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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-30-2011 07:40 AM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepDen

You're right in that we probably agree more about this topic than we disagree.
I'd love to have a good diesel. My plan is to never get rid of my Jeep, but do an engine/trans switch in about six or seven years. Somewhere in the 125k mile range. The Hemi is the classic swap, but I'm hoping I'll have a good diesel option to consider too.
04-30-2011 07:19 AM
JeepDen
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH View Post
Great . . . wait, what are we disagreeing about again?.
You're right in that we probably agree more about this topic than we disagree.

I'll expand some on your point about the diesel aftermarket. It's huge already and seemingly getting larger. I've been a subscriber of Diesel Power magazine since nearly it's inception, and all one has to look at is the amount of companies in the advertising that have grown by leaps and bounds just in the last 5 years alone, followed by the unending documentation of owners adding significant gains with very low cost bolt-ons and factory take-offs. That market is waiting for more diesels to come to dealer lots in vehicles that aren't just found in Heavy-Duty 3/4 & 1 Ton pickup trucks.

The VW TDI is already well ahead in the US market making it the bell-weather for other manufacturers to follow. As a matter of fact, we are currently looking at the TDI VW Toureg for my wife's next vehicle. Now if the new Durango had a diesel option, that would be the vehicle I'd recommend for her. But alas, no diesel there (at least not yet).
04-30-2011 06:18 AM
baytownbert This is my thoughts exactly. For the way I drive my Jeep, I haven't noticed it has a weak link in the motor, auto tranny, 32" tires and 3.73 gears. It all seems adequate, but then again I am on the flat Gulf Coast of Texas.

When I make the leap to 35" tires, I suspect either the 4.88 or 5.13 gears is where I should go. I hear strong arguments for the 5.13 gears, but I'm wondering if the 4.88's are better for this flat country, as far as gas mileage goes. Of course 5.13 gears would be superior if gas didn't factor in.

Has anyone swapped to 4.88's or 5.13's and ran the 32" tires w/auto tranny for any length of time and how did that go?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ksuflash View Post
I came from a GMC Envoy V8. Got the 2011 Wrangler Sahara the other day. Power is less but I as well am in no hurry to get to my destination. I am just enjoying the ride even if it takes me a few minutes longer to get there.
04-30-2011 03:39 AM
pzlr0v I got the 2010 Rubicon 6 speed 2 dr, and I felt it could use a few more ponies. My wife has an 2006 Impala SS, and she can dust me in a heart beat!

I put a cat back dual exhaust kit on my Jeep, it made it louder but not faster. Until I put an aftermarket Cold Air Intake on it. I must admit it did open up the power range. It helped 2nd and 3rd big time and passing in 4th is much much easier.
I am please with the Jeep's powertrain, but when they get the new motor in the 2012 we are all going to want one!
04-29-2011 10:46 PM
joe002 Just an note on fuel prices - at least here in the Phoenix area. We have a web site that shows fuel prices and in my Zip code the cheapest Diesel price is $4.03, Premium $3.85, Mid $3.74, and Regular $3.65.

It looks like you can even check prices around the country - give it a shot: phoenixgasprices.com/GasPriceSearch.aspx
04-29-2011 10:37 PM
TangoJK Have the 2011 JK V6, 6sp, 3.73 gears and I have the power to get where I want at a decent clip. It would be nice to have more power but its really not a realitive issue. I got enough power to get out in traffic quickly and cruise at 80 mph easily on the highway and have had it up to just over 90mph. So I have no complaints.
04-29-2011 10:06 PM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepDen View Post
I have to disagree. . . . .
Great . . . wait, what are we disagreeing about again?

It is true that red tape does in fact reduce the efficiency and power of modern US diesel engines, right? And it is true that the required electronics and so on in modern diesels does significantly differentiate them from older diesels that could be so readily maintained in your driveway and survive for years and years?

You might have me on the cost per gallon. I haven't really looked recently. I also didn't suggest using the current Euro diesel, but it certainly makes sense as do your other options. So no disagreement there.

