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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-19-2013 11:00 PM
DC Dennis
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
Sure,

Because the (JK) Rubi comes with standard lockers, and with the type of locker the JK uses, you can't have both in the pumpkin ( that is why LSD isn't even an option). TJ Rubi's came with the best of both worlds (in the rear)...they had a differential that was limited slip when it wasn't selectively locked....sweet.

If you are buying a Rubi, you are probably doing some serious off-roading/crawling, so lockers (and the 4:1 transfer case) are more important than LSD.

In terms of hard-core off-roading/crawling, Lockers > LSD > Open diff.

I wish Jeep gave you the option to buy ala carte. I would have LSD in the rear (daily driving, snow/ice/rain), and a selectable locker up front (in case I even found myself off the beaten path).
they screwed us when they dropped the LDS/Lockers from the TJ Rubicon. I would still take the lockers over just LSDs though
06-19-2013 06:13 PM
LoCo Jeep Thanks for the info. I didn't even realize Rubi's didn't have LSD until panthermark mentioned something about it in post #57.
06-19-2013 06:09 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
Hmmm.....I would guess so but with BLD the poor Rubi can probably manage to get through the snow.
Of course it will manage, but in all honesty....outside of blizzard conditions where you are getting burried in 2 feet of snow, a Sport/Sahara with LSD and tires with sipes will do better on slick roads. Just like a Rubi with lockers and MT's will do better (better yet, easier) off road.

The Rubi isn't going to get stuck (and if it does, it can lock-up all 4 wheels), but things will be easier with LSD over an open diff.
06-19-2013 05:56 PM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
For this reason, an LSD-equipped Sport/Sahara is in truth a better winter weather vehicle than a Rubicon.
Hmmm.....I would guess so but with BLD the poor Rubi can probably manage to get through the snow.
06-19-2013 05:49 PM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
Yes, that is what I meant.
Then yes.

Unmodified and in 2wd, a Rubi's rear differential and computer assisted traction programs will function exactly like a Sport.
06-19-2013 05:47 PM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
But if you're speaking only about traction assistance, then the answer is "yes."
Yes, that is what I meant.
06-19-2013 05:41 PM
MTH Panthermark is spot on.

As the Rubicon is meant to be the most offroad capable of all Wranglers, it comes with the most offroad oriented features--thus the lockers.

And the type of locker that is standard equipment in the Rubi is mutually exclusive of the type of LSD that is optional on the Sport/Sahara. There's only room for one in each differential ("pumpkin").

For this reason, an LSD-equipped Sport/Sahara is in truth a better winter weather vehicle than a Rubicon. An LSD is useful on and off the trail, whereas a locker is really only useful on the trail.

That's just one of the trade offs you make when buying a Rubi. Others include, for example, the gas mileage hits you take getting standard mud tires and 4.10 differential gears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
So a Rubi in 2WD is the same as my sport?
Depends on what you mean by "the same."

The Rubi will likely have 4.10 gearing and mud tires, neither of which (in its stock form) will be possessed by your Sport.

But if you're speaking only about traction assistance, then the answer is "yes."
06-19-2013 05:40 PM
LoCo Jeep So a Rubi in 2WD is the same as my sport?
06-19-2013 05:28 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
Panthermark or MTH can either of you tell me why LSD doesn't come standard on Rubicons (I believe that is the case...if not please correct me) and why it can't even be ordered as and option?
Sure,

Because the (JK) Rubi comes with standard lockers, and with the type of locker the JK uses, you can't have both in the pumpkin ( that is why LSD isn't even an option). TJ Rubi's came with the best of both worlds (in the rear)...they had a differential that was limited slip when it wasn't selectively locked....sweet.

If you are buying a Rubi, you are probably doing some serious off-roading/crawling, so lockers (and the 4:1 transfer case) are more important than LSD.

In terms of hard-core off-roading/crawling, Lockers > LSD > Open diff.

I wish Jeep gave you the option to buy ala carte. I would have LSD in the rear (daily driving, snow/ice/rain), and a selectable locker up front (in case I even found myself off the beaten path).
06-19-2013 05:16 PM
LoCo Jeep Panthermark or MTH can either of you tell me why LSD doesn't come standard on Rubicons (I believe that is the case...if not please correct me) and why it can't even be ordered as and option?
06-19-2013 12:46 PM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
I came into ths conversation with an open mind after I bought my Jeep because I thought maybe I had made a mistake. I have come to the conclusion that I unwittingly made the right choice for me and got my vehicle without lockers and LSD.

