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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-05-2011 07:30 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
I don't think so it's been there all 6 model years so far. You may be new to the JK, but most of these features have been here since day one.
I'm not referring to the current enthusiast Wrangler crowd specifically...but more in general with the non-enthusiast consumer. Clearly those that are into off-roading or sports cars understand mechanical LSD's.....but somoene's wife....or mother...or non-mechanical brother may not understand the nuance of a BLD system versus a mechanical LSD. Or ELSD vs BSD...or LSD vs Locking Diffs, ect... This may be more so as more non off-roaders purchase Wranglers and really don't care to know the differences.

Heck, up until I pulled a bunch of old files and articles, I could not get a straight answer on this site (or others) as to if the JK Rubi had (mechanical) LSD or not. Many thought it didn't...but no one knew for sure.
10-05-2011 06:26 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark

The question wasn't really does the Rubi come with lockers or LSD. We all know the Rubi comes front and rear e-lockers.

The question was...does a (JK) Rubi come with LSD?

The answer is no.....

However...it does come with BLD.....which in time will probably be called LSD by lazy marketing people...which in turn will trickle down to the "new" LSD.

Eventually a true mechanical LSD's will be all but forgotten about by the average consumer.....similar to the way 4WD and AWD are sometimes crossed up by those who don't know better.....especially with nanny style traction control showing up everywhere.
I don't think so it's been there all 6 model years so far. You may be new to the JK, but most of these features have been here since day one.
10-05-2011 03:55 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3JKs1H1 View Post
Lockers vrs. LSD (or BLD, BTM, etc) is night versus day. With lockers, you can approach an obstacle (like a 12" log or slick rock), stop, and slowly climb over it. You have traction or you don't. No traction? Pick a better line or air down - sometimes it's just too steep. IMHO, less chance of breaking something with lockers - you don't need high rpm and speed to (hopefully) overcome an obstacle. Assuming ground clearance, you can walk over most obstacles. Nobody who has ever had lockers on a truck would ever switch them out to LSD. Perhaps another type of locker (ie Auburn vrs Detroit), but not to a LSD/Torsen, etc.
The question wasn't really does the Rubi come with lockers or LSD. We all know the Rubi comes front and rear e-lockers.

The question was...does a (JK) Rubi come with LSD?

The answer is no.....

However...it does come with BLD.....which in time will probably be called LSD by lazy marketing people...which in turn will trickle down to the "new" LSD.

Eventually a true mechanical LSD's will be all but forgotten about by the average consumer.....similar to the way 4WD and AWD are sometimes crossed up by those who don't know better.....especially with nanny style traction control showing up everywhere.
10-05-2011 01:33 PM
3JKs1H1 Lockers vrs. LSD (or BLD, BTM, etc) is night versus day. With lockers, you can approach an obstacle (like a 12" log or slick rock), stop, and slowly climb over it. You have traction or you don't. No traction? Pick a better line or air down - sometimes it's just too steep. IMHO, less chance of breaking something with lockers - you don't need high rpm and speed to (hopefully) overcome an obstacle. Assuming ground clearance, you can walk over most obstacles. Nobody who has ever had lockers on a truck would ever switch them out to LSD. Perhaps another type of locker (ie Auburn vrs Detroit), but not to a LSD/Torsen, etc.
10-05-2011 12:45 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
I'll add a third no to the question of the Rubi having an LSD.

Where does Chrysler refer to the BSD/ELSD as an LSD in their literature? I would like to see how it is referred to before passing judgement. Calling it an LSD is different than saying it sends power to the wheel with traction like an LSD.

I don't think we need to lump them together, but times are definitely changing. The average consumer these days would rather have some complex electronic system that costs $1000 over something elegantly simple that does the same thing for $100.
I could save a lot of time and energy if your posts automatically generate mine as well.

10-05-2011 12:43 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
^That is my take as well. Starting in 2007, with the JK's....the mechanical LSD's were removed from the Rubi's.


Now...is Chrysler mistakenly calling their BSD...or ELSD "limited slip differential" in some of their literature?
Maybe....
Or are times changing to the point where BLD/ELSD can now be considered LSD?
Please, just forget this so called literature. Most of the time it's all marketing that someone cut and pasted it, adding to the Rubicon part by mistake. Unless your build sheet says it has a LSD, then it doesn't.