In fact, I don't think I disagree with anything you said, save maybe one itty bitty little point.

You said: "In the end, if more efficient engines are employed, they will become the norm, not the infrequent. Diesels are far greater more efficient in generating power than gasoline engines."

I say this is fantasy for at least the next 20 years, probably more. It is true that diesels have been better (especially for Wrangler applications) for . . . well, forever. But to become the norm simply because they are better assumes "the market" is making these decisions.

The reason we don't have a huge diesel car segment here in the US is not "the market." The reason is regulatory. Regulatory agencies have no need or incentive to be rational. In heavily regulated areas, logic and reason prevail when politically convenient.

I believe we will get a diesel at some point. But I do not believe it will live up to its potential. It will be shouldered by regulatory requirements that make it significantly less efficient, less reliable, less powerful, and more expensive than it would otherwise be. In that sense, it's not going to get to compete on fair terms with gasoline engines. I too could beat a world class sprinter . . . so long as he's wearing leg shackles.

What will be most interesting will be watching the aftermarket answer the call in the years after we get a diesel Wrangler. I expect there will be a wide market for bolt-ons and computer chips that are easily reversed prior to emissions testing.
04-29-2011 04:49 PM
JeepDen
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH View Post
The problem is that here in the states they might have to neuter the diesel to get it emissions legal. By the time they get through all the red tape, it could very well end up only marginally more fuel efficient than a gas engine. Since diesel here is so much more expensive than gas, increased fuel efficiency would be absolutely necessary to bring it to market on a broad scale.

On top of that, all the electronics, sensors, and hoopla needed to make a diesel US legal (even while neutering it) would lead me to seriously question whether a modern US legal diesel Wrangler could expect the sort of legendary longevity obtained by more classic diesels. I hope they figure out a way through all this while still retaining what makes diesel engines so great.

I have to disagree.

First, regarding the price of diesel. Diesel at my local Hess station (for example) as of this morning was selling for .06 cents per 9/10 gallon Less than Premium unleaded and .04 cents more than mid-grade unleaded. So I see nothing there in pricing of the fuel chasing away diesel buyers. The 2008 gap (when diesel soared) was because the consumer was getting whacked with start up low-sulfer diesel fees the Federal government mandated and allowed for costs to be passed on to the consumer. Since then the gap has narrowed as those conversion costs have been absorbed (and the government actually monitored it thanks to the Trucking Industry being vocal about diesel fuel pricing). But just like gasoline, worldwide demand for diesel is up with growing markets become new and/or expanded consumers of crude. But I'll digress before I go into a political rant about tapping our own resouces to lower pricing...

Second, Chrysler has a few options when it comes to sourcing a smaller diesel engine for the US market. It could

1: Do as you suggest and re-engineer the current diesel now employed in Europe for US diesel standards; or

2: Do as they did with the Ram Truck and source an engine from a supplier like Cummins; or

3: Go in-house with Fiat's resources for a diesel option that could be utilized worldwide.

Finally, In any of those scenarios, the key would be for it to be a diesel option that could be outfitted across multiple model lines, not just the Wrangler. That would thereby make the investment aspect for Chrysler (Fiat) more feasible. It's also a reason why diesel options sourced from the larger Heavy-Duty vehicles and put into 1/2 ton Trucks and SUV's are in the works by several manufacturers...