. . . . The 4WD, traction control with BLD is more than enough for my needs.
I guess the issue is with the above language.

Whether you "made a mistake" and whether "BLD is more than enough" are not necessarily the same questions.

I understood you to be seeking an answer to the first question--whether you "made a mistake."

On that, I think the answer is yes. It's not a big mistake and it's not terribly important given your intended use, but it's hard to argue that on a cost/benefit analysis deliberately passing on an LSD is a mistake.

Having an LSD couldn't hurt you and could only benefit you, so the only argument possible that it wasn't a mistake is that you saved $295 on an approximately $30k purchase. To me, that's like saying you saved $295 by having the dealer remove the seats and replace them with upside down buckets epoxied to the floor. Sure, the seats would be mostly "redundant" with the buckets . . . but for pete's sake, for $295 you could've had real seats.

That's an exaggeration of course, but it drives the point home. The 3.73 gears mentioned earlier is another low cost option that is almost universally beneficial, and it often generates similar arguments about whether some "made a mistake" by electing to save literally just a few dollars in exchange for having noticeably less applied horsepower.

Now, if your question really was whether "BLD is more than enough" for your needs, then the answer is also yes. It'll be fine. You'll love your jeep and it'll do what's asked. Just like with 3.21 gears.

So would it have been wiser to toss in another $295 and check the box ordering the rear LSD (i.e., did you make a mistake?)? Yes. But by failing to do so, have you ended up with a jeep that is incapable (i.e., is BLD not enough for your needs?)? No, certainly not.
06-19-2013 12:17 PM
panthermark I guess I'll put it like this.
You don't "need" lockers or LSD, but they help.

I'm not a rock crawler/off-roader myself....but I ordered LSD because for a DD/on-pavement/lght trail, RWD vehicle, there is literally no downside to having it..especially for $295. The Wrangler LSD isn't all that strong, but it is fine for light duty trails and winter weather....which is what you described.

You will be fine without it (there are tons of Wranglers out there with open diffs....including every JK Rubi), but come snow/rain/ice and light trails, it would have made things easier.
06-19-2013 09:48 AM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
So . . . does BLD work? Yep. But it's definitely not as good as either a locker or an LSD.

As to the Chysler engineer, I note that not only did he use the term "almost any obstacle," but he prefaced it with the phrase "will negotiate." My jeep bucked and lunged up many of the same obstacles those with lockers and LSDs crawled smoothly over. Does that mean it "negotiated" the same obstacles? I guess. But it was more jarring and dangerous to the vehicle.

So again, as has been repeatedly said, BLD is leagues better than just open differentials and 4wd. I don't think anybody is saying they'd rather just have open diffs without BLD. BLD is most certainly a worthwhile technological advancement.

But open diffs and BLD is NOT as good as a locker, NOT as good as an LSD, and NOT as good as LSD + BLD. At $375, the factory installed LSD is a steal and can't do anything but help you onroad and off. I bought my jeep "as is" off the lot from a prior year's leftovers, but if you ordered your jeep, you should have ordered the LSD.
Why does everyone keep repeating this mantra. No one has said BLD is better or even as good as lockers or LSD. I sure haven't and the expert, the Chrysler engineer plainly states it isn't.

What is a common theme with everyone and also is stated in the article is that BLD is a very formidable and effective technology. I have also come to agree it is from everything I have read.

I didn't buy my Jeep to climb rocks. I bought it to have fun with the top off, to take it the woods to hunt and fish and to get from point A to B in the snow when needed. My behind the wheel off roading time will be a friction of the total use of the vehicle. If the opposite was true I could see the need for LSD and lockers. My guess is that several of the people who responded in this thread fall into this rock climbing category so I understand where they are coming from.

I came into ths conversation with an open mind after I bought my Jeep because I thought maybe I had made a mistake. I have come to the conclusion that I unwittingly made the right choice for me and got my vehicle without lockers and LSD.

I firmly believe and don't see how anyone can argue that lockers and LSD are indeed a redundancy when the vehicle already comes standard with traction control with BLD. Will the vehicle handle better in extreme situations, go through rougher terrian with lockers and LSD added.....probably but for my use still redundant. My feeling is that LSD and lockers add to an already very good system to a level that I don't need and with lockers something I would never use. The 4WD, traction control with BLD is more than enough for my needs.

