.

The turbine and housing can be sized so that there's virtually no lag, and the effects of the turbo can be felt at takeoff. An intercooler will almost always give benefits, the issue comes from where to put it so that it gets good airflow, but no damage.
04-26-2013 03:01 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
Doesn't the 4.0 already have forged rods and pistons? 8.5 compression is built for boost! Sure a built stroker is better with a turbo than a stock engine with a turbo, but it puts this into a different class. Spending $7-10K is different than <$3K. At that point why not put a hemi in there and add boost to that and have double the hp of the boosted stroker? I might do a turbo because its easy and cheap. If I was going to do an engine swap it would be a hemi, or the pentastar, complete with the new ecu so that I could have an electronic throttle.
It's not 7-10k. It's 4k for the motor plus ??? shipping, say 1-2k for that other crap... so 5-7k, but you can surely sell your existing engine for 2k.

With respect to the rods, etc, the construction differs to meet the demands required of them. An aftermarket and OEM rod may both be forged, but the weight and strength may differ substantially due to the design. Same thing for the pistons, which may be coated, etc. Also, one thing you have to consider is that with a custom engine, all these parts (should be) machined to perfection and thus have VERY tight tolerances which pays huge dividends when it come to FI. The stock engine, as good as it is, not so much.
04-26-2013 02:30 PM
KaiserJeep Whether you choose stroker or turbo really depends upon your application.

The benefits of the stroker start at engine idle speed and are definately present below 1000RPM. If you are rock crawling and not doing much else, a stroker would be the way to go on most Wranglers. (Note that the basic behavior depends a lot on the cam you choose - and a stroker motor that is built to pass California emissions cannot deviate very much from the stock cam profile.) Of course, if you have a Rubicon model or aftermarket transfer case with 4:1 or even lower low range, you really don't need any more low end torque, the stock 4.0L torque when multipled by the 4:1 gearing is fine for 99% of the rigs we drive.

But the higher displacement stroker motor will still suffer from the same sort of power loss at high altitudes. Once you get above 6500 feet, the power starts rolling off noticeably, unless you spend the bucks on aftermarket cold air intake, free flow exhaust, and a bored-out throttle body, in which case it rolls off slower. But if you do that, even if you built the stroker yourself, the whole investment is MORE than the turbo kit.

The turbo kit's benefits are pretty much all at higher RPMs and higher altitudes. In spite of the Banks blurb about 1600RPM benefits, if you are revving like that it's not really "crawling". The Banks kit includes a wastegate that will ensure that you get no loss of power at altitude. For those of us with Rubicon models, it's a better choice. In fact for anybody towing at high altitude, it's a better choice.

Even though Banks would love to sell you a cold air intake and free flow exhaust, on an overboosted turbo with a wastegate, the benefits are minimal.

My problem is simple. I have previously gotten excited about Banks press releases in 2007 and 2010, but there still is no turbo kit for the 1999.5 to 2004 model years, although they keep promising one.

The problem is the PCM in those years. It does not accept any aftermarket programmer, nor is the ROM in a socket where it can be replaced. To bring a turbo kit to market for 1999.5-2004, you have to replace the PCM, which is an emissions listed part. Replacing the PCM means supporting all the stock transmissions for each model year, then making sure you don't mess up other things like the subroutines for alternator management and battery temperature monitoring. Of course, you have to account for all the various changes in wiring and sensors. Then you have to support the NINE different engine operating modes, some of which must behave differently when the system is running Open Loop or Closed Loop. Finally when you replace that PCM, your version must have an EO number - and as somebody already noted, they are not yet available for the 2005/2006 models.