In the end, if more efficient engines are employed, they will become the norm, not the infrequent. Diesels are far greater more efficient in generating power than gasoline engines. They also have longevity in their favor, but one can argue that the fickle buyers of today could care less about longevity, so I won't make that part of my argument for a diesel for others, but I will for myself.
04-29-2011 01:23 PM
aero1 got rid of a mustang gt\cs to go back into a jeep, and never looked back.
04-29-2011 01:18 PM
jk'n I tow a covered utility trailer 6' X 10' Haulmark Cub with all the extras and loaded with all of my camping gear weighs out near the limit of 2980 lbs. I towed it from MA to FL with four passengers and 4 kayaks up top. I would call the 3.8 the little engine that could. Traveling 83 and 81 north through PA and further north, many steep grades it did just fine given the size of the engine. A few times I had to shift to 4th to maintain highway speed of 55 but big deal, while I was doing that, some big rigs were over in the climbing lane barely making 30 mph. I say it is all relative. The jeep with 4.1 gears delivers power to the wheels nice enough for me. That is why when I had a chance to do over when my Sahara Unlimited was new I went with the Rubicon and couldn't be happier. It gets me there safely. And once I'm there it takes me in and out of places with my kayaks and diving gear that I wouldn't trust to any other vehicle. Yep, pure pleasure....even after 3 years of ownership.
04-29-2011 11:28 AM
ModernProspector When I was buying my Jeep, the dealer passed along a rumour he heard of a 4L ish sized, 4 cylinder version of the Cummins was in the works. Maybe that's a long ways off in the future or pure speculation (or BS). Anyone else heard of anything like that? That being said, decent gearing goes a long ways with the stock 3.8, especially with the auto trans. If the 3.73 owners with automatics (stock tires & wheels) haven't tried out the 4.10's, I recommend a test drive of a Rubicon around the block. My '08 Sahara with 32" stock tires and 3.73 felt very lethargic (to me). The same size tires with the 4.10s feels much improved. I can easily imagine how lazy the Jeep would feel with larger tires and not re-gearing adequately to compensate. I drove around very powerful vehicles for many years before buying the Rubicon recently, which gave me different expectations of performance than many people may be used to. I am only marginally satisfied with the present power levels, but have zero desire to drive a standard transmission vehicle on a regualr basis, regardless of any slight improvement of the seat of the pants performance feel, personally.
04-29-2011 09:02 AM
ChaseRedJK The Power Wagon is sick! one day i will own one
04-29-2011 08:52 AM
hushnel In the simplest of views I believe the more specialized anything becomes the less adaptable it is. There is little doubt in my mind that the JK is a specialized vehicle. Then there is the focus of trade off, to me I want a Jeep for what it does best, and in my case that's to get me further into the wild/bush than will a vehicle designed for the pavement. That's not to say it is unsuitable for the highways, it's just not designed for it, yeah, it can tow and it can commute but honestly other vehicles can do those chores better than the Jeep.

The power of my 6 speed JK is just fine, for a guy like me that is not adept at four wheeling more power would likely get me into trouble and possibly damage the drive train. For those that have greater skills or more ambition they can push to the edge of the vehicle's abilities, for them it may well be underpowered. But even in that the vehicle becomes more specialized and must suffer some loss of general utility. It's always a trade off.
04-29-2011 08:02 AM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepDen
Like you, I too would be at the dealer signing the papers if Jeep offered the JK with a Diesel...
The problem is that here in the states they might have to neuter the diesel to get it emissions legal. By the time they get through all the red tape, it could very well end up only marginally more fuel efficient than a gas engine. Since diesel here is so much more expensive than gas, increased fuel efficiency would be absolutely necessary to bring it to market on a broad scale.

On top of that, all the electronics, sensors, and hoopla needed to make a diesel US legal (even while neutering it) would lead me to seriously question whether a modern US legal diesel Wrangler could expect the sort of legendary longevity obtained by more classic diesels. I hope they figure out a way through all this while still retaining what makes diesel engines so great.
04-29-2011 07:38 AM
JeepDen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilldweller View Post
Well, I don't think I complained much, but the 3.8L couldn't tow what I have. Even with 4.56 gears and a Flashpaq, the little-engine-that-couldn't was a slug on the highway and hills; I literally couldn't get it over 40 mph on the last camping trip we had.
Wrong engine, wrong trans = wrong vehicle for my needs. I'm not bashing the JK; I loved it except when I trailered.

This is too big for many of the trails I used to ride but I'd rather overland than crawl. Great engine and trans; feels like a Caddy to drive, even with the trailer in tow.



