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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-26-2014 09:13 AM
FingerTight
Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
At idle? At speed? At a certain rpm? Do you feel it in the steering? Is it all the time? Is it easy to replicate? How violent is the vibration?
Yes, more info needed! Might want to start your own thread. I noticed on my 2014 I can really feel the vacuum pump when it kicks on
12-25-2014 09:34 PM
planman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny321 View Post
My engine is vibrating and making my whole jeep vibrate what could cause that any info would be nice 2014 jk rubicon 2 door no lift everything stock
At idle? At speed? At a certain rpm? Do you feel it in the steering? Is it all the time? Is it easy to replicate?

How violent is the vibration?
12-25-2014 04:39 PM
Kenny321 My engine is vibrating and making my whole jeep vibrate what could cause that any info would be nice 2014 jk rubicon 2 door no lift everything stock
12-12-2014 06:42 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonathan View Post
I have a 1990 Jeep YJ Wrangler. A rather large tree fell on the hood and damage is quite extensive. I have repaired most of the damage. My question is the drivers side front tire is considerably cantered in at the top. What would usually bend to cause this condition. I have jacked it up and spin the tire and there is no wobble. runs straight. any ideas would be appreciated Thank you
Axle. have it aligned. If the axle tube is bent, both tires should show negative camber.
12-12-2014 05:48 PM
jdonathan I have a 1990 Jeep YJ Wrangler. A rather large tree fell on the hood and damage is quite extensive. I have repaired most of the damage. My question is the drivers side front tire is considerably cantered in at the top. What would usually bend to cause this condition.
I have jacked it up and spin the tire and there is no wobble. runs straight.
any ideas would be appreciated
Thank you
11-01-2014 10:46 PM
kjeeper10 People with multiple DW episodes can develop steering box issues. You mentioned flex or play in the sector shaft. I would bring focus to the steering box.
11-01-2014 08:38 PM
Kiddmen57 All the rubber bushings look new too....
11-01-2014 08:35 PM
Kiddmen57 Pretty much. DW'd then to tire shop for balance and rotate. Home and went through the checklist. Found slight play in drag link ends and upper driver ballpoint had visible vertical movement. All other TREs were solid and all bolts checked out good.

Haven't done alignment yet for reasons stated earlier.

A couple DW episodes later including one after installing a new drag link and going through the checklist note the tie rod ends are now seemingly loose. Track bar still torqued and re-checked holes- no sign whatsoever of ovaling.

I know the dampener is toast but is just a bandaid. Sector shaft appears to have some flex in it, hard to tell by eye. There is a clunk though from it when going back and forth. Thus new tie rod, Ball joints, and adding a sector shaft brace and compatible track bar.

Once I'm done with those items I'll get an alignment and have the tires balanced again just for good measure.
11-01-2014 06:42 PM
planman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddmen57 View Post
So I am just now experiencing the horrors of DW. I have just under 20K on my 2013 JKUR and 15k since I did my AEV 3.5 lift. I followed all the proper setup procedures (torquing under load etc) and the jeep has been a dream to drive since. That is until this week when I hit a construction plate in the road and went into full on DW, first time it ever happened. Had to stop in the road and continue. Happened twice more before I got home. Found this article and checked the front end out. A bit of history...I grease the chassis/ driveline components, rotate tires, check major component torques, and change oil every 3K miles. As I went through the front end I noted that the drag link TREs were looking a bit worn and the upper driver balljoint has a bit of vertical play (visually able to see it). So I ordered a new drag link. This did not solve the issue and I had a DW episode on my test drive (same initial DW construction plate). So I went over everything again, my TB holes are not ovaled, the bolt hasn't moved since originally installed (yes i used 9/16 upgrades on the TB). Now my mind is going crazy. The TREs on the tie rod seem worn out now, I still have a clunk in the drag link (brand new Synergy) which I think might be the sector shaft and still don't have a definitive solution. Again, my track bar has been 100% fine every time i've checked it. Now, I did not yet check alignment, tires were balanced immediately after the first DW day and rotated as well. So now my plan is new ball joints, new synergy tie rod, track bar, track bar and sector arm brace, fox ATS stabilizer (my OME blew with the first DW episode) and after all that an alignment and another tire balancing. I Just have this sickness in my gut that makes me think it'll still be there after all this and $1600 in new parts and alignment. 2013 JKUR with AEV 3.5 SC (with geo correcting brackets) and BFG AT 315/70's on stock wheels with 1.5 spidertrax spacers (also torque checked every tire rotation - never one loose). Im just really hoping that replacing/ upgrading all the steering components and such will fix this as I never did find one smoking gun, but a couple minor possibly worn parts.
Did you perform the comprehensive inspection checklist in post number two of this thread, all in one sitting?
11-01-2014 06:20 PM
Kiddmen57 So I am just now experiencing the horrors of DW. I have just under 20K on my 2013 JKUR and 15k since I did my AEV 3.5 lift. I followed all the proper setup procedures (torquing under load etc) and the jeep has been a dream to drive since. That is until this week when I hit a construction plate in the road and went into full on DW, first time it ever happened. Had to stop in the road and continue. Happened twice more before I got home. Found this article and checked the front end out.