I'm willing to believe that Banks can do all of the above. Where I start to have my doubts is when you ask me to believe that they can conquer the mountain of paperwork needed to sell an emissions-legal turbo kit, particularly in California. Nor is it their fault - the State of California and the Feds are not very efficient at processing the paperwork. Banks probably has kits designed that he can't sell because of the paperwork.
04-26-2013 01:16 PM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
A good stroker is going to be perfectly decked, bored while under torque, better pistons, better rods, better rings, new cam shaft bearings, etc., which in itself is a much better platform for FI than the stock engine. Thus, I don't see why you wouldn't start there and sell your current motor for a healthy return before you throw a rod through it. So sue me
Doesn't the 4.0 already have forged rods and pistons? 8.5 compression is built for boost! Sure a built stroker is better with a turbo than a stock engine with a turbo, but it puts this into a different class. Spending $7-10K is different than <$3K. At that point why not put a hemi in there and add boost to that and have double the hp of the boosted stroker? I might do a turbo because its easy and cheap. If I was going to do an engine swap it would be a hemi, or the pentastar, complete with the new ecu so that I could have an electronic throttle.
04-26-2013 12:26 PM
bondosgto Why not get a striker that is built for boost?
04-26-2013 11:06 AM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFsoftball22 View Post
I would have to agree. My thoughts are why replace a good motor with a stroker just to get more HP and Torque when I can bolt on a turbo. I want a Stroker in my Jeep but ill wait until my current engine craps out on me. Why fix something that is not broke. but when it does break build it stronger.
A good stroker is going to be perfectly decked, bored while under torque, better pistons, better rods, better rings, new cam shaft bearings, etc., which in itself is a much better platform for FI than the stock engine. Thus, I don't see why you wouldn't start there and sell your current motor for a healthy return before you throw a rod through it. So sue me
04-26-2013 08:22 AM
MFsoftball22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindel View Post
I'd take the turbo over the stroker in a heartbeat. The main reason why is because the turbo kit from Banks is complete. ALL the necessary goodies come with it. Not the case with the stroker. You'd still need to buy the bigger injectors.

In fact, if you buy the turbo now, then get the stroker later, you'll still have to bump up the injectors.

I also wouldn't have any heartburn with putting the turbo on my current engine, even with 110K+ miles on it. The only thing holding me back would be the $3000 price tag. Even if I had that much to play with, I've got to replace the engine in the wife's Waggie first.
I would have to agree. My thoughts are why replace a good motor with a stroker just to get more HP and Torque when I can bolt on a turbo. I want a Stroker in my Jeep but ill wait until my current engine craps out on me. Why fix something that is not broke. but when it does break build it stronger.
04-25-2013 05:00 PM
lindel I'd take the turbo over the stroker in a heartbeat. The main reason why is because the turbo kit from Banks is complete. ALL the necessary goodies come with it. Not the case with the stroker. You'd still need to buy the bigger injectors.

In fact, if you buy the turbo now, then get the stroker later, you'll still have to bump up the injectors.

I also wouldn't have any heartburn with putting the turbo on my current engine, even with 110K+ miles on it. The only thing holding me back would be the $3000 price tag. Even if I had that much to play with, I've got to replace the engine in the wife's Waggie first.
04-25-2013 04:19 PM
OhSixTJ Hmmm
04-25-2013 03:13 PM
MFsoftball22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
I dont understand how someone can claim that a 46% gain in hp is "weak". Remember this is only 6 psi and with an IC you could bump it to 9. If you follow "blower math" then 6 psi should give you 195hp (the kit does a bit better!) and then you go to 9 psi it should bring you to 223hp for a 84 hp gain and a 60% increase in hp. Personally, I wouldn't run any boost on anything without an intercooler (well, except my diesel rv and I'm working on a solution for that)
X2 that is the only thing that I would have to say is the current downfall to the kit. But if you read the article from JP Magazine it states that they are currently in the process of developing a intercooler for the system. It looks like a good product from a very reputable company.
04-25-2013 03:08 PM
beaureed445 In the words of my old motorcycle tuner...."It's cubic dollars."
04-25-2013 02:59 PM
jgorm I dont understand how someone can claim that a 46% gain in hp is "weak". Remember this is only 6 psi and with an IC you could bump it to 9. If you follow "blower math" then 6 psi should give you 195hp (the kit does a bit better!) and then you go to 9 psi it should bring you to 223hp for a 84 hp gain and a 60% increase in hp. Personally, I wouldn't run any boost on anything without an intercooler (well, except my diesel rv and I'm working on a solution for that)
04-25-2013 02:38 PM
MFsoftball22
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
It's not much less money. 4-5k for new engine, sell the old one for 2k, you're looking at the same/similar price. Aside from time and complicity, I'd rather swap for a built engine with larger displacement than go FI. Personal preference. Also, if you wanted more HP later, you could go FI on the built engine, which makes more sense to me.
I would agree on with what you are saying and like i said in another one of my posts I want to do a Stroker down the road too. I want to do the 4.6L Stroker kit. But something that you are forgetting is that you also have to purchase upgraded fuel system components and if you are unable to do the swap your self you are looking at 9.5+ hours of labor time in a shop. @ $90/hr that would make it $855.00 in labor time. and with this set up you would be making a little more HP and torque. Trust me i want a Turbo'ed Stroker and maybe someday down the road i will. But I think that for Pros far outweigh the Cons with the system so far. Dont know anyone running it so that would be the next piece of the puzzle.

