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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-07-2011 10:32 AM
S8CREDGROUND Just as an update...

My wife and I took the Jeep to a respectable Jeep dealer and they looked it over and found a few issues.

The output shaft bearing from the transfer case was bad, also looking into the pinion bearing and the carrier bearings being bad.

So, we now have involved some higher ups at Darcars and they are honoring the warranty and fixing the Jeep. Lets hope this fixes the problems.

We can't wait to get her back and go out and enjoy the summer!!!
05-10-2011 08:52 AM
S8CREDGROUND
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
No! You missed what I said. I saw you already took care of the driveshaft with new, and the u-joints are new too.

Your description is a classic typical, case of AXLE joints failing, NOT THE DRIVESHAFT!

Look close underneath at the end of the diff housing, right behind the wheel. You'll see a C shaped part on the end of the axle tube. INSIDE that you'll see the live axle - with a u-joint inside the C. That's there so you can turn the wheels.

It has bearings just like a driveshaft's joint. Those bearings are in pressed in bearing caps - you'll see them. Those caps have a tendency to come loose, eventually falling out. If you see signs of rust on or around them, like powdered steel is coming out and rusting, then the needle bearings inside are failing.

Not fixing it will soon end in it self destructing and doing more damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fire239 View Post
But the problem went away when the driveshaft was removed. The axle u-joints turn whether there is a driveshaft in place or not. If the vibes went away when the driveshaft was taken out, I dont see how the axle u-joints could be it?
@rrich, I did not know there were joints on the end of the driveshaft when I had made that response. Thank you for the detailed response on where they are and what to look for. As I had stated before, I haven't had this vehicle in my possession for very long, so I still need to get under it and look around and tinker with things. I will take a look at those joints you're talking about this evening.

But, at the same time...I agree with Gorving3 and fire239...Wouldn't this vibe still be there if/when the front driveshaft is removed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelby427 View Post
Well, from someone who's worked the service end of dealerships for a long long time, use the lawyer bit as a last resort. First off it's going to cost you bucks to get something your deserve for free.

Here's my advice. Skip the Service Director, and go straight to the General Manager.
Make an appointment, calmly explain the situation, what has been done( especially the bit about the tires you had to buy to "fix" the problem), then ask him to have the situation looked into, and request that the Chrysler Zone Rep get involved.

Ask that a time be set up for the GM, Zone Rep, SD, and you can all meet and go over the problem, what's been attempted repair wise, etc.

The Zone Rep has the authority to have the vehicle taken to another shop if yours can't correct the problem. Your dealer will be back charged for the repairs. My shop did this multiple times on things just like this on cars involved in Lemon Law problems at other shops.
If at any time you start getting flack from anyone at the dealer, calmly mention that you'll be more then happy to contact the local TV station's Consumer Affairs Investigation Department, and mention the person who does the reporting.

The LAST thing they want is a news crew showing up and broadcasting negative news about them.


Sometimes you gotta work to get what you deserve, but knowing how to work the situation is something most customers don't know how to do, and dealers know it.
@Shelby427, This is very good info and is what I was looking for.
As for the lawyer aspect, my wife works with the guy. He got his degree and passed the bar or whatever, but then decided to get another degree in something else. So, he doesn't "practice", but he is just advising us.

I also had contacted JEEP and they assigned me a case manager, who looked into the issue. He stated they can not get involved due to it being a sales issue and that the factory warranty has run out. He also stated getting in contact with the GM.

This is our next step. Wish us luck.
05-10-2011 08:32 AM
rrich Good point, but without the DS it may not be transmitting the vibration as much.

What does it cost to LOOK?
05-10-2011 07:19 AM
fire239
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
No! You missed what I said. I saw you already took care of the driveshaft with new, and the u-joints are new too.

Your description is a classic typical, case of AXLE joints failing, NOT THE DRIVESHAFT!

Look close underneath at the end of the diff housing, right behind the wheel. You'll see a C shaped part on the end of the axle tube. INSIDE that you'll see the live axle - with a u-joint inside the C. That's there so you can turn the wheels.

It has bearings just like a driveshaft's joint. Those bearings are in pressed in bearing caps - you'll see them. Those caps have a tendency to come loose, eventually falling out. If you see signs of rust on or around them, like powdered steel is coming out and rusting, then the needle bearings inside are failing.

Not fixing it will soon end in it self destructing and doing more damage.

