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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-18-2013 12:59 PM
Jerry Bransford Blaine's reputation for pre and post-sales support is nothing short of amazing and outstanding, he goes out of his way to make sure his customers are happy. Really.
06-18-2013 12:54 PM
TJZ Thank you very much ! I'm Sold !

Those are the kind of solid answers I would expect from a Vendor every time. It's a pleasure
To see someone stand behind anything nowadays but you have taken it to another level !
Thanks so much.
06-18-2013 09:12 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBoat View Post
Thank you very much for the response. I have never seen that kind of an offer behind someone's product. You must be very confident in your product. Is there any baseline data from your testing you can share? I have used Perf Friction and Hawk before. My other ride is a Ford Lightning. Stopping a 5000 lb truck from racing level speeds pushes the brakes to their limits, as you can imagine. The only brakes better for the truck are to install a $3000 set of Brembos. I may have to take you up on your offer. My brake pads and rotors are practically new. In my opinion, brakes are such a critical operating part of my vehicles that I will generally replace the rotors when I replace the pads since the rotors aren't hugely expensive (for a Jeep ).
We discovered something very interesting about data and trying to come up with anything to show the differences in brake performance by product.

Essentially it boils down to this, it's not possible. We tried some testing, and then we sent parts out to folks we trusted to have them try it. The variables are so high that even an average of several stop has very little basis in reality or any reality that would matter to a customer.

The basic test consisted of what happens in the real world and to us was the only thing that really matters. Make a mark as the starting point of the braking event, travel at a given speed until you reach the mark and then try to stop the vehicle as fast as possible in the shortest distance, measure it, record it, do it again.

Differences in road surface quality, tire pressure, ambient temperature and reaction time even with a marked starting point produced results in some cases that were no closer than 50 FEET to each other.

A tester on another board tested his JK brakes (not our product at the time) and his first stop was about 170 something feet, second was 120ish.

He was quite proud of the 120 number but the reality is if someone happens to pull out in front of you, the only number that matters is the 170.

Most testing is given as starting from a 60mph road speed and if you are a very adventurous individual who likes big adrenaline rushes, go take your rig out to some secluded area and try doing 3 60mph stops to 0 back to back trying to make them as short as possible. It is not very safe and the risk of causing some serious damage to you or your rig is very real and very high. I wouldn't suggest it.

At first we attributed it to the tester just not being very adept at their task and only after we got similar results from every tester did we arrive at the conclusion we did.

Then I started paying attention to what the other brake vendors were saying about their products and noticed over time that their ads changed from "This product will stop your rig 35% faster than anything else" to "our customers report being able to stop 35% faster than anything else".

That is very likely due to the same things we discovered which was twofold. It's not possible to figure out that percentage and the other is liability. If I tell you that you can stop 10 percent faster which is roughly 15 feet from 60mph and you rear end someone, it's not difficult to extrapolate how easy it would be to do some measuring and find out that due to road conditions, temps, or tire grip that you didn't stop 10% faster and now I'm somewhat responsible for helping you repair the guys car you ran into.

The tests with our vehicles are simply too subjective to generate any empirical data that is useful or able to be proven so even if I had it, I wouldn't share it.

If you doubt any of this, take your rig out to some place safe without anyone else around and do 3 or 4 stops from a lower speed like 40-45 and see how close you can get with the stops and see how short you can make them. It is eye opening to say the least as to how difficult it really is.

Above all, be safe.
06-18-2013 08:52 AM
Arch Stanton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
I, too, fell for Blaine's outrageous scam.. It took me about a half day to pay up after I installed these...
Before I give my opinion on BM brake pads, I'm going to have the mechanic who did the install of the BM brake pads check for air in the brake line. Hopefully, I can get rid of the squishy brake pedal!
06-18-2013 08:17 AM
Patrick H I, too, fell for Blaine's outrageous scam.. It took me about a half day to pay up after I installed these...
06-18-2013 07:30 AM
Verf Take my money! Holy moly! That's standing behind your product if I've ever heard it! Thanks for being a solid vendor!
06-18-2013 07:04 AM
DBoat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post

You kinda have to go back to the beginning on this and get the full story. I with support from Van at Vanco Power Brakes developed the TJ Vanco Big Brake kits. There is not a doubt in anyone's mind that they are a bit on the pricey side. During the development our only goal was to provide the best stopping available in a particular rim size. We tested rotors, pads, rotors and pads, pads and rotors. We settled on Centric Premium rotors as the most consistent performer for the dollar spent and then concentrated on pad testing and selection. The used pads from our testing would fill up a 5 gallon bucket to overflowing and each time a selection was talked about as being good somewhere, we acquired it and tested it.