Let's try to keep this forum based on facts, not some random cut sheet.
10-05-2011 12:40 PM
oilwell1415 I'll add a third no to the question of the Rubi having an LSD.

Where does Chrysler refer to the BSD/ELSD as an LSD in their literature? I would like to see how it is referred to before passing judgement. Calling it an LSD is different than saying it sends power to the wheel with traction like an LSD.

I don't think we need to lump them together, but times are definitely changing. The average consumer these days would rather have some complex electronic system that costs $1000 over something elegantly simple that does the same thing for $100.
10-05-2011 12:39 PM
JIMBOX Could be, remember when you used to say "Whats up man" ??


Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
^That is my take as well. Starting in 2007, with the JK's....the mechanical LSD's were removed from the Rubi's.


Now...is Chrysler mistakenly calling their BSD...or ELSD "limited slip differential" in some of their literature?
Maybe....
Or are times changing to the point where BLD/ELSD can now be considered LSD?
Now unless you say "SUP", you're just out of it-

There ain't no reason forit, it's just the way we doit !

JIMBO
10-05-2011 12:25 PM
panthermark ^That is my take as well. Starting in 2007, with the JK's....the mechanical LSD's were removed from the Rubi's.


Now...is Chrysler mistakenly calling their BSD...or ELSD "limited slip differential" in some of their literature?
Maybe....
Or are times changing to the point where BLD/ELSD can now be considered LSD?
10-05-2011 12:12 PM
JIMBOX NOPE, although I'm not sure about the "JESUS" jeep !


Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
Then you tell me....yes or no...does the Rubi axle have a true mechanical Limited Slip Differential located inside the pumpkin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
NO
--BINGO

NOPE, 07 thru 11 Rubi ain't got none !

JIMBO
10-05-2011 12:09 PM
daggo66
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
Then you tell me....yes or no...does the Rubi axle have a true mechanical Limited Slip Differential located inside the pumpkin?

NO
10-05-2011 12:07 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post



Hence the thread is about differentials.
Then you tell me....yes or no...does the Rubi axle have a true mechanical Limited Slip Differential located inside the pumpkin?
10-05-2011 11:46 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowingghoul View Post
My "point" was addressing the OP's concern about not being able to order an LSD for the Rubicon. From a functionality standpoint, it doesn't really matter since there's another system in place that get the job done.

Most vehicles have traction control, but not a BLD system as part of that package. It's a Mercedes patented system that has to be licensed for use.
Mercedes must have the best patent lawyer in the world. GM has been doing this since at least 97, they just don't have a fancy name for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
I think the thread is about the Rubi having LSD or not.
Hence the thread is about differentials.
10-05-2011 10:28 AM
demarpaint Just wondering, has anyone with the BLD system seen uneven brake wear left to right, on either the front or rear axle? I was wondering if the BLD system applying brakes to one side of a vehicle more than the other side could cause excess brake wear to one wheel only?
10-05-2011 09:31 AM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
So does having your buddy grab the spinning wheel and hold it so the power goes to the other side, but that's not a differential either. The thread is about differentials, not 101 ways to force power to a place it doesn't want to go.
I think the thread is about the Rubi having LSD or not.
From what I can tell, it does not have a true limited slip differential, but it does have software that mimics LSD via braking.

Here is something on BLD...and to be honest, we need to start digging into ELSD as well.
Chrysler Blog - Jeep Brake Traction Control Explained
10-05-2011 09:02 AM
glowingghoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
So what's your point? It isn't a type of differential, which is what the thread is about. It's a glorified traction control system which is present on most vehicles made today.
My "point" was addressing the OP's concern about not being able to order an LSD for the Rubicon. From a functionality standpoint, it doesn't really matter since there's another system in place that get the job done.

Most vehicles have traction control, but not a BLD system as part of that package. It's a Mercedes patented system that has to be licensed for use.
10-05-2011 08:22 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark;1629328BLD
does fit the term....well...kind off. Not a pumpkin...but serves the same purpose....almost.
So does having your buddy grab the spinning wheel and hold it so the power goes to the other side, but that's not a differential either. The thread is about differentials, not 101 ways to force power to a place it doesn't want to go.
10-05-2011 08:18 AM
panthermark ^But given your definition:
Limited slip differential: This uses some form of friction or mechanical force to increase the torque required to make one tire turn at a different rate than the other. These are never truly locked together and some slip is always possible.

