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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-05-2011 11:47 AM
Rubicon2
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericaOverland

I guess I better hurry up and rent a 10X10 room to store as many T-19s and D-20s as I can afford for the Scout, and then when I get a Jeep, do the same thing. I cannot have manuals disappear forever on me because people don't want manuals. That's already happened with everything else out there, just like power locks and windows. It looks like the JKs are the ONLY light vehicles sold in the US without power locks and windows. Thanks guys...

The JK's also have power door locks and windows.
07-05-2011 11:40 AM
KidRock171
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericaOverland

I guess I better hurry up and rent a 10X10 room to store as many T-19s and D-20s as I can afford for the Scout, and then when I get a Jeep, do the same thing. I cannot have manuals disappear forever on me because people don't want manuals. That's already happened with everything else out there, just like power locks and windows. It looks like the JKs are the ONLY light vehicles sold in the US without power locks and windows. Thanks guys...

You just mad cuz I be stylin on you. jk

If I want to shift gears. Which is awesome. I love shifting a manual. I'll do it on my R6 A 6speed transmission stretched over 186 mph and an 20000 rpm tach. I STILL want a manual jeep. But auto is more efficient off road. When I have kids and need a bigger vehicle. I'll buy a manual JKU.
07-04-2011 10:51 PM
Jerry Bransford For those who badmouth auto transmissions because they make wheeling "easier" (your words not mine)... then it's time for you to get rid of your lockers, big tires, 4x4 transfer cases, suspension lifts, Atlas II transfer cases, quick disconnects, etc.. All of them do nothing but make it easier to make it from one end of the trail to the other with fewer issues.
07-04-2011 10:38 PM
GreenJack
Quote:
They're not better. I believe they are easier. Poor wording my bad.
Yes easier. And staying on-road is even easier as is staying home watching tv, but is that the point?

Can't stand slush boxes, but they are easier...

...
07-04-2011 09:32 PM
AmericaOverland
Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
Thanks for helping break it down a little more descriptive for me, I can now see some of the the advantages that an auto can have. I guess when I do my engine swap I'll go ahead and budget for a good auto trans swap at the same time.

I guess I better hurry up and rent a 10X10 room to store as many T-19s and D-20s as I can afford for the Scout, and then when I get a Jeep, do the same thing. I cannot have manuals disappear forever on me because people don't want manuals. That's already happened with everything else out there, just like power locks and windows. It looks like the JKs are the ONLY light vehicles sold in the US without power locks and windows. Thanks guys...

07-04-2011 05:43 PM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
There are a few reasons I prefer an automatic after having converted to one from a 5-speed in my previous TJ (my current TJ came with an automatic).

The reasons all come from the same magic component that gives the automatic its charm, its torque converter. Number one is the torque converter gives you more low-end torque than you'll get with a manual transmission. Up to 2-3X more low-end torque while you are trying to scoot up an obstacle. There were three rock climbs on the same trail that required I use my winch to get up with my 5-speed. Once I installed the automatic, I was able to scoot right up those same three obstacles without problem. Same 35" tires, same 4.88 gearing, same front and rear lockers.

Number two is the torque converter gives you an infinitely low 1st gear ratio and an infinitely high crawl ratio. You can't simply compare the raw numbers of the 1st ratios between the automatic and manual to tell me I'm full of it. Why? Again, due to the magic of the torque converter. With a stick, you can only crawl as slow as the gears will let you. Any slower you have to step on the clutch or you'll stall the engine. With the automatic, however, all you have to do to crawl slower than the 1st gear ratio says is to give it some brake... you can go from 0 mph up to whatever by just modulating the brake, all the while the engine is happily not stalling due to that torque converter doing its thing.

All that is why you have that infinitely high crawl ratio... the torque converter is about as close to a magical device as I've seen on a Jeep.

5-speeds may be more fun for some around town and on dirt roads but on the rocks or an extremely difficult trail, an automatic is real tough to beat. Converting my TJ from its factory 5-speed to the automatic transformed it into something that would have cost me a whole bunch of $$$$$ to get somewhat similar results with its previous manual transmission.