But the problem went away when the driveshaft was removed. The axle u-joints turn whether there is a driveshaft in place or not. If the vibes went away when the driveshaft was taken out, I dont see how the axle u-joints could be it?
05-10-2011 07:07 AM
Shelby427 Well, from someone who's worked the service end of dealerships for a long long time, use the lawyer bit as a last resort. First off it's going to cost you bucks to get something your deserve for free.

Here's my advice. Skip the Service Director, and go straight to the General Manager.
Make an appointment, calmly explain the situation, what has been done( especially the bit about the tires you had to buy to "fix" the problem), then ask him to have the situation looked into, and request that the Chrysler Zone Rep get involved.

Ask that a time be set up for the GM, Zone Rep, SD, and you can all meet and go over the problem, what's been attempted repair wise, etc.

The Zone Rep has the authority to have the vehicle taken to another shop if yours can't correct the problem. Your dealer will be back charged for the repairs. My shop did this multiple times on things just like this on cars involved in Lemon Law problems at other shops.
If at any time you start getting flack from anyone at the dealer, calmly mention that you'll be more then happy to contact the local TV station's Consumer Affairs Investigation Department, and mention the person who does the reporting.

The LAST thing they want is a news crew showing up and broadcasting negative news about them.


Sometimes you gotta work to get what you deserve, but knowing how to work the situation is something most customers don't know how to do, and dealers know it.
05-10-2011 06:40 AM
rrich No! You missed what I said. I saw you already took care of the driveshaft with new, and the u-joints are new too.

Your description is a classic typical, case of AXLE joints failing, NOT THE DRIVESHAFT!

Look close underneath at the end of the diff housing, right behind the wheel. You'll see a C shaped part on the end of the axle tube. INSIDE that you'll see the live axle - with a u-joint inside the C. That's there so you can turn the wheels.

It has bearings just like a driveshaft's joint. Those bearings are in pressed in bearing caps - you'll see them. Those caps have a tendency to come loose, eventually falling out. If you see signs of rust on or around them, like powdered steel is coming out and rusting, then the needle bearings inside are failing.

Not fixing it will soon end in it self destructing and doing more damage.
05-10-2011 06:08 AM
A1bertmarkovski i had a horror story with a dealer too...

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/fun-time-78621.html
05-10-2011 05:56 AM
S8CREDGROUND
Quote:
Originally Posted by fire239 View Post
I had the same thing happen to me with the vibration and play in the output shaft. Replaced the bearings and seals in a couple of hours by myself. The NP231 is a simple transfer case and the rebuild kit with bearings, seals, etc was like 80-100 bucks IIRC.
@fire239, Thanks for the reply. I have found the rebuild kits here and there. So, that is an option that I'm keeping open.
05-07-2011 10:36 AM
fire239 I had the same thing happen to me with the vibration and play in the output shaft. Replaced the bearings and seals in a couple of hours by myself. The NP231 is a simple transfer case and the rebuild kit with bearings, seals, etc was like 80-100 bucks IIRC.
05-07-2011 10:11 AM
S8CREDGROUND Shelby427, Thanks for your detailed response!

I most likely will be taking it to another dealer...but here's the dilemma. I bought this Jeep used at a Big Name dealer that also has a Jeep center. They offer a 1000mi/1mo Engine/Trans/Drivetrain warranty, so I was trying to get them to fix it under their warranty. I knew the vibe was there when I bought it, but the Used Sales Manager assured me that if there was a problem beyond the tires (original tires on jeep) that they would take care of it.

An update for all...

The Service Director at the Jeep Dealer has now come to the conclusion that the vibration is the tires. (I just got brand new GY Wrangler Duratracs on it about 2 weeks ago)

It's funny, I asked the Director..."then how comes when you guys removed the drive shaft the vibration went away?" He stated he didn't know. I told him to have his tech's take the shaft out and test drive it again and he would see that the vibration would go away. He said "I'll look into it". A few hours later, I call back and ask if he did just that, and he stated he just got back and the vibration didn't go away! What a Liar!!!!! I know darn well the jeep rode smooth when that drive shaft was out!!!

The Service Director told me to come get the jeep that they were done with it! Oh, and they are still stating that it was and is the tires! LOL

So, I now have a call into JEEP, and have sought legal advice from a lawyer. Since this is all is pending, I will not state anything more about this, until it is resolved.

Again, Thank you to all that have read what I've written here and commented. Your help and fellowship is greatly appreciated!!!
05-06-2011 11:41 AM
Shelby427 Well lets look at it this way. Both old and new drive shafts, and you have the vibration.
Drive shaft removed vibration goes away. Ditto vibration is not affected by your U joints and other still moving parts when the drive shaft is removed, and you are going down the road, so they are not suspect.