The only thing i really disagreed with is the "weak power gains" I would have to say they were pretty substantial for bolt on. Especially when we talk about boosting engine performance. IT IS ALWAYS COSTLY!
04-25-2013 02:19 PM
beaureed445 I'd love to see a side-by-side test done of the various turbos- Banks/ Sprintex/ etc. Same Jeep, same dyno, same tuner, same conditions. I've thought about stroking or 'charging my TJ (it's only got 53k miles). I'm new to the I6 world; I've been playing with Harley motors for the past 10 years. I
04-25-2013 02:05 PM
n00g7
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFsoftball22 View Post
I really dont know how you justify saying that the "gains seem pretty weak". Compairing an engine swap to bolt on turbo system doesnt seem like a fair compairson. In that cause i might as well drop in my buddy's Late Model racing motor pumping out 842HP. Should we compair that to the Stroker?

Take the numbers for what they are "which we know are always exagerated a little bit" but for a bolt on system to gain 66HP and 84lb-ft of torque at the "REAR WHEELS". I would have to say that is pretty good. 201Hp and 250lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels pretty good for a bolt on product for a TJ Wrangler.

5.0 I6 Stroker is rated at 344HP and 384lb-ft of torque at the "crank". Again taking the numbers for what they are "slightly skewed" If the rear wheel HP & lb-ft of torque is roughly 75% of that at the Crank then that means that this Stroker is 258HP & 288lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels.

(numbers are just an est)

So for less money, time, complexity, and hassle you can get substantial HP and Torque Gains. Seems like a good product to me! I hope it performs as well or close to as well as they say. I also hope more companies out there start to develop similar kits. Always like seeing new mods for TJ's especially from a company like "Banks"
It's not much less money. 4-5k for new engine, sell the old one for 2k, you're looking at the same/similar price. Aside from time and complicity, I'd rather swap for a built engine with larger displacement than go FI. Personal preference. Also, if you wanted more HP later, you could go FI on the built engine, which makes more sense to me.
04-25-2013 01:48 PM
MFsoftball22
Quote:
Originally Posted by marrk_us View Post
I'm really shocked no one has jumped in saying they'd buy the "complete tj turbo system" off ebay for $1000 or $1500, and that you're just paying for the Banks name. The same ones who pay $99 for a header that's "just as good" as a Banks header (ignoring the lifetime wty). They probably also spent $150 for "real HID headlights" from China. Or how about the argument that the turbo would get better mpg than a stroker if you kept you foot off the gas. Just who would install a turbo or a stroker and be able to keep their foot out of it because it hurts their mpg?? And if you spend the money for either one you're probably not worried about gas money. I'm waiting they'll show up soon
I like gas and oil in my engine not parts of my Turbo!
04-25-2013 01:46 PM
MFsoftball22
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhSixTJ View Post
I think the standard figure for driveline loss is 15%. So you'd get 85% of those striker numbers at the wheel.

I'm interested in this. How does the cost compare to this 5.0 striker you speak of? Is it almost the same as someone higher up in this thread stated?
What I could find it looks like the stroker that i was talking about 5.0L is $4,000 for the kit or $6,500 for the Stroker Long Block. plus upgraded fuel components. This is not the most popular of the stroker kits. the 4.6L stroker kit runs $1,900.00 w/ rods or $4,700.00 for the stroker long block again plus upgraded fuel system components. Also the time and know how to do an engine swap.

I like the idea of a 4.6L Stroker when my engine goes, as i have plenty of people with the know how to help me. But the $3,000 to get a bolt on boost in HP and torque sounds like the way to go for a good running 4.0L

Hell if it ends up blowing my engine then it looks like I get my Stroker
04-25-2013 01:37 PM
marrk_us I'm really shocked no one has jumped in saying they'd buy the "complete tj turbo system" off ebay for $1000 or $1500, and that you're just paying for the Banks name. The same ones who pay $99 for a header that's "just as good" as a Banks header (ignoring the lifetime wty). They probably also spent $150 for "real HID headlights" from China. Or how about the argument that the turbo would get better mpg than a stroker if you kept you foot off the gas. Just who would install a turbo or a stroker and be able to keep their foot out of it because it hurts their mpg?? And if you spend the money for either one you're probably not worried about gas money. I'm waiting they'll show up soon
04-25-2013 01:19 PM
OhSixTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFsoftball22 View Post

I really dont know how you justify saying that the "gains seem pretty weak". Compairing an engine swap to bolt on turbo system doesnt seem like a fair compairson. In that cause i might as well drop in my buddy's Late Model racing motor pumping out 842HP. Should we compair that to the Stroker?