One last comment... go to where the pro-level competitors compete and you'll find most are now running automatics. The Jeep for the King of the Hammers event that Blaine (Black Magic Brakes) and I helped build had an automatic transmission. The Jeep didn't come with the automatic but it sure had an automatic by the time we were done with it and it was on the course.

Yep that happened with my then recently installed automatic transmission. The same type of transmission some don't think can do compression braking.
Thanks for helping break it down a little more descriptive for me, I can now see some of the the advantages that an auto can have. I guess when I do my engine swap I'll go ahead and budget for a good auto trans swap at the same time.
07-04-2011 05:37 PM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
Thanks for getting my point. There are far too many variables to make a pronouncement that manuals have better engine braking and that the engine automatically picks the correct speed for you on steep descents.

This horse has been beaten into several cases of Elmer's, but I've seen Jerry B on here almost roll his rig in a very bad way on a steep descent because he was too slow for the steepness of the obstacle. As soon as the front dropped over the down side of the ledge, the back end came up and fell over sideways and that hill is not any place you would ever want to be sideways on.

I went down in front of him and I go down it in second gear with one foot on the brake and one on the throttle. When the back comes up, I bump the gas, pull the back down, let it settle and back off the throttle again. No drama at all.

There are many folks with manuals who follow me down hills that comment that their manuals in 1st gear are faster than my auto in 1st gear and they are geared correctly.

Both transmissions need to be driven, no more, no less.
Thanks for clearing things up for me a bit, I can definitely picture in my head using the throttle to pull my back end back down, the same way if I was to wheely a sport bike to far back and about to loose it I could tap the back brake to bring the front end back down...
07-04-2011 05:26 PM
Jerry Bransford There are a few reasons I prefer an automatic after having converted to one from a 5-speed in my previous TJ (my current TJ came with an automatic).

The reasons all come from the same magic component that gives the automatic its charm, its torque converter. Number one is the torque converter gives you more low-end torque than you'll get with a manual transmission. Up to 2-3X more low-end torque while you are trying to scoot up an obstacle. There were three rock climbs on the same trail that required I use my winch to get up with my 5-speed. Once I installed the automatic, I was able to scoot right up those same three obstacles without problem. Same 35" tires, same 4.88 gearing, same front and rear lockers.

Number two is the torque converter gives you an infinitely low 1st gear ratio and an infinitely high crawl ratio. You can't simply compare the raw numbers of the 1st ratios between the automatic and manual to tell me I'm full of it. Why? Again, due to the magic of the torque converter. With a stick, you can only crawl as slow as the gears will let you. Any slower you have to step on the clutch or you'll stall the engine. With the automatic, however, all you have to do to crawl slower than the 1st gear ratio says is to give it some brake... you can go from 0 mph up to whatever by just modulating the brake, all the while the engine is happily not stalling due to that torque converter doing its thing.

All that is why you have that infinitely high crawl ratio... the torque converter is about as close to a magical device as I've seen on a Jeep.

5-speeds may be more fun for some around town and on dirt roads but on the rocks or an extremely difficult trail, an automatic is real tough to beat. Converting my TJ from its factory 5-speed to the automatic transformed it into something that would have cost me a whole bunch of $$$$$ to get somewhat similar results with its previous manual transmission.

One last comment... go to where the pro-level competitors compete and you'll find most are now running automatics. The Jeep for the King of the Hammers event that Blaine (Black Magic Brakes) and I helped build had an automatic transmission. The Jeep didn't come with the automatic but it sure had an automatic by the time we were done with it and it was on the course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
I've seen Jerry B on here almost roll his rig in a very bad way on a steep descent because he was too slow for the steepness of the obstacle. As soon as the front dropped over the down side of the ledge, the back end came up and fell over sideways and that hill is not any place you would ever want to be sideways on.
Yep that happened with my then recently installed automatic transmission. The same type of transmission some don't think can do compression braking.
07-04-2011 05:21 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
There are a lot of different factors that come into play for both trans types, gearing, lockers vs limited slip, engine braking, what kind of terrain you're on, how fast you want to go, how strong your parts are and how much abuse they can take, and it could get even more complicated for example by running rear steer, or cut brakes... add in a twin stick transfer case and all of a sudden you've got levers everywhere...
Thanks for getting my point. There are far too many variables to make a pronouncement that manuals have better engine braking and that the engine automatically picks the correct speed for you on steep descents.