Our first set of pads was the tried and true Performance Friction stuff which soon showed it's deficiencies in the colder climates. We moved on from there to the Centric Posi-quiet, Axxess, Hawk, Morse, and finally EBC in Reds, Greens, Yellows, and even the Blues. The yellows performed the best for us to the point that we dispensed out testing info out to everyone that wanted to know in order to do our best to keep folks safe. Lots of folks bought and ran the yellows based on our recommendations and to date, neither Van or I have sold a set of TJ stock replacement yellows.

Then I was contacted and asked to test the Black Magic compound and like the other 10 or so similar contacts, I had low expectations. At the end of our testing I was blown away with how good they were and acquired a number of them in the stock 477 industry pad shape to send out to be tested.

My criteria was you had to be running the EBC Yellows with Centric Premium rotors and they had to be the best stopping you had experienced.

Several stepped up and I sent out the pads to be tested. I know from my own testing the using them on a set of rotors that was previously used with the yellows caused no ill effects.

My other criteria was as it always is that I am not able to screen the results or filter it in any manner, they have to post up in the thread what their experiences are without my influence. Across the board, our new product hands down out performed the yellows in every way possible with maybe the only exception being visible dust generation.

So, I have no doubts as to how they perform against the yellows.

If you have them now on good rotors, I'm more than happy to send you a set of pads for you to evaluate. If you find them to be deficient when compared to the yellow's stopping performance hot or cold, keep them free of charge, throw them away, or do whatever you like with them. If on the other hand you find them to be better, you pay full pop at your convenience. I also promise you won't hurt my feelings which ever way you go and you may take as long as you wish for the evaluation.

I will let you know up front that I've made this same offer many times and have yet to give away a set of pads.
Thank you very much for the response. I have never seen that kind of an offer behind someone's product. You must be very confident in your product. Is there any baseline data from your testing you can share? I have used Perf Friction and Hawk before. My other ride is a Ford Lightning. Stopping a 5000 lb truck from racing level speeds pushes the brakes to their limits, as you can imagine. The only brakes better for the truck are to install a $3000 set of Brembos. I may have to take you up on your offer. My brake pads and rotors are practically new. In my opinion, brakes are such a critical operating part of my vehicles that I will generally replace the rotors when I replace the pads since the rotors aren't hugely expensive (for a Jeep ).
06-17-2013 11:36 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBoat View Post
I would like to see some actual hard data on the difference between the EBC yellow and Black Magic prior to going with posted seat of the pants or personal opinions.
I generally trust my fellow Jeepers on here, however, I also know that when one changes pads, there should be little doubt that the new pads work better than the old (and possibly worn out) pads that were on the vehicle. Dont get me wrong, I have also changed pads on prior vehicles where the replacements were not as good as what they replaced. I think we should support those who support the forum, but my experience with EBCs goes back over a decade and they have never let me down.
So where is the empirical data? side by side or new rotors and new shoes to new rotors and new shoes?
You kinda have to go back to the beginning on this and get the full story. I with support from Van at Vanco Power Brakes developed the TJ Vanco Big Brake kits. There is not a doubt in anyone's mind that they are a bit on the pricey side. During the development our only goal was to provide the best stopping available in a particular rim size. We tested rotors, pads, rotors and pads, pads and rotors. We settled on Centric Premium rotors as the most consistent performer for the dollar spent and then concentrated on pad testing and selection. The used pads from our testing would fill up a 5 gallon bucket to overflowing and each time a selection was talked about as being good somewhere, we acquired it and tested it.