A bit of history...I grease the chassis/ driveline components, rotate tires, check major component torques, and change oil every 3K miles. As I went through the front end I noted that the drag link TREs were looking a bit worn and the upper driver balljoint has a bit of vertical play (visually able to see it). So I ordered a new drag link. This did not solve the issue and I had a DW episode on my test drive (same initial DW construction plate). So I went over everything again, my TB holes are not ovaled, the bolt hasn't moved since originally installed (yes i used 9/16 upgrades on the TB). Now my mind is going crazy. The TREs on the tie rod seem worn out now, I still have a clunk in the drag link (brand new Synergy) which I think might be the sector shaft and still don't have a definitive solution. Again, my track bar has been 100% fine every time i've checked it.

Now, I did not yet check alignment, tires were balanced immediately after the first DW day and rotated as well. So now my plan is new ball joints, new synergy tie rod, track bar, track bar and sector arm brace, fox ATS stabilizer (my OME blew with the first DW episode) and after all that an alignment and another tire balancing.

I Just have this sickness in my gut that makes me think it'll still be there after all this and $1600 in new parts and alignment.

2013 JKUR with AEV 3.5 SC (with geo correcting brackets) and BFG AT 315/70's on stock wheels with 1.5 spidertrax spacers (also torque checked every tire rotation - never one loose).

Im just really hoping that replacing/ upgrading all the steering components and such will fix this as I never did find one smoking gun, but a couple minor possibly worn parts.
09-04-2014 02:49 PM
ASE_MasterTech A mechanics take on "Death Wobble"

The kingpin axis inherent in every coil spring steerable solid live axle that I'm aware of, due to the nature of the available geometry, lends itself to a tire scrub radius prone to perpetuating wheel oscillation - resulting in 'Death Wobble'.

For lack of a simpler description;
Think of 'Scrub Radius' on a steerable solid axle as the usually calm pair of 800lb gorillas in the room..
Add in loose steering/suspension parts-higher lift/increased angles-larger tires-more rim offset-etc, etc.. now hitting a bump is like poking one of the gorillas, one gets upset-then both get upset-start fighting each other..
I think most can imagine the results of that scenario...

In other words, I don't believe any one of the above are a specific 'reason for' but more so a 'result of', the "geometrically dynamic" limitations inherent to these type suspension/steering systems.

You can't redesign the laws of physics so you'll have to take some bad with the good.
If you want a 'simple to lift-high articulation-solid live axle' like coil spring types, you're gonna have to deal with a negative aspect or two..
However, by keeping steering & suspension components tight, most shouldn't have any issues...
09-03-2014 08:08 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wkdstx View Post
Just installed a RoughCountry 3.5" lift on my 2014 4 door JK. Followed everything in instructions to a tee (I thought). Took it for a test drive, "wa la" Death Wobble. And I mean bad. Slowly drove home and began dissecting components like Planman's write up. Loose bolt on the track bar mount at the axle. Bolt wasn't long enough to properly engage the lock nut and came Louise. Went to the hardware store and got longer Grade-8 and "bam" .......DW gone. I tried to hit small dips and pot holes to ensure my find was correct and I'm glad to report no issues. Going to alignment shop in the am. Thank you very much Planman, for a excellent write up.


