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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-07-2007 05:08 PM
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09-07-2007 09:04 AM
sgnellett
Quote:
Originally Posted by hutchman View Post
Not totally true.......General Motors used to have separate engines for Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadilac. Their transmissions were similar internally but BOP&C had a different bolt pattern than Chevrolet. Insturmentation was different. Heater controls were different. They were different cars with completely different personalities.

Ford and Chrysler products were not as separate as GM was. They did use the same engines and transmissions between the lines, but there was quite a bit of difference between the body lines.

This started to change in the late 70s. About 1977, Pontiac ran out of engines late in the model year and used some Chevrolet engines to finish the year. After the owners found out they had gotten Chevy engines in their Pontiacs, there was hell to pay. I believe there was a class action law suit over this.

It became necessary, for economic reasons, to start using Buick V6s in all the other lines just as Chevrolet V8s were turned into "corporate v8s." The last Pontiac V8 was built in 1981 as the turbo charged 301 in the Trans Am. The last real V8 Pontiac was a 1979 Trans Am with a 4 speed. They only had 10,000 V8s that year so they all went into 4 speed cars. I believe it was in 77, but 78 for sure, some TAs came with a 403 when an auto was ordered. This was an Oldsmobile engine.

It was at this time when GM really started to go downhill. The loss of identity was huge for each of the GM marques. The corporate attitude seemed to change to profit only over all else. Too bad their attitude did not include quality.........things might have turned out different if it had.

FWIW.......
It's called "badge engineering" and Chrysler=DCX has resisted it for a long time, especially where the Jeep line was concerned, but they did so to the detriment of the brand, not just to preserve it, as was the stated goal. The time and effort that went into engineering the all new Commander could have been better used elsewhere if they had started with the existing Durango/Aspen platform, which is pretty capable in it's own right. Imangine if, instead of reinventing a 3 row SUV, all that engineering had gone into developing a new suspension for it and working on getting a new version of the Cummins 4BT diesel engine! A real useful diesel that could tow damn near anything, in a vehicle big enough to utilize it! I like the idea of the CRD Grand Cherokee, but it is purely a marketing/mileage gimmick. I don't think there is any significant gain in towing capacity, only 200 lbs over the Hemi, and you have to step up to the Limited if you even want a shot at the CRD! How about the guy living on more of a budget who would like to take his whole family out to the trails, towing his Wrangler, and not have to wory about getting his fancy-shmancy leather seats and carpets all muddy?

Don't even get me started about why Jeep wont make a vinyl floor standard on a Wrangler! It's like carpeting your bathtub! "But there is a drain underneath the carpet!" Yes, but you still have wet, stinky carpet on top of the drain!

Hopefully the new management at Chrysler will see fit to make some of the needed changes at Jeep, including giving them a truck or two, including a real, full size, tow capable, work capable SUV, even if Dodge won't build it! Jeep could do it and sell it as a niche vehicle! My uncle who works for Jeep on the prototype team, had a one-off Dodge RamCharger built out of the parts bin but based on the last gen Ram and drove it around for a few days, but obviously, it never made it into production! This kind of "badge engineering" could actually do Jeep some good, and might actually save Chrysler!

Think anyone is listening?
09-07-2007 08:26 AM
Walkeraviator Dude i love eagles. My grandfather still drives his 86 amc eagle 4door. I want it so i can make it big and pissed.

And back to Hutches statement about pontiac V-8s... You are right on about the years they started using olds 403's on the autos. My dad and I are about to buy and restore a non-10th anniversary 79 T/A with teh pontiac 400 and a four in the floor. My very very first car that I had before I was even old enough to drive was a 79 firebird esprit. Its my favorite T/A ever.
09-07-2007 05:44 AM
JCS05Rubi Why not?! The old eagles are the shiznit!! They are like a domestic Subaru Baja kinda. Ground clearance, 4x4, and gas mileage!
09-06-2007 10:24 PM
AzTJ God I hope they don't make another Eagle!
09-06-2007 10:14 PM
jjseel Has anyone notice that the new Liberty looks kinda like a Pacer at the hoodline? Jeeps going back to the AMC roots?
09-06-2007 07:54 PM
kg4kpg It probably doesn't happen often, but it sure is fun when I can get a debate started.
09-06-2007 07:19 PM
AzTJ ^^^ Thats exactly what I'm talking about.
09-06-2007 07:15 PM
JCS05Rubi You mean, like when UnderArmour starts putting their name on OUTERWEAR, such as Tshirts, pants, jackets, sweaters? Or how about when UNDERARMOUR puts their name on things such as BACKPACKS and SUNGLASSES and SHOES?