This horse has been beaten into several cases of Elmer's, but I've seen Jerry B on here almost roll his rig in a very bad way on a steep descent because he was too slow for the steepness of the obstacle. As soon as the front dropped over the down side of the ledge, the back end came up and fell over sideways and that hill is not any place you would ever want to be sideways on.

I went down in front of him and I go down it in second gear with one foot on the brake and one on the throttle. When the back comes up, I bump the gas, pull the back down, let it settle and back off the throttle again. No drama at all.

There are many folks with manuals who follow me down hills that comment that their manuals in 1st gear are faster than my auto in 1st gear and they are geared correctly.

Both transmissions need to be driven, no more, no less.
07-04-2011 01:09 PM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerg View Post
If you have both then you would know.

I do...and i love my auto better...it really comes down to preference.
I guess if I had one of each that was set up the same way to be able to do a back to back run on the same obstacles, I might also choose an auto over a manual. I'd have to give it the taste test for myself to be able to see which one I perfered. I was kinda hoping someone with experience could shine a little more light on the subject and brake it down in a technical way with some examples, I wasn't trying to stir up the pot. The reason I ask is because I eventually plan on doing an engine swap into my TJ, and I had considered going with an auto trans swap at the same time, but I've also considered sticking with my 5 speed and using an adapter for the new engine.
07-04-2011 12:50 PM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
With a manual, about all you have to master is the ability to recognize when it's about to stall out and when to push in the clutch.

To do the same with an auto, just ease off the throttle.

As in trap and skeet which are shotgun sports, skeet is harder to learn like a novice struggles with the manual. As you get the hang of it though, then it's pretty much like driving a tractor.

The auto is easier to learn like hitting the targets in trap, but very difficult to master. Most think that with an auto, you plant your left foot on the dead pedal and just use the throttle. Not much is further from reality.
There are a lot of different factors that come into play for both trans types, gearing, lockers vs limited slip, engine braking, what kind of terrain you're on, how fast you want to go, how strong your parts are and how much abuse they can take, and it could get even more complicated for example by running rear steer, or cut brakes... add in a twin stick transfer case and all of a sudden you've got levers everywhere...
07-04-2011 11:58 AM
TJ-Q8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes

Didn't I already tell you that the back of the XJ transmissions is clocked lower than the TJ transmissions and all you have to do is redrill the bolt pattern?
Yes you did and thank you. But i also have a prob inside the trans where the reverse is very hard to go in an it grinds cpnstantly. Plus 1st pop out alot causing a huge pop thats scares the crap out of me . Also to top it off the trans mout bolts where there is 4 bolts one of the holes is completely stripped. Iam though thinking about the redril but i have to find someone that does a good job here soo i can trust him but thats nearly imppssible. No one would wana work on it.
07-04-2011 11:46 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
I'm not familiar with trap and skeet except that I believe those are terms used for guns and target shooting/competitions... but maybe they are offroading terms I haven't heard about yet? It's been my experience in sand and mud that an auto is easier because it'll shift up before you loose momentum, and with a manual when you push in the clutch to upshift to a higher gear at least in sand it will almost bring you back to a stop.. mud's a little more forgiving, but it'll still make you loose a lot of momentum when you push the clutch in to shift gears... And I have many years experience drag racing with both manuals and autos, and I can tell you that no matter how fast you think you can shift, that sand will still make you look like a novice... Anytime on hard packed surfaces I perfer a stick shift, this is only my opinion, but I feal more connected to my rig, and what it is doing or wants to be doing... and to me a manual is way better for going up hills, and prolly the best at going down really steep descents... engine braking is in my opinion better with a manual than an auto in low gear can achieve...
With a manual, about all you have to master is the ability to recognize when it's about to stall out and when to push in the clutch.