Did you go through everything 100%
DW can cause a lot of damage. Worn track bar holes, ball joints, tre's, steering box/sector shaft.
Don't want it to sneak back up on you.
09-03-2014 07:07 PM
eh384 Just dropped mine off at the shop to fix my wobbles. I have a 2010 Unlimited, 4 inch lift, 37 inch Nittos. My guess is its the ball joints...
09-03-2014 06:39 PM
Wkdstx Just installed a RoughCountry 3.5" lift on my 2014 4 door JK. Followed everything in instructions to a tee (I thought). Took it for a test drive, "wa la" Death Wobble. And I mean bad. Slowly drove home and began dissecting components like Planman's write up. Loose bolt on the track bar mount at the axle. Bolt wasn't long enough to properly engage the lock nut and came Louise. Went to the hardware store and got longer Grade-8 and "bam" .......DW gone. I tried to hit small dips and pot holes to ensure my find was correct and I'm glad to report no issues. Going to alignment shop in the am. Thank you very much Planman, for a excellent write up.
09-03-2014 12:58 AM
i82much Not gonna read all this but I got very clear, repeatable DW on a 2013 with 19k miles, no lift, and 32s. Tightening the track bar bolts fixed it.

Seems clear to me Planman is on to something.
09-02-2014 07:28 PM
Rubedog So I didn't take too many pics, but I will say it was easy to have on jack stands , both wheels off, but I couldn't for the life of me so god help me loosen the tie rod from the bar on the passenger side! It was impossible , we even heated it and stuff to try.. Clamps.. Vice grips. Etc.. So I have 3 of the 4 pieces replaced . I'm going to buy the bar with that side already on, eff the hassle trying again.. Now here comes the fun part, that little shock dampener that's connected to the track bar was blown too, soo I ordered it, and before I can even get it here.. I drive away and go home, and starts to wobble again even with new drag link etc, well the weld holding that shock broke off .. Now I'm down a car can't even drive .. My big question is even with ALL the steering stuff being fixed, would having new shocks maybe help absorb some of that impact rather them the steering taking a lot of it?

Attachment 1450393
08-29-2014 11:06 PM
cmaggi2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubedog View Post
All good lol yes with stock (Moog parts and one movtech) ... Awesome info , this may sound dumb but it seems like there's room for changing the drag link without removing the tires but obviously for the tie rods they come off. Yeah the old drag link is bent along with the ends being worn out. After I change them all I'm just going to have it aligned at a shop , I don't feel like messing with aligning it. I appreciate the extra info I'll take pics and show everyone how it goes
I just replaced stock drag link with Synergy upgrade. Tires off was worth the time.
08-29-2014 07:04 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubedog View Post
All good lol yes with stock (Moog parts and one movtech) ... Awesome info , this may sound dumb but it seems like there's room for changing the drag link without removing the tires but obviously for the tie rods they come off. Yeah the old drag link is bent along with the ends being worn out. After I change them all I'm just going to have it aligned at a shop , I don't feel like messing with aligning it. I appreciate the extra info I'll take pics and show everyone how it goes
I believe you should be able to keep the tires on.
08-29-2014 02:02 PM
Rubedog
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
Sorry I wasn't clear. You are replacing stock with stock I assume ? The easiest way to do things. Replace the drag link first. Remove and match the new drag link in length. Adjust so the Steering wheel is centered. The tie rod is a little more difficult. Remove SS then tie rod. Measure and try to match the lengths. This sets your toe angle so it's important the lengths match. There's plenty of write ups how to set toe. If unsure .. Have the jeep professionally aligned. Couple ways to break the taper from the knuckle. Sometimes a solid hammer whack to the knuckle works. I like to leave the nut loose but left on near the top of the bolt (to protect the threads) use a piece if wood and hit the bolt head with a hammer.
All good lol yes with stock (Moog parts and one movtech) ... Awesome info , this may sound dumb but it seems like there's room for changing the drag link without removing the tires but obviously for the tie rods they come off. Yeah the old drag link is bent along with the ends being worn out. After I change them all I'm just going to have it aligned at a shop , I don't feel like messing with aligning it. I appreciate the extra info I'll take pics and show everyone how it goes
08-29-2014 05:48 AM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubedog View Post
In the pic I got what is considered the drag link .. Both ends.. The long shaft and the short one.. Then the ends of the tie rod too.. Those 4 parts
Sorry I wasn't clear. You are replacing stock with stock I assume ?