Thanks everyone for your opinions.
06-18-2013 06:46 PM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
Why is that? Can you explain?
WatchThis! is far, far more qualified to speak about technical offroading then I am, but I'll take a crack at this question with a basic example from personal experience.

If you're driving slowly up an incline and one of the front tires loses traction, what happens? It's happened to me, and I have neither lockers nor LSDs. Like you, I have open diffs and BLD.

As near as I can tell, what happens is (1) the entire front axle stops pulling immediately and the tire without traction starts spinning; (2) you either stop or actually start to move backward because half of your wheels aren't pulling anymore and the amount of throttle you've been applying is no longer sufficient; (3) you apply throttle so the traction secured by the rear axle will provide enough forward power to at least stop you from rolling backward; (4) BLD kicks in about this time and brakes the spinning wheel, giving you a sudden burst of forward movement as that axle again starts pulling and you've applied extra throttle; and (5) you get either a near simultaneous second sudden burst of forward movement as the BLD releases if you're still giving it too much throttle, or you get a near simultaneous drop of forward movement if you've eased back on the throttle, the latter of which may send you back a few inches and put you right back into the problem you just got out of.

Unless you're able to change your line or you goose the throttle enough to rocket forward a bit with some momentum, this process is likely to repeat itself on the rear axle.

That, I believe, is why so many of the videos showing BLD working "on the trail" show the jeep bucking and lunging while the system engages and disengages over obstacles.

I can tell you from personal experience that it's a pretty jarring experience from the inside of the cabin. The sudden drops in forward movement (including starting to slide backward) coupled with the sudden surges forward are . . . somewhat alarming.

But how about the same situation with a locker? One front tire loses traction and . . . well, nothing. The jeep keeps pulling smoothly upward and you don't have to goof around with trying to time and measure your application and dis-application of the throttle with the computer's decision to engage/disengage the brakes.

How about the same situation with an LSD? As the front tire loses traction, the mechanical gearing/clutches of the LSD transfers power back the other way. This again results in a smooth operation while you continue up the hill. Only if you lose traction entirely and immediately does the LSD not function at all, at which point the BLD would kick in to get it going as noted above.

So . . . does BLD work? Yep. But it's definitely not as good as either a locker or an LSD.

As to the Chysler engineer, I note that not only did he use the term "almost any obstacle," but he prefaced it with the phrase "will negotiate." My jeep bucked and lunged up many of the same obstacles those with lockers and LSDs crawled smoothly over. Does that mean it "negotiated" the same obstacles? I guess. But it was more jarring and dangerous to the vehicle.

So again, as has been repeatedly said, BLD is leagues better than just open differentials and 4wd. I don't think anybody is saying they'd rather just have open diffs without BLD. BLD is most certainly a worthwhile technological advancement.

But open diffs and BLD is NOT as good as a locker, NOT as good as an LSD, and NOT as good as LSD + BLD. At $375, the factory installed LSD is a steal and can't do anything but help you onroad and off. I bought my jeep "as is" off the lot from a prior year's leftovers, but if you ordered your jeep, you should have ordered the LSD.
06-18-2013 06:37 PM
panthermark This is how I explained in another post about an hour ago...
-------------------
That is actually the most important part. BLD, simply wants both wheels to spin at the same speed. To do so means that you have to overcome your own brakes. That is where the power reduction comes from, while limited slip on the other hand does not rob any power. It is also why BLD can't be used in place of LSD in "on road" driving.

Basically, if you have a wheel in the air and you need 50 lb-ft of torque to the stationary wheel on the ground to get moving, BLD will lock your spinning wheel at 50 lb-ft, but you will need 100 lb-ft to get moving because BLD wants both wheels to turn at the same speed. That is fine if you need to get over a rock or a log at 2mph once in a blue moon, but uselsss on the street in everyday driving.

Trac-Lok isn't the greatest LSD in the world....far from it. It is best used on the street instead of the trails. But Trac-Lok + BLD is a great combo for the everyday driver and part time light duty off-roader.
--------------

So yup, the issue is that you have to overcome your own brakes.

It is why BLD is fine as fake LSD pretending to be a locker once in a blue moon when crawlng over a log at low speed...but it will never replace a locker off road, or LSD on road.
06-18-2013 06:32 PM
WatchThis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post

Then you and the Chrysler engineer agree. Its great when two experts agree.
So now you are just being a smart guy hu? Good we need a few more people around who make statements like " A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situatio that a similar vehicel with locking differenial will" based on something they read online put out by the company that is promoting it, not any experience they or anyone else has had with it.