To do the same with an auto, just ease off the throttle.

As in trap and skeet which are shotgun sports, skeet is harder to learn like a novice struggles with the manual. As you get the hang of it though, then it's pretty much like driving a tractor.

The auto is easier to learn like hitting the targets in trap, but very difficult to master. Most think that with an auto, you plant your left foot on the dead pedal and just use the throttle. Not much is further from reality.
07-04-2011 11:42 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ-Q8 View Post
I just did my jeep. Auto to manual. I dont regret it only that the guy pu me a xj ax15 which is makes the front driveshaft to low and rear too high and the tc is touching the skid plate. I wil get a swap in soon. For offroaders with tough terrain and rockcrawling stay with the auto but for me its a dd and weeken warrior on sand soo i didnt think twoce.
Didn't I already tell you that the back of the XJ transmissions is clocked lower than the TJ transmissions and all you have to do is redrill the bolt pattern?
07-04-2011 11:40 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaank View Post
auto is better offroad because you can more easily feather the brake to transfer torque from the spinning wheel to the wheel that has traction. With a clutch involved, your left foot will be operating that pedal, leaving the brake and the gas to your right foot.

Either way, I would never drive an automatic jeep.
Buy some lockers.
07-04-2011 11:39 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
1st gear in an auto is way faster than 1st gear in a manual when you let the vehicle go down hill at the speed it wants to.
Really? So you'd tell us and have us believe that I can take a manual rig with factory 3:07's and 35" tires down a steep descent and that's the speed you want it to go?

Quote:
It's not really that bad if you're in low range, but in an auto you'll find yourself hitting the brakes a lot to slow down, and if you're on a very steep descent that's borderline on endoing your Jeep you want to be really careful hitting the brakes.
This misconception is very prevalent. Here is what is overlooked. When you are on that steep descent, it's only logical that your front and rear axles are locked together though the t-case which has no differentiation. They tires are locked together side to side through the locker.

That means that the engine, wheel brakes, pinion brakes, or you doing the Fred Flintstone thing against one tire will all have the same effect on vehicle speed and traction.

As far as your comment about hitting the brakes to slow down a lot, don't you use the throttle to go up the hill?
07-04-2011 11:29 AM
jaank auto is better offroad because you can more easily feather the brake to transfer torque from the spinning wheel to the wheel that has traction. With a clutch involved, your left foot will be operating that pedal, leaving the brake and the gas to your right foot.

Either way, I would never drive an automatic jeep.
07-04-2011 10:09 AM
TJ-Q8 I just did my jeep. Auto to manual. I dont regret it only that the guy pu me a xj ax15 which is makes the front driveshaft to low and rear too high and the tc is touching the skid plate. I wil get a swap in soon. For offroaders with tough terrain and rockcrawling stay with the auto but for me its a dd and weeken warrior on sand soo i didnt think twoce.
07-04-2011 09:06 AM
thdrduck I can recall several times when I had an automatic and wished I had a standard, but I can't recall even one time I had a standard and wished I had an automatic. I love to shift gears.
07-04-2011 01:07 AM
KidRock171 I would once again like to state my argument was "auto is easier to drive offroad." Very slow speed.
07-04-2011 01:01 AM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidRock171 View Post
^^^ not starting an argument. But if you want rpm control on an auto. There's a 1st and 2nd gear isolation on my auto. Just sayin.
Agree with engine brake whole heartedly.
1st gear in an auto is way faster than 1st gear in a manual when you let the vehicle go down hill at the speed it wants to. It's not really that bad if you're in low range, but in an auto you'll find yourself hitting the brakes a lot to slow down, and if you're on a very steep descent that's borderline on endoing your Jeep you want to be really careful hitting the brakes.
07-04-2011 12:57 AM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidRock171 View Post
They're not better. I believe they are easier. Poor wording my bad.
I can get behind the Auto's are easier statement, but I believe that manuals are more controllable in some situations.. I think both have their advantages, so I guess it would depend on what you would rather have and for what reasons as to weather it would be worth the effort of doing a complete swap or not.
07-04-2011 12:54 AM
KidRock171 ^^^ not starting an argument. But if you want rpm control on an auto. There's a 1st and 2nd gear isolation on my auto. Just sayin.
Agree with engine brake whole heartedly.
07-04-2011 12:52 AM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
They don't do any better or worse than a manual does. It takes more money to play with a manual in the tough rocks, but better belongs to neither transmission.