Take the numbers for what they are "which we know are always exagerated a little bit" but for a bolt on system to gain 66HP and 84lb-ft of torque at the "REAR WHEELS". I would have to say that is pretty good. 201Hp and 250lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels pretty good for a bolt on product for a TJ Wrangler.

5.0 I6 Stroker is rated at 344HP and 384lb-ft of torque at the "crank". Again taking the numbers for what they are "slightly skewed" If the rear wheel HP & lb-ft of torque is roughly 75% of that at the Crank then that means that this Stroker is 258HP & 288lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels.

(numbers are just an est)

So for less money, time, complexity, and hassle you can get substantial HP and Torque Gains. Seems like a good product to me! I hope it performs as well or close to as well as they say. I also hope more companies out there start to develop similar kits. Always like seeing new mods for TJ's especially from a company like "Banks"
I think the standard figure for driveline loss is 15%. So you'd get 85% of those striker numbers at the wheel.

I'm interested in this. How does the cost compare to this 5.0 striker you speak of? Is it almost the same as someone higher up in this thread stated?
04-25-2013 01:10 PM
MFsoftball22
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
Gains seem pretty weak. I'd go with the stroker, personally.
I really dont know how you justify saying that the "gains seem pretty weak". Compairing an engine swap to bolt on turbo system doesnt seem like a fair compairson. In that cause i might as well drop in my buddy's Late Model racing motor pumping out 842HP. Should we compair that to the Stroker?

Take the numbers for what they are "which we know are always exagerated a little bit" but for a bolt on system to gain 66HP and 84lb-ft of torque at the "REAR WHEELS". I would have to say that is pretty good. 201Hp and 250lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels pretty good for a bolt on product for a TJ Wrangler.

5.0 I6 Stroker is rated at 344HP and 384lb-ft of torque at the "crank". Again taking the numbers for what they are "slightly skewed" If the rear wheel HP & lb-ft of torque is roughly 75% of that at the Crank then that means that this Stroker is 258HP & 288lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels.

(numbers are just an est)

So for less money, time, complexity, and hassle you can get substantial HP and Torque Gains. Seems like a good product to me! I hope it performs as well or close to as well as they say. I also hope more companies out there start to develop similar kits. Always like seeing new mods for TJ's especially from a company like "Banks"
04-25-2013 12:20 PM
n00g7 Gains seem pretty weak. I'd go with the stroker, personally.
04-25-2013 10:12 AM
MFsoftball22 I thought it looked like a pretty good deal for "bolt on" HP. To get HP and TQ gains without doing a stroker engine swap or the fabrication for a V8 swap sounds pretty nice. It sounds like it would add some pep for people not looking to do engine swaps and on top of that you know everyone loves the sound of a whistling turbo. It has a way of turning heads.
04-25-2013 09:34 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindel View Post
TJ's have all had fuel injection, that's not the issue. The 4.0's bottom end is plenty stout enough for a turbo and breaking a piston is not likely due to the relatively low boost that the Banks kit produces.
add in the boost friendly low 8.5 compression and it seems like it was built for boost!
04-25-2013 08:41 AM
lindel
Quote:
Way to talk out of both sides of your mouth, if you would have read the articles on it you would have been better informed.
IF your jeep has over 100k i would do a compression test and leak down test to find any issues that might come up. The only issues that might pop up is breaking a ring land (typical of oem cast pistons), cats disenagrating, and rod bolts stretching. The 4.0 is not best canidate for FI, due to the cast head, this can be over come by a Hesco head. Sorry if I come across as a a$$, but ive been around turbos and superchargers for the better part of a decade, I have a good idea of what works and doesnt, the jeep I6 is a good canidate for FI, low compression, straight 6 makes it pretty damn tough.
TJ's have all had fuel injection, that's not the issue. The 4.0's bottom end is plenty stout enough for a turbo and breaking a piston is not likely due to the relatively low boost that the Banks kit produces.
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