Heck we could also use someone else who only looks/pays attention to the side of an argument that makes there decision on whatever subject look like the best decision.
06-18-2013 06:14 PM
WatchThis! Why it does it I don't know, never thought about it much. I bet it has something to do with the brakes not being able to hold back the spinning wheel enough to send power to the one that is not turning if you are on the gas. Remember that there has to be enough brake applied to overcome the force holding back the wheel that is not spinning. If it is something as simple as one being in the air then it is not that much force, but if one is in a bind then the brakes have to hold more force against the free wheel then the wheel that is in a bind has on it.
As far as I have seen BLD does not work very well in these spots when having to go anything over and idle.
06-18-2013 06:02 PM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
WatchThis!....Sure BLD is great
Then you and the Chrysler engineer agree. Its great when two experts agree.
06-18-2013 05:55 PM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
Sure BLD is great but it is no where close to an LSD or Locker, unless you only drive slow on wet roads or extreamly easy trails. If you are somewhere that you have to apply any throttle at all then BDL no longer works worth a damn.
Why is that? Can you explain?
06-18-2013 05:15 PM
WatchThis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
panthermark, After reading your article again I am even more impressed with BLD. Also I see how the author compares BLD to lockers because BLD mimics axle lockers by electronically keeping both wheels turning as when axles are locked.

BLD also mimics LSD in 2 WD. BLD.....I'm very impressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situation that a similar vehicle with locking differential will.
Sounds like someone is talking about stuff they have no real life exp with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
This is not my opinion is it the opinion of the author if the article. No one is saying BLD is better than lockers. The author specifically said "Just to get this out of the way; from the Jeep perspective, BLD is not a substitute for locking differentials."

"A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situation that a similar vehicle with locking differential will".

My guess the operative word in the last quote is almost.


Sure BLD is great but it is no where close to an LSD or Locker, unless you only drive slow on wet roads or extreamly easy trails. If you are somewhere that you have to apply any throttle at all then BDL no longer works worth a damn.

I can think of a LOT of situations that BLD will not even get you close to getting you over something.

Like others have said its just a sails pitch.
06-18-2013 05:11 PM
DC Dennis
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
I am surprised at how the author is being disparaged. This guy isn't some pencil pushing desk jockey hack with no real world experience.


His bio.....Loren Trotter is an engineer in Active Chassis Control Systems, as well as a die-hard Jeep® enthusiast and avid off-roader.


My guess is that "engineer in Active Chassis Control Systems" means he designs or helps design the systems we are talking about. I would consider him an expert and someone I am going to base my beliefs on since I am still looking for answers.
Two things to look at, first, Jeep will not let an article go out without the lawyers and PR team first reviewing it. Second, it is the guys baby, he is going to build it up to be as fantastic as he can get away with, you need to read it with a grain of salt.

BDL is NOT an electronic locker, the TJ's had those, those are actual locking differentials actuated by electric current versus air, hydralics or a cable; it is also NOT an electronic LSD. It is just an additional program they added to the TCS program using brake and engine modulation to simulate an LSD, not a locker. Is it better than nothing? HECK YEAH! Is it equal to or better than a locker? Not even close. Is it equal to or better than an LSD? Not quite.
06-18-2013 04:59 PM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC Dennis View Post
It was the PR guys words based on how they thought they could spice up what the enginerds told them. This is a sales pitch, not an independent article.
I am surprised at how the author is being disparaged. This guy isn't some pencil pushing desk jockey hack with no real world experience.


His bio.....Loren Trotter is an engineer in Active Chassis Control Systems, as well as a die-hard Jeep® enthusiast and avid off-roader.


My guess is that "engineer in Active Chassis Control Systems" means he designs or helps design the systems we are talking about. I would consider him an expert and someone I am going to base my beliefs on since I am still looking for answers.
06-18-2013 04:36 PM
LoCo Jeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by WatchThis! View Post
So please tell me how a Rubi wich has BDL can only make it so far up something before you have to start grabbing the lockers?

I call complete B.S. on this one because of hundreds of hours on the trails wheeling with JKs and watching how they react in different situations.

This is not my opinion is it the opinion of the author if the article. No one is saying BLD is better than lockers. The author specifically said "Just to get this out of the way; from the Jeep perspective, BLD is not a substitute for locking differentials."

"A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situation that a similar vehicle with locking differential will".