I drive an auto, prefer them wholeheartedly, but both require good skill levels to navigate well in the rocks.

They are very similar to trap and skeet. One has a very steep learning curve, but once you figure it out, it's pretty easy after that. The other is easier and more forgiving, but requires a fine touch on the throttle and brake to keep the tires at the limit of adhesion.
I'm not familiar with trap and skeet except that I believe those are terms used for guns and target shooting/competitions... but maybe they are offroading terms I haven't heard about yet? It's been my experience in sand and mud that an auto is easier because it'll shift up before you loose momentum, and with a manual when you push in the clutch to upshift to a higher gear at least in sand it will almost bring you back to a stop.. mud's a little more forgiving, but it'll still make you loose a lot of momentum when you push the clutch in to shift gears... And I have many years experience drag racing with both manuals and autos, and I can tell you that no matter how fast you think you can shift, that sand will still make you look like a novice... Anytime on hard packed surfaces I perfer a stick shift, this is only my opinion, but I feal more connected to my rig, and what it is doing or wants to be doing... and to me a manual is way better for going up hills, and prolly the best at going down really steep descents... engine braking is in my opinion better with a manual than an auto in low gear can achieve...
07-04-2011 12:52 AM
KidRock171 They're not better. I believe they are easier. Poor wording my bad.
07-04-2011 12:29 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
Why do autos do better on tough trails? What kind of trails? I've had both, but I like autos better for sand and mud, and manuals better for hills and rocks.
They don't do any better or worse than a manual does. It takes more money to play with a manual in the tough rocks, but better belongs to neither transmission.

I drive an auto, prefer them wholeheartedly, but both require good skill levels to navigate well in the rocks.

They are very similar to trap and skeet. One has a very steep learning curve, but once you figure it out, it's pretty easy after that. The other is easier and more forgiving, but requires a fine touch on the throttle and brake to keep the tires at the limit of adhesion.
07-03-2011 11:04 PM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidRock171 View Post
I wish I had a manual to. Just for nostalgia. But autos off road better. So that's what I got. Cuz that's what it's for. My jeep at least.
Why do autos off road better? In what kind of conditions beside really soft sand, or really gooey mud?
07-03-2011 09:53 PM
KidRock171 I wish I had a manual to. Just for nostalgia. But autos off road better. So that's what I got. Cuz that's what it's for. My jeep at least.
07-03-2011 09:10 PM
AmericaOverland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Provelogear View Post
Where Jerry wheels is mostly bad rocks. While he did well with the stick he quickly found out how much more control he had with an auto in the rocks after he did the swap.

That's true, but it's not what I do. I cannot bear to tear up something so classic like a Jeep or a Scout... Even though you could treat it so carefully and articulate slowly. That's just too much money gone too fast for me. What about the original purpose of the Jeep? Using a manual through difficult terrain under enemy fire... Where's the challenge otherwise?



07-03-2011 08:58 PM
necromancer_tat
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidRock171 View Post
3 pedals. 2 feet. Off camber situation = s.j.c.s.
One of the guy's I wheel with uses this in the rocks, it works really well for him using a 5 speed. Rubicon Express Hand Throttle - Trail Gear & Tools I rode with him on one section of trail and liked how it worked. I just let my Jeep idle and put it in what ever gear I think I'll need depending on what I'm wheeling on, then I just use my feet for the brake and the clutch, I might purchase a hand throttle though eventually.
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