"Brand Identity" is what the public or consumer allows it to be. Consumers will still trade in a Colorado for a Canyon, even if only the grill changed, just because it has GMC on the front, and not a bowtie. You know what? If I was Mr. General Motors, and I could get away with selling the same car, twice, under one name, why the hell not? If people will buy it, why not sell it? It would be different if they tried to hide it, but they will blatenly admit they are the same cars. Hell, the darn mitchell repair manuals list them as pairs. Envoy/Trailblazer, Yukon/Denali/Escalade/Tahoe, Sunfire/Cavalier etc. etc..
09-06-2007 06:57 PM
AzTJ What I meant was;

Tempest - LeMans - GTO <-Same Cars

Charger-Challenger <-Same Cars

Satalite-Road Runner <-Same Cars

Fairlane-Torino <-Same Cars

I said changing a few things, and engines were always different(even between different brands of the same company) I know... but the car or body was used a number of times as different cars.
09-06-2007 06:41 PM
hutchman
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzTJ View Post
.....But in al reality, the "Big Three" have been doing this since the beginning. Using one car, changing a few things and selling it as a "different model" when actually its just a different trim level with a new name.
Not totally true.......General Motors used to have separate engines for Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadilac. Their transmissions were similar internally but BOP&C had a different bolt pattern than Chevrolet. Insturmentation was different. Heater controls were different. They were different cars with completely different personalities.

Ford and Chrysler products were not as separate as GM was. They did use the same engines and transmissions between the lines, but there was quite a bit of difference between the body lines.

This started to change in the late 70s. About 1977, Pontiac ran out of engines late in the model year and used some Chevrolet engines to finish the year. After the owners found out they had gotten Chevy engines in their Pontiacs, there was hell to pay. I believe there was a class action law suit over this.

It became necessary, for economic reasons, to start using Buick V6s in all the other lines just as Chevrolet V8s were turned into "corporate v8s." The last Pontiac V8 was built in 1981 as the turbo charged 301 in the Trans Am. The last real V8 Pontiac was a 1979 Trans Am with a 4 speed. They only had 10,000 V8s that year so they all went into 4 speed cars. I believe it was in 77, but 78 for sure, some TAs came with a 403 when an auto was ordered. This was an Oldsmobile engine.

It was at this time when GM really started to go downhill. The loss of identity was huge for each of the GM marques. The corporate attitude seemed to change to profit only over all else. Too bad their attitude did not include quality.........things might have turned out different if it had.

FWIW.......
09-06-2007 05:43 PM
Walkeraviator ^^^x2 I had some foreign students... the generic term for all SUVs outside the US is Jeep... whether its a bronco or blazer.. its still a jeep.
09-06-2007 05:09 PM
1BLKJP A brand loses it's identity and becomes generic when the masses start referring to it as a general term. Like asking for a Kleenex no matter the brand of tissue it is. Or getting a Coke out of the fridge even if it's a generic soda.

The "Jeep" brand will always stand for Military and off road excellence in America. That's why it's considered one of the top 3 most expensive brands in the market place today.
09-06-2007 02:09 PM
AzTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by kg4kpg View Post
What do you thaink a Dodge version of the Wrangler will look like?
The Trail-Hawk! If produced by Dodge though, it will look more like a Durango than anything.





But in al reality, the "Big Three" have been doing this since the beginning. Using one car, changing a few things and selling it as a "different model" when actually its just a different trim level with a new name.
09-06-2007 01:18 PM
Levinoss
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteyj View Post
Jeep will always have the Wranagler.
.
We can only hope and pray.

~Lev
09-06-2007 01:12 PM
whiteyj I think the big three are creating lines of boxes with one or two specialty vehicles. From the GM side, Oldmobile is no longer and Tahoe & Yukon have replaced the suburban/blazer. Used to be that Pontiac had the poor man's high performance car with Trans Am/Firebird or the Bonneville SST. Not anymore, they are making small econo boxes. Chevrolet has the only HP car in the line up with the Vette.

Think the same is true with Chrysler. While the Durango and Commander are looking the same, Jeep will always have the Wranagler.

My 2 cents.
09-06-2007 12:27 PM
kg4kpg
When does a brand loose its identity???

I have a pile of purchase orders still to be done but just keep thinking about this...
Ford Motor Company has their three big names, Ford, Lincoln and Mercury. GM has GM, Chevrolet, Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac. Chrysler has the Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth and Jeep. Of course, I've always felt Jeep had its own identity until now, with the Compass, Patriot and the new Liberty. The 08 Liberty is almost identical to Nitro, even in looks. It looks like the Commander is based on the Durango platform but I can't say for sure. I'm sure the Grand Cherokee is the next to go, if it hasn't already. What do you thaink a Dodge version of the Wrangler will look like? I'll let the wife get her JK next summer, but I'll stick with my trusty TJ thank you. Maybe when she does, I'll just trade my 4 banger in for an 05 or 06 Rubi.

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