The easiest way to do things. Replace the drag link first. Remove and match the new drag link in length. Adjust so the Steering wheel is centered. The tie rod is a little more difficult. Remove SS then tie rod. Measure and try to match the lengths. This sets your toe angle so it's important the lengths match. There's plenty of write ups how to set toe. If unsure .. Have the jeep professionally aligned.

Couple ways to break the taper from the knuckle.
Sometimes a solid hammer whack to the knuckle works. I like to leave the nut loose but left on near the top of the bolt (to protect the threads) use a piece if wood and hit the bolt head with a hammer.
08-29-2014 12:50 AM
Rubedog
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
What exactly did you get for parts/brand ?


Attachment 1435322

In the pic I got what is considered the drag link .. Both ends.. The long shaft and the short one.. Then the ends of the tie rod too.. Those 4 parts
08-28-2014 10:57 PM
HappyFunJeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
U-joints/ball joints would be my guess, especially with a 07-08 and/or higher mileage and bigger tires.
Thanks. But they checked out okay when I ran Planman's checklist. Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but the problem cleared up completely when I fixed the electrical issue. It seems to drive better than it ever has in the two years I've driven it.

It's just another quirky problem to add to the possibilities, in case the wobble is accompanied by weird electrical symptoms.
08-28-2014 10:25 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunJeep View Post
Just wanted to say a huge thanks to Planman for all the information and the videos. My inspection didn't turn up anything (except a grimy bruise on my forehead), BUT my death wobble went away after I fixed some electrical problems that had been worsening at the same rate. For a long time my Jeep had a mild possession: when I opened the door or put in the key, occasionally the wipers would jump or the horn would beep quickly. I assumed it was a relay somewhere, but since it was just a mild nuisance I didn't go after it. Then a few weeks ago it worsened: several times while I was driving, the horn would start chattering, the wipers and fluid pump would go haywire, and sometimes the stabilization light and one other light would come on (I don't remember which). I could get it to stop by pounding on the lid of the fuse box, which I learned accidentally but which worked consistently. Around that time, I began to experience an unsettling occasional wobbling when I was going between 35-55 mph and turning the wheel to the left. I didn't think about it til later, but it worsened at the same rate the possession did. To make a long story longer, I dismantled the fuse box/power distribution assembly, cleaned all the connections and put it back together. This totally solved the electrical possession, including that old mild nuisance with the horn/wipers. AND, bonus! It did solve my wobble. Hypothesis is that it was freaking out the stabilization system which created a bad feedback loop ... but what do I know. At least that wobble is gone...it really was strong and sometimes borderline frightening. Great thread!
U-joints/ball joints would be my guess, especially with a 07-08 and/or higher mileage and bigger tires.
08-28-2014 09:42 PM
HappyFunJeep Just wanted to say a huge thanks to Planman for all the information and the videos.

My inspection didn't turn up anything (except a grimy bruise on my forehead), BUT my death wobble went away after I fixed some electrical problems that had been worsening at the same rate.

For a long time my Jeep had a mild possession: when I opened the door or put in the key, occasionally the wipers would jump or the horn would beep quickly. I assumed it was a relay somewhere, but since it was just a mild nuisance I didn't go after it. Then a few weeks ago it worsened: several times while I was driving, the horn would start chattering, the wipers and fluid pump would go haywire, and sometimes the stabilization light and one other light would come on (I don't remember which). I could get it to stop by pounding on the lid of the fuse box, which I learned accidentally but which worked consistently.

Around that time, I began to experience an unsettling occasional wobbling when I was going between 35-55 mph and turning the wheel to the left. I didn't think about it til later, but it worsened at the same rate the possession did.