Our first set of pads was the tried and true Performance Friction stuff which soon showed it's deficiencies in the colder climates. We moved on from there to the Centric Posi-quiet, Axxess, Hawk, Morse, and finally EBC in Reds, Greens, Yellows, and even the Blues. The yellows performed the best for us to the point that we dispensed out testing info out to everyone that wanted to know in order to do our best to keep folks safe. Lots of folks bought and ran the yellows based on our recommendations and to date, neither Van or I have sold a set of TJ stock replacement yellows.

Then I was contacted and asked to test the Black Magic compound and like the other 10 or so similar contacts, I had low expectations. At the end of our testing I was blown away with how good they were and acquired a number of them in the stock 477 industry pad shape to send out to be tested.

My criteria was you had to be running the EBC Yellows with Centric Premium rotors and they had to be the best stopping you had experienced.

Several stepped up and I sent out the pads to be tested. I know from my own testing the using them on a set of rotors that was previously used with the yellows caused no ill effects.

My other criteria was as it always is that I am not able to screen the results or filter it in any manner, they have to post up in the thread what their experiences are without my influence. Across the board, our new product hands down out performed the yellows in every way possible with maybe the only exception being visible dust generation.

So, I have no doubts as to how they perform against the yellows.

If you have them now on good rotors, I'm more than happy to send you a set of pads for you to evaluate. If you find them to be deficient when compared to the yellow's stopping performance hot or cold, keep them free of charge, throw them away, or do whatever you like with them. If on the other hand you find them to be better, you pay full pop at your convenience. I also promise you won't hurt my feelings which ever way you go and you may take as long as you wish for the evaluation.

I will let you know up front that I've made this same offer many times and have yet to give away a set of pads.
06-17-2013 11:05 PM
TJZ Thanks for all the help ! Can anyone tell me why one is better than the other ? I'm gonna pull the trigger on one or the other on Wed. So I have the parts for the weekend. To tell ya the truth, I've never heard of either of them. Think I'm going to replace the rotors as well. They are not bad , but what the hell ! Just want to upgrade whatever I work on. It seems to make sense to go with better rather than OE. Am I wrong ?
06-17-2013 07:31 PM
DBoat I would like to see some actual hard data on the difference between the EBC yellow and Black Magic prior to going with posted seat of the pants or personal opinions.
I generally trust my fellow Jeepers on here, however, I also know that when one changes pads, there should be little doubt that the new pads work better than the old (and possibly worn out) pads that were on the vehicle. Dont get me wrong, I have also changed pads on prior vehicles where the replacements were not as good as what they replaced. I think we should support those who support the forum, but my experience with EBCs goes back over a decade and they have never let me down.
So where is the empirical data? side by side or new rotors and new shoes to new rotors and new shoes?
06-17-2013 06:47 PM
mdutton Black Magic pads are great much better than stock. Note the pads are different left to right
06-17-2013 02:51 PM
Jerry Bransford X4 on the Black Magic pad recommendations which is what I am running as well. EBC's Yellow Stuff pads used to be #1 for stopping power until Black Magic introduced their pads.
06-17-2013 02:21 PM
IslandTJ I am running 33's on stock calipers and to date, Black Magic pads are the best brake pads I've experienced.
06-17-2013 01:45 PM
TJDave http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/blac...ht=black+magic


BM pads are the best pads I have ran on my 04 TJ vs stock, and a set I bought at O'Really's. Night and day difference. I installed Centric premium rotors at the same time.
06-17-2013 01:09 PM
DBoat another option is EBC brake pads..I run them on my Jeep and my Ford Lightning.
06-16-2013 03:46 PM
UnlimitedRubicon Black Magic Brakes


The owner is a sponsoring vendor/supporting member of this site and goes by the same name if you have questions about the product.
06-16-2013 03:01 PM
TJZ
04 TJ Brakes Best Pads ?

It's Time to do my Brakes and wondered if any of you have some suggestions
as to the Best Pads to use? Any Upgrade information would be Great as well.
This will be my First DIY Brake job so Tips are good also.
Sick of paying people Too Much for simple tasks !
Thanks in Advance.

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