BLD does fit the term....well...kind off. Not a pumpkin...but serves the same purpose....almost.

But again, the earlier Rubi info also says the recommended fuel is flexible, and that it gets 21 mpg....for an Unlimited.....which is incorrect. Can't trust Chrysler....
10-05-2011 08:01 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowingghoul View Post
It has nothing to do with the differential, but serves the same function as an LSD, albeit using sensors, computers, and brakes, rather than a mechanical device.
So what's your point? It isn't a type of differential, which is what the thread is about. It's a glorified traction control system which is present on most vehicles made today.
10-04-2011 05:45 PM
glowingghoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
BLD has nothing to do with the differential. It's none of the above.
It has nothing to do with the differential, but serves the same function as an LSD, albeit using sensors, computers, and brakes, rather than a mechanical device.
10-04-2011 04:46 PM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
So would you consider "BLD" limited slip?
BLD has nothing to do with the differential. It's none of the above.
10-04-2011 04:03 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
I think that talked all the way around the circle and still didn't clear anything up. Here is what the types mentioned are:

Limited slip differential: This uses some form of friction or mechanical force to increase the torque required to make one tire turn at a different rate than the other. These are never truly locked together and some slip is always possible. The Gov-Lok is in this category. I am not familiar with the Command Traxx.

Locking differential: This is a differential assembly that automatically locks itself together allowing zero slippage from one tire to the other when needed. When one tire needs to turn at a different rate than the other for cornering it automatically unlocks to allow the turn to happen as it should.

Differential lock: This is a manually actuated function that physcally locks the two wheels together. It does not slip and does not disengage for turns unless you manually unlock it.
So would you consider "BLD" limited slip?
10-04-2011 03:41 PM
oilwell1415 I think that talked all the way around the circle and still didn't clear anything up. Here is what the types mentioned are:

Limited slip differential: This uses some form of friction or mechanical force to increase the torque required to make one tire turn at a different rate than the other. These are never truly locked together and some slip is always possible. The Gov-Lok is in this category. I am not familiar with the Command Traxx.

Locking differential: This is a differential assembly that automatically locks itself together allowing zero slippage from one tire to the other when needed. When one tire needs to turn at a different rate than the other for cornering it automatically unlocks to allow the turn to happen as it should.

Differential lock: This is a manually actuated function that physcally locks the two wheels together. It does not slip and does not disengage for turns unless you manually unlock it.
10-04-2011 03:39 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepinAl View Post
I'm in the same thought "boat" you are, however...


2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4WD Rubicon SUV in Charlotte, NC

Options

SAFETY AND SECURITY


Brake assistIgnition disableElectronic stabilityDual front impact airbagsABS brakesPanic alarmOccupant sensing airbagSecurity systemDual front side impact airbags4 wheel disc brakesTraction controlIntegrated roll-over protection↑ to top Tech Specs

POWERTRAINEngine liters: 3.6Torque: 260 lb.-ft. @ 4,800RPMLimited slip differentialCylinder configuration: V-6Variable valve controlFuel economy highway: 21mpgSequential multi-point fuel injectionNumber of valves: 24Recommended fuel: flexibleHorsepower: 285hp @ 6,400RPMFuel tank capacity: 22.5gal.Fuel economy city: 16mpgDrive type: four-wheelEngine location: front


Wouldn't be the first time a car manufacturer had a different "definition" of an option
Jeep literature.....
10-04-2011 03:10 PM
Rockyroad816 I don't want to beat a dead horse on this LSD thing. But, I found this on locking differential and differential lock are not the same
I don't know jack about this topic. So does this make sense ?


"If you have to decide whether to get a "locking differential" aka limited slip (LS), if available as an option on your new truck, I would recommend getting it, because it is still better than not having anything at all."



"locking differential and differential lock are not the same thing!

Only few vehicles in the US are offered stock with front and rear differential locks: Dodge Powerwagon, Hummer H2 + H3, Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, Mercedes G500.

On some models a rear differential lock is optional: Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, some Mitsubishi, some Toyota.
Other terms used for differential locks are: locker, diff locks, diff lockers, differential lockers

Unfortunately,
limited slip differentials (LS), available as options for many 4x4 in the US are offered by sales people as "locking differentials". A confusing term because nothing on these differentials is LOCKING. They are by far inferior to a differential that is truly (manually or automatically) lockable.
If you have to decide whether to get a "locking differential" aka limited slip (LS), if available as an option on your new truck, I would recommend getting it, because it is still better than not having anything at all.