An Unlimited diesel might bring me back. Torque rules.
From a been there done that point of view, gearing changes only go so far. I tow a 35' RV weighing in @ 7,500lbs (loaded with gear, clothes, etc). To compare the difference, I've towed with my friend's '07 Ram 2500 with the 5.7L Hemi (Dyno'ed 359 HP /382 ft. lbs. tq.) Gas engine with 4.11 gears. On flat roads it performed admirably. On hills of even modest grades, it struggled and slowed by downshifting and keeping RPM's revving high. In comparison, my bone stock '07.5 2500 6.7L Cummins Diesel Ram (350 HP/650 ft. lbs tq). drives like there is nothing attached to the hitch on even steep inclines. And the diesel I could make our NY to PA drive to the campsite (219 miles) with about 1/3 of the tank. With the gas we consumed about 3/4 of the tank for the same drive.

Now I would never expect to tow anything close to that size with a Wrangler (diesel or not), but the point is to share a real world experience of the capability and efficiency between those two engines.

Like you, I too would be at the dealer signing the papers if Jeep offered the JK with a Diesel...
04-29-2011 07:07 AM
JeepDen I feel the common message from those of us who would like to see a more boastful engine aren't coming down on the 3.8L per se, and especially not the 3.8 owners who enjoy them and have no issues for their use, but would like to see the option of engine with far greater torque.

The reason I am a diesel fan is that such power and torque is more easily achieved without significantly increasing the displacement or the addition of other costly bolt-ons for a gasoline motor.

In the end, it the 3.8 remains a satisfying offering for many, and the Pentastar is seemingly making some look forward to an improved gasoline-powered engine. But the diesel option currently offered in Europe engineered for the U.S. market would sure satisfy that needs and desires of the remaining faction of stateside Jeep enthusiasts looking for even greater capability and efficiency from under the hood.
04-29-2011 06:40 AM
LaTuFu
Quote:
Originally Posted by seadog
I've never had an issue with my Jeeps power band. If I stomp on it, it has enough HP to allow me to merge with traffic. I can drive it at 75-80 on the highway, but I don't like to. I'd rather drive the back roads and enjoy the sights.

And everyday, when i drive back and forth to work, I have a huge grin plastered on my face. I have yet to reach my destination and said, " Well, that sucked."
That's a good point, too. I'll never claim the JK is a driving machine, but I find it easier to enjoy the simple pleasures of driving on a beautiful day. My wife and I went to her parents house and took all secondary roads to get there. Just so we could enjoy the drive with no doors and topless. It was nice not dealing with the highway traffic.
04-29-2011 05:28 AM
im-ocd 2010 Wrangler Unlimited 3.8 + manual 6 speed = plenty of power 4 me.
04-28-2011 09:15 PM
seadog I've never had an issue with my Jeeps power band. If I stomp on it, it has enough HP to allow me to merge with traffic. I can drive it at 75-80 on the highway, but I don't like to. I'd rather drive the back roads and enjoy the sights.

And everyday, when i drive back and forth to work, I have a huge grin plastered on my face. I have yet to reach my destination and said, " Well, that sucked."
04-28-2011 08:45 PM
KSCRUDE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol Tex View Post
Howdy,
well after today I like my mighty 3.8 even more. I had to drive 100 miles to meet my brother to take care of family business. I ran 75-85 for both directions with the air conditioner on. I bought gas twice just to check the mpg. I got 19.9 the first time and 19.4 the second time. Leaving a red light beside my brothers truck I was trying to impress him and going into second gear it got a good tire chirp. I am more convinced that the 3.8 is a viable engine for the little brick Jeep. Looking out the square windshield it also reminds me of my first car, a 31 Model A Ford. I am pleased with the little engine!!!!!
X2 TEX I have many ford trucks and SUVs and a fleet of Macks and Peterbuilts and a Corvette that's 3 years old with only 7K miles on her and my 3 month old wrangler is all I want to drive. Great highway cruiser, just don't nobama rig her with big tires and wheels and a lift that should go on a F350 or dodge cummins truck. Then wonder where all your gas and power is going, LOL. It's a mini van motor and all the gearing and chipping and fart can exhausts in the world are not going to help very much. I thing stock in quadratec may be a buy. The mall crawlers have more money then brains.
04-28-2011 07:47 PM
Thracks
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapidmallard View Post
I have a 6 speed, and everything is relative to what you're accustomed to driving. My other vehicle is a bone stock 4 cylinder Honda CRV automatic, and on the highway, my Wrangler suffers in comparison.