To make a long story longer, I dismantled the fuse box/power distribution assembly, cleaned all the connections and put it back together. This totally solved the electrical possession, including that old mild nuisance with the horn/wipers. AND, bonus! It did solve my wobble. Hypothesis is that it was freaking out the stabilization system which created a bad feedback loop ... but what do I know. At least that wobble is gone...it really was strong and sometimes borderline frightening.

Great thread!
08-28-2014 07:46 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubedog View Post
Sorry to keep this going but i have all my new drag link/tie rod components, how long on average does it take to change them, how easy is it? ive worked on many jeeps before but never messed with steering..I am glad you posted those videos, helped me out a ton to diagnose, thank you. they seem fairly easy to change just give myself a few hours i take it
What exactly did you get for parts/brand ?
08-28-2014 06:10 PM
Rubedog Sorry to keep this going but i have all my new drag link/tie rod components, how long on average does it take to change them, how easy is it? ive worked on many jeeps before but never messed with steering..I am glad you posted those videos, helped me out a ton to diagnose, thank you. they seem fairly easy to change just give myself a few hours i take it
04-28-2014 12:50 PM
lee indy Im having some serious flighty issues.
only think i havent replaced is the draglink.

36k miles.

occasionally she will randomly wander off track and i have to fight a little to bring her back. alignment is good. im thinking its one or both of the TREs on the drag link.
03-06-2014 08:38 AM
MrJones944 Started to feel a little wobble about 6 months ago and it got progressively worse. OE ball joints last 31k miles with 35" tires and some light wheeling thrown in the mix. Luckily Szott Jeep in Michigan is awesome and its a warranty repair.
02-25-2014 07:02 PM
MarksJKU Hey Planman! Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this. You've answered most of the questions I've had about solid axle front end components. So far I don't have the DW, but I'll be sure to use this info in the future if needed. Thanks Again!
02-25-2014 05:45 PM
planman If Alex is still following this, I wanted to report that I found the following from the Chrysler rep on jeepforum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepCares View Post
There is an update available on the Steering Shimmy issue. Service Bulletin 19-002-12 has been distributed to the dealers. The Jeep Owners site been updated with the same information referenced below:

Steering System Maintenance:
It is important that the steering system be kept in good working condition. Having your vehicle inspected regularly to ensure it meets proper factory specifications, and promptly repairing the steering system when it is out of factory specifications, helps ensure the vehicle maintains its intended ride, handling and steering characteristics.
Vehicles equipped with a solid front axle may exhibit steering system vibration if the steering system is damaged or not properly maintained. This condition is not unique to Chrysler Group vehicles; any manufacturer’s vehicle equipped with a solid front axle has the potential to exhibit steering system vibration.
To ensure that Chrysler Group customers have the most relevant information to enhance their vehicle enjoyment -- and that customers receive the best service from repair facilities diagnosing and addressing steering system vibration -- the Company has issued Technical Service Bulletin 19-002-12 to assist dealers and repair facilities in the diagnosis and repair of this condition.
The following is a summary of the steering and suspension system elements that can potentially contribute to steering system vibration. Chrysler recommends having your authorized Chrysler dealer inspect these elements should you experience steering system vibration:
  • Is the vehicle equipped with aftermarket components or other modifications (e.g. lift kits, wheels, suspension components or tires) that can affect the performance of or wear upon steering components?*
  • Check the air pressure in the tires and ensure they are inflated to the recommended pressure. This value can be found on the tire placard located on the driver’s front door enclosure.
  • Inspect the tires for signs of unusual or uneven wear, cupping or other damage.
  • Ensure that the tires/wheels are balanced within specification
  • Inspect the steering damper for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the track bar for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the tie rods for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the drag link for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the ball joints for excessive wear or damage.**
* Installation of aftermarket steering and suspension components or wheel and tire assemblies that are either not compatible with your vehicle or not designed for on-road use is most often the cause of steering system vibration, in which case you may consult your aftermarket equipment manufacturer or vehicle modifier for repair suggestions
** If any of the steering or suspension components are replaced, a front end wheel alignment is required.
If you have questions regarding your vehicle, its ride and handling or steering characteristics as they may relate to steering system vibration, please consult with your authorized Chrysler Group dealer to have your vehicle inspected.
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