To repeat: "locking differentials" are limited slip differentials that are not to be confused with differential lock!

Differential lock = differential locker = diff lock = diff locker = locker


It seems to me, that manufacturers and dealers prefer to use the term "locking differential" over the correct term "limited slip differential" because it sounds more like the real thing - even though it is not. Is this already consumer fraud?


Now here is a twist to the locking differential story: When Chevy advertises its trucks with an optional rear locking differential - it indeed is a differential that locks up (automatically). In the 80's it was sold as a Gov-Lok for a while named Command-Traxx and is available in some Chevy trucks as G80 option. It is not manually activated as in Dodge, Jeep and Mercedes - it locks up automatically. It is a hybrid of a clutch type limited slip unit combined with a flyweight governor that is able to lock up 100%.


In addition to factory installed diff locks, there are several aftermarket options to add a differential lock to front and rear axles.
ARB Air Locker, Detroit Locker, Eaton Locker are probably the best known. Recently we saw some newcomers like the OX Locker which seems like a copy of a long know German Schwarz locker to me.

10-04-2011 10:11 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH View Post
^^The Rubi does have "electronic stability." I think they just copied the wrong description as to the LSD or the marketing materials are wrong.
I can't imagine that Jeep would botch either of those for the 2012 Wranglers.
10-04-2011 10:10 AM
MTH ^^The Rubi does have "electronic stability." I think they just copied the wrong description as to the LSD or the marketing materials are wrong.
10-04-2011 10:06 AM
JeepinAl
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH View Post
Sure. It's not an option. Can't order it. No choice.

Your diffs are either locked, or open, end of story. That is supplemented by the aforementioned "brake lock differential" that uses traction control to apply the brakes and simulate an LSD when your diffs aren't locked.
I'm in the same thought "boat" you are, however...


2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4WD Rubicon SUV in Charlotte, NC

Options

SAFETY AND SECURITY


Brake assistIgnition disableElectronic stabilityDual front impact airbagsABS brakesPanic alarmOccupant sensing airbagSecurity systemDual front side impact airbags4 wheel disc brakesTraction controlIntegrated roll-over protection↑ to top Tech Specs

POWERTRAINEngine liters: 3.6Torque: 260 lb.-ft. @ 4,800RPMLimited slip differentialCylinder configuration: V-6Variable valve controlFuel economy highway: 21mpgSequential multi-point fuel injectionNumber of valves: 24Recommended fuel: flexibleHorsepower: 285hp @ 6,400RPMFuel tank capacity: 22.5gal.Fuel economy city: 16mpgDrive type: four-wheelEngine location: front


Wouldn't be the first time a car manufacturer had a different "definition" of an option
10-04-2011 08:34 AM
JIMBOX Very good panther, outstanding presentation, any/all that want lockers can use that for good info !!

I can only say that the elockers are great, but can be cranky---and they have many restrictions, just like a wife !

JIMBO
10-04-2011 08:31 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak View Post
after the weak lsd in my xterra couldnt make it up a 3 ft square of slush and ice in our driveway without going into 4x4 i decided not to waste money on another factory lsd when i got my new 2012 sahara.
That is not the fault of the LSD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ Knight View Post
Did Jeep upgrade there rear lsd's from past model jeeps? I know in past jeep models the lsd's were know to wear out eventually and become ineffective but Jeep could have fixed that by now.. If they haven't, Im sure someone will anwser the lsd wear out question for you.. but if it's me and they haven't changed them then I would get one with a open rear and just get a detroit tru trac for the rear if you want a lsd. I know and trust the detroit tru trac. Jeeps rear lsd I am yet to hear of them lasting the life of the jeep
There isn't a friction type LSD out there that doesn't wear out eventually. They all degrade with time and need rebuilt. Most are showing signs of wear within 20k-30k and need the clutches replaces by 50k miles. This is not a big deal most of the time. The clutches for my 8.8 cost $50 and took half an hour to install. Conversely, the clutches for my 9.75 are over $100, took several hours, and were a vocabulary expanding linguistic adventure to install. The poor neighbor kids are likely scarred for life, or at least a little perplexed. I understand the Jeep is more like the latter, but haven't yet had the pleasure of finding out.
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