I didn't buy my Jeep with the expectation that it would be a performance vehicle, but it does suck having to constantly shift to maintain a reasonable highway speed with the slightest change in grade. Sure, I could rearrange the powerband with gearing changes.

Would I trade my Jeep for anything else? Hell no. Would I enjoy some more power? Of course.
There must be something wrong with your engine. I can manage a 4% grade just fine in 6th.
04-28-2011 07:41 PM
MTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol Tex
I am pleased with the little engine!!!!!
Thought the same thing today coming home from work. Even with a four door and the 3.21 gearing, I can spool out to whatever before shifting with the manual trans. When I'm feeling like I don't care about gas I'll just let it get to about 3500 or 3700 RPMs before grabbing the next gear.

It goes good like that. I can do the same thing on the highway and pick up speed and pass folks going uphill no problem. Moves just as fast as my brother's TJ. I really don't get the complaints--at least not for the manuals.
04-28-2011 06:38 PM
Ol Tex Howdy,
well after today I like my mighty 3.8 even more. I had to drive 100 miles to meet my brother to take care of family business. I ran 75-85 for both directions with the air conditioner on. I bought gas twice just to check the mpg. I got 19.9 the first time and 19.4 the second time. Leaving a red light beside my brothers truck I was trying to impress him and going into second gear it got a good tire chirp. I am more convinced that the 3.8 is a viable engine for the little brick Jeep. Looking out the square windshield it also reminds me of my first car, a 31 Model A Ford. I am pleased with the little engine!!!!!
04-28-2011 04:14 AM
Hilldweller Well, I don't think I complained much, but the 3.8L couldn't tow what I have. Even with 4.56 gears and a Flashpaq, the little-engine-that-couldn't was a slug on the highway and hills; I literally couldn't get it over 40 mph on the last camping trip we had.
Wrong engine, wrong trans = wrong vehicle for my needs. I'm not bashing the JK; I loved it except when I trailered.

This is too big for many of the trails I used to ride but I'd rather overland than crawl. Great engine and trans; feels like a Caddy to drive, even with the trailer in tow.



An Unlimited diesel might bring me back. Torque rules.
04-27-2011 04:17 PM
Ol Tex Howdy folks,
I have driven and raced drag cars since 1961 and am no stranger to speed. I am liking my 3.8 engine better every day. It is smooth, quiet, and is easy on gas compared to my last Z-71 truck. This much maligned little engine does exactly what it was designed to do. It was never meant to be a wheel standing, ground shaking thumper. I think that if it is maintained and not over loaded with tall tires(with no gear change), and added weight that it will do what it was meant to do. To each his own, I am happy with my little boat anchor engine!!!!!! Have a goodun!!!
04-27-2011 03:33 PM
Wrangler2012 Everyone who complains about the 3.8 not having enough power...

should wait and buy a 2012 with the Pentastar.
04-27-2011 03:30 PM
ghendrix6 Also, this motor seems to really like 2600 RPM's and above. It feels a little quicker in acceleration.
04-27-2011 02:46 PM
JIMBOX Notta chance,!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thracks View Post
...should have got the 6-speed.

Anyone else agree?
JIMBO
04-27-2011 02:43 PM
Mr. Sinister
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghendrix6 View Post
I did not even know that my 2010 JK lacked power, until I read about it on WF.
Post of the Year.
04-27-2011 02:43 PM
RaiderRUBICON
Quote:
Originally Posted by danieldlg_13 View Post
It was just the OP's, and a select few, opinion.
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