My guess the operative word in the last quote is almost.
06-18-2013 03:41 PM
WatchThis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post

A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situation that a similar vehicle with locking differential will.
So please tell me how a Rubi wich has BDL can only make it so far up something before you have to start grabbing the lockers?

I call complete B.S. on this one because of hundreds of hours on the trails wheeling with JKs and watching how they react in different situations.
06-18-2013 03:01 PM
285 HP I'm with Dennis, love my 3.73 with LSD.
06-18-2013 01:32 PM
Rooster76 eLSD IS NOT = BLD
I re-read the blog article written by a engineer. What I found out is that ELSD is not the same as BLD (that all JK's have). I made the comment it was earlier, sorry. After reading way to many snarky drug references I found that its only in Quadra-Drive® II Jeeps. That's basically some grand cherokees. It works almost exactly like and electric locker. The main difference apparently is a locker is turned on by a human and the ELSD is taken care of by the jeeps computer. If anything I feel he should have compared ELSD to Lockers, and not BLD. That's a bit more of a stretch. Do the wheels seem to be spinning at the same rate on those videos to you?

BLD is much more closely related to LSD than a locker. At least in my mind. An LSD allows some limited slip (for turning) and then kicks in mechanically when the wheel starts spinning. To say that BLD, or LSD, is equally capable as a locker is a bit misleading. Though he does add that it's not a locker replacement.

Quote:
A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situation that a similar vehicle with locking differential will.
A jeep with BLD will hit a challenging obstacle and resemble Wiley Coyote trying to get going after the road runner, sometimes having the rear end going from side to side. Maybe also needing a running start for some momentum. It might take two or three tries. A locked up axle will allow you to slowly controlled take more challenging climbs, and will help keep momentum through sand and mud. Of course you can still get stuck with lockers if the ground has low traction. For just going down logging roads lockers would be overkill.

I agree 3.73 rear is a no brainier option to get. The only exception would be if you were planning on going with much bigger tires (35+) where you might want to regear anyways.
06-18-2013 01:25 PM
DC Dennis
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
^That is what the Chrysler engineer in the article said.

We all know it isn't quite true, but it was the Chrysler engineer making the BLD comparison to lockers.

BLD is fine in certain off-road cetain situations when you don't have lockers, but it isn't a locker, and it isn't a true LSD.

It is an electronic braking system trying to act like a locker by pretending to be LSD that only works by slowing both wheels down to the same speed.
It was the PR guys words based on how they thought they could spice up what the enginerds told them. This is a sales pitch, not an independent article.
06-18-2013 01:25 PM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
^That is what the Chrysler engineer in the article said.

We all know it isn't quite true, but it was the Chrysler engineer making the BLD comparison to lockers.
But of course we know that's ridiculous. It's a manufacturer's claim.

The top level wrangler (the Rubi) comes with REAL lockers and BLD. There's a reason for that. Namely, that BLD doesn't even approach real lockers in terms of functionality when the terrain becomes truly treacherous.

Sure, in situations when you don't really need lockers anyway, then BLD operates as an enhancement. I've had it kick in a few times and usually find it helpful.

For example, when you've got one wheel momentarily spinning in the air, BLD will brake it to send some power to the other side so you can pull foward and hopefully get the airbourne wheel down again once the terrain changes. And if you've got one wheel spinning in gravel while the other needs to climb over a rock or a root, BLD can stop the spin and likewise get the other wheel climbing again.

But . . . there's no way I'd equate BLD to lockers. If a jeep jamboree trail recommends lockers, you'd have to be a nut to roll in there with just BLD thinking it's "basically" the same.

Whatever he said in the article, I've got to think the chrysler engineer understands that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
BLD is fine in certain off-road cetain situations when you don't have lockers, but it isn't a locker, and it isn't a true LSD.

It is an electronic braking system trying to act like a locker by pretending to be LSD that only works by slowing both wheels down to the same speed.
^I really like that explanation. Well-articulated.
06-18-2013 01:18 PM
fljeepleo All BLD does is bog you down when you would need it. No comparison to a locker. I have experienced both in action.
06-18-2013 01:13 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC Dennis View Post
Credability lost here. Sorry
^That is what the Chrysler engineer in the article said.

We all know it isn't quite true, but it was the Chrysler engineer making the BLD comparison to lockers.

BLD is fine in certain off-road cetain situations when you don't have lockers, but it isn't a locker, and it isn't a true LSD.

It is an electronic braking system trying to act like a locker by pretending to be LSD that only works by slowing both wheels down to the same speed.
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