Now then at the transfer case output shaft you have play and a leak.
Two items that should not be there.

Follow me on this. The output shaft is moving when it shouldn't be. Most likely the bearing supporting it is bad, allowing the shaft to move. The shaft is moving enough that the seal can't do it's job properly so you see the leakage.

Now that output shaft is spinning but with the drive shaft removed the load has been removed from it. It's not moving as much now. No vibration/noise felt.

Install the drive shaft back in place, the output shaft is now loaded, and wiggling all over the place. The drive shaft is multiplying this movement and acting like a whip, rotating not in a perfect circle, but in more of a wobbly oval. Vibration.

That drive shaft/ output shaft wobble gets worse the faster it goes. The vibration/noise moves down the drive shaft to the front axle, and just like a tuning fork it's carrying the vibration/noise through the front axle, into the attached suspension components and even the steering components. It continues up the steering column to the steering wheel. Now you are feeling the vibration/noise in the vehicle and the steering wheel.

It's leverage and harmonics in play. Simple way to explain it. Take a stick 1 foot long and hold it in your hand. Wack the side of the stick, at the other end, with a hammer. You get one jar from the impact.

Now take a 5 foot long stick and hold it in your hand. Have someone wack the side of the stick at the other end. If it doesn't rip out of your hand, you are going to feel the vibration of the impact in your hand, up your arm, into your shoulder.

Same thing is going on with your Jeep. Except the stick is the drive shaft, and the wack is the output shaft flopping around against it.


Go back to the tech who found the wobbly output shaft and leaky seal. He knows what he is doing. The other shop does not as they are treating symptoms instead of the cause.


p.s. the vibration is a symptom. The cause as stated is at the output shaft/bearing. The now damaged seal is just the first thing in the chain to be damaged, continued driving with this vibration is still working on everything attached to it, slowly beating it till the next thing fails.

If this was mine, the shop would be tearing down the transfer case, replacing the seals and bearings, inspecting the internal components for damage. Replacing the drive shaft, and also inspecting the front axle for damage to the yoke, pinion and bearings, etc., as long as this has been going on.
05-05-2011 06:05 AM
S8CREDGROUND Ken1024, Thanks, I doubt this is the issue, but I will be putting new rotors, pads, drums and shoes on it here in the near future, so I'll be sure to look.

Gorving3, Thanks, I am kinda leaning the direction you're going with your question...with that said, The drive shaft is the "missing link" per se. It's weird how vehicles can transfer vibe/pressure/etc. throughout the vehicle. So, it might be possible that there is an issue with the front axle and the drive shaft is transfering the vibe to a more centralized location, ie the transfer case (at which point...I'm feeling it).

Thank you everyone for your input, it is greatly appreciated!
05-04-2011 10:22 PM
Gorving3
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
I'd check the axle u-joints in the front end - typical symptom before they destroy themselves. Look closely at them, if they show signs of rust particles on them or loose bearing caps, replace them.
If it were the axle u-joints wouldn't the vibration still be there whether the front drive shaft was installed or removed since they spin any time the front tires are turning?
05-04-2011 09:28 PM
Ken1024 Friend of my had a Camero that did the same thing when he hit about 55. His turned out to a small flat washer/shim missing from behind one side of one brake pad, if I remember correctly. Been 10+ years ago, but I think that was where it was missing from, perhaps from the caliper. Maybe someone more familiar with that are a can add clarity. Anyway his was evident that it was coming from the front end. Good luck!
05-04-2011 09:12 PM
S8CREDGROUND Fire239, Thanks, that answers that question.

rrich, Thanks, the driveshaft and u-joints plus (I don't know the name of it) that other joint that connects to the joint on the front of the transfer case are all new. The drive shaft is Mopar and I could read that the joints were Spicer. Truthfully, I haven't even had it in my possession long enough to even get a good look at everything!

computeruser, Thanks, I agree. I am hoping that the dealer will actually take those into consideration while "trying" to fix the "problem".

mcppat, Thanks, I bought it at Darcars Toyota in Silver Springs...but...right behind them is the Jeep Dealer...and that is who has been looking at it. So, hopefully the Techs at the Darcars Jeep Service know what they are doing. The other place I was talking about that I took the Jeep to was Adams Jeep in Aberdeen, MD. They looked at it, Test drove it, put it up on a lift and stated that the drive shaft was loose and that there was a possibility that the transfer case shaft bearing could be bad and that it was most likely the problem. And, best of all, they didn't charge me to do all that. But of course...the only way to tell, (at least to my knowledge) is to open up the TC.

My wife and I have actually talked about taking it back to Adams and have them fix the issue and then send the bill to Darcars. Most likely they won't pay it...but that's what lawyers are for!!!

Thank you all for your posts and insight. I will use some of this info tomorrow when I'm talking with the Service Director.
05-04-2011 08:40 PM
mcppat Did you purchase the Wrangler from a Jeep dealer? If not you may want to take it to a dealer to have a factory certified service tech take a look at her. If they can find the problem you should be able to get the dealership you've been working with to cover the repair made by actual jeep service techs. My Father-in-Law had a similar problem with an Audi he bought at a "Used Car Super Store" (I believe there's one in Whitemarsh actually). The service techs where he bought it couldn't figure the problem out but the Audi techs were able to fix it. He made enough noise that the SD agreed to cover the repairs made by Audi since his people couldn't figure it out.

Just a suggestion.
05-04-2011 08:05 PM
computeruser
Quote:
Originally Posted by S8CREDGROUND View Post
Also, it's a brand spankin new drive shaft...so I doubt it would be the problem.
I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that it being new makes it perfectly balanced.

Look at pinion bearings, t'case output shaft bearing, front axle joints, as others suggested.
05-04-2011 08:02 PM
rrich I'd check the axle u-joints in the front end - typical symptom before they destroy themselves. Look closely at them, if they show signs of rust particles on them or loose bearing caps, replace them.
05-04-2011 07:55 PM
fire239 The bearing could be bad on the output shaft of the transfer case. That will definitely cause excessive play in the front driveshaft.
05-04-2011 07:52 PM
S8CREDGROUND Thanks Duramaxxed...

I thought of that too. But I doubt I could get them to do that. LOL Also, it's a brand spankin new drive shaft...so I doubt it would be the problem. I know for work I have a contact for driveshafts...so if it comes down to it...I'll take it myself and get it checked.

But that leads me to the question about the wiggle/play in the driveshaft. Should it move/wiggle (even just a little)? Now I'm not talking about rotation...but about up/down or side to side motion.
05-04-2011 07:25 PM
Duramaxxed The Driveshaft may not be Balanced Correctly for that High of a Speed.

If you can, have them Send it Out to a Driveshaft Shop and have them Check the Balance of it at all Speeds, mainly the RPM Equivalent of your Jeep @ 65mph and Faster.
05-04-2011 07:13 PM
S8CREDGROUND
Newb's having problems with new (used) Jeep & Dealer

My wife and I just bought a 2006 TJ Sport Auto (our first Jeep). Stock as stock can be and you can tell this thing has never been off road. It's very clean in and out! Also has a clean Carfax.

Here's where the problem begins...

There was a hell of a vibration throughout the vehicle at speeds above 55 (as far as we can tell...not the DW). Dealer where we bought it stated there were flat spots on the tires...so we bought $1019 worth of Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac tires (5 each). Factory spec was 30x9.5R15, and we upped it to 31x10.5R15. A lot of the vibration went away...

With that said...It has a small but annoying vibration at around 65+. It doesn't matter if you are in neutral, up hill, down hill, or whatever...its there and it's annoying. You feel it as if it is all over the Jeep. As you increase speed above 65 you will also start to notice the vibration in the steering wheel. It seems to get worse the faster you go.

We decided to take it to another dealer that a lot of our friends suggested us to take it to and the tech stated there could be a bad bearing in the transfer case (Input shaft bearing I think it was called). He showed us how the driveshaft shook and moved a little and said that that shouldn't do that. Plus there was a lot of reddish fluid on the trans skid plate and the underbody of the cabin.

We then took it back to where we bought it (because it's under their small warranty) and showed them the paperwork from the other place and they then proceeded to think it was the front driveshaft. They removed the front driveshaft and asked us to test drive it. Vibration went away!!! Well, they decided to order a new front drive shaft and its joints. As soon as they installed it...guess what...the vibration was back.

Now we've gotten the Service Director involved and the Jeep has been sitting at the Dealer since Monday and they can't figure out what is wrong with it! The SD stated that he had two different Tech's look at it and neither could find anything wrong with it. He stated he will drive it tomorrow.

We've tried to educate ourselves from forums, google and other searches but not really finding an answer. Even though we truly think the problem is most likely the transfer case (or something in it). And we still have to deal with the dealer and get them to fix it.

Has anyone here experienced this issue before? Anybody have any suggestions to what we can do so that we may enjoy our Jeep once and for all?

Sorry for this being so long...we were trying to be as descriptive as possible, yet keep the story short. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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