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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-28-2014 11:50 AM
lee indy Im having some serious flighty issues.
only think i havent replaced is the draglink.

36k miles.

occasionally she will randomly wander off track and i have to fight a little to bring her back. alignment is good. im thinking its one or both of the TREs on the drag link.
03-06-2014 07:38 AM
MrJones944 Started to feel a little wobble about 6 months ago and it got progressively worse. OE ball joints last 31k miles with 35" tires and some light wheeling thrown in the mix. Luckily Szott Jeep in Michigan is awesome and its a warranty repair.
02-25-2014 06:02 PM
MarksJKU Hey Planman! Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this. You've answered most of the questions I've had about solid axle front end components. So far I don't have the DW, but I'll be sure to use this info in the future if needed. Thanks Again!
02-25-2014 04:45 PM
planman If Alex is still following this, I wanted to report that I found the following from the Chrysler rep on jeepforum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepCares View Post
There is an update available on the Steering Shimmy issue. Service Bulletin 19-002-12 has been distributed to the dealers. The Jeep Owners site been updated with the same information referenced below:

Steering System Maintenance:
It is important that the steering system be kept in good working condition. Having your vehicle inspected regularly to ensure it meets proper factory specifications, and promptly repairing the steering system when it is out of factory specifications, helps ensure the vehicle maintains its intended ride, handling and steering characteristics.
Vehicles equipped with a solid front axle may exhibit steering system vibration if the steering system is damaged or not properly maintained. This condition is not unique to Chrysler Group vehicles; any manufacturer’s vehicle equipped with a solid front axle has the potential to exhibit steering system vibration.
To ensure that Chrysler Group customers have the most relevant information to enhance their vehicle enjoyment -- and that customers receive the best service from repair facilities diagnosing and addressing steering system vibration -- the Company has issued Technical Service Bulletin 19-002-12 to assist dealers and repair facilities in the diagnosis and repair of this condition.
The following is a summary of the steering and suspension system elements that can potentially contribute to steering system vibration. Chrysler recommends having your authorized Chrysler dealer inspect these elements should you experience steering system vibration:
  • Is the vehicle equipped with aftermarket components or other modifications (e.g. lift kits, wheels, suspension components or tires) that can affect the performance of or wear upon steering components?*
  • Check the air pressure in the tires and ensure they are inflated to the recommended pressure. This value can be found on the tire placard located on the driver’s front door enclosure.
  • Inspect the tires for signs of unusual or uneven wear, cupping or other damage.
  • Ensure that the tires/wheels are balanced within specification
  • Inspect the steering damper for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the track bar for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the tie rods for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the drag link for excessive wear or damage.**
  • Inspect the ball joints for excessive wear or damage.**
* Installation of aftermarket steering and suspension components or wheel and tire assemblies that are either not compatible with your vehicle or not designed for on-road use is most often the cause of steering system vibration, in which case you may consult your aftermarket equipment manufacturer or vehicle modifier for repair suggestions
** If any of the steering or suspension components are replaced, a front end wheel alignment is required.
If you have questions regarding your vehicle, its ride and handling or steering characteristics as they may relate to steering system vibration, please consult with your authorized Chrysler Group dealer to have your vehicle inspected.
02-19-2014 10:21 AM
planman
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexInYT View Post
Planman's Diagnosis IS a very thorough, well done examination, I give props for that; as a professional. I merely point out the need not to neglect that which puts all the other components to the road; particularly if any appreciable milage - or unusual travel/wear - is on the unit. Really, the mechanical aspect is the easy one to eliminate - Tires, not so easy given their dynamic nature. And, it only takes ONE loss-of-control event to really spoil someones day.
Thank you.

The purpose of this thread is to help people diagnose the sources of their Death Wobble and Non-DW Wobbles and Shimmies.

We both agree that proper maintenance and installations reduce the possibility of full on, rip-your-front-end-apart Death Wobble.

We both agree that keeping tires balanced and rotated, and keeping alignment specs correct is critical to maintenance.

I think you agree with me that periodically retorquing suspension bolts should be part of normal maintenance.

I think you probably agree with me that the "acceptable" range of play in ball joints and other suspension components is too broad--especially when there is a cumulative affect when there is "within spec" play in multiple components at the same time.

I think we agree that a vehicle that gets used offroad gets exposed to damage or stress to components--i.e. a rock or tree stump can damage the adjusting sleeve/collar on the front tie rod, which puts the alignment out of spec, and which introduces play/vibrations to the front end that can damage other components.

I think that where we disagree is that I believe that believe that a rig with perfectly balanced tires and a correct alignment can still develop Death Wobble if suspension bolts are not periodically torqued or if rubber control arm or trackbar bushings are pinched between brackets in a non-nuetral, pre-loaded/binding/twisting position. I believe that road variations from crossing bridge expansion joints, railroad tracks, potholes, etc., are the most common triggers of the Death Wobble oscillations.

I think we also disagree about tires. For example, I don't believe that a Goodyear MTR 35x12.50R17, load range C, 111Q service description tire will result in wobble and shimmy problems and premature component wear on a 4000-4500 lbs jeep.

In the end, I think what would be most helpful for readers--with the understanding that the majority of readers of this thread are already dealing with shimmy, wobble, and/or full on Death Wobble issues--is to clarify that we agree on the thoroughness of the steps required to diagnose all the sources of the problems, and that it is incompetent to simply balance and rotate tires, do an alignment, and install a new steering stabilizer without a thorough diagnosis that identifies why the steering stablizer failed prematurely.
02-19-2014 09:14 AM
kjeeper10 So I was correct. The definition of "DW" is different to some people. I think it would be safe to "agree to disagree"

This is what most including myself consider death wobble. There's many videos but this one if one of my favorites,
http://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=em&v=...xJE%26sns%3Dem
02-19-2014 06:21 AM
AlexInYT
Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Alex. I would point out that of the tens of thousands of people who have read my threads and watched my videos to diagnose and fix their source(s) of Death Wobble, a good percentage of them have been completely stock vehicles, and a good percentage of them that were upgraded, were running load range D and E tires. I doubt that many of them were running load range C tires. Pretty much the only load range C tires that end up on JKs are 35x12.50R17 Goodyear MTRs. The vast majority of non-stock tires on JKs are load range D and E tires.
At the risk of sounding rude - an internet celebrity does not a professional make. (This is not to say you are, or are not a professional - this is to say using internet celebrity is not a valid claim to experience or knowledge.) In the case of running higher grade ( aka, more mass) tires, the risk of inciting a shimmy, shudder, vibration, or death wobble increases. Yes, higher grade, stiffer tires will do a great deal to mask/dampen the issue - but the added mass of that same tire puts more stress, especially long term, over the components. Its kind of a circular issue, if you follow. It really boils down to the 'weak link in a chain' analogy - beef up one component, then the next-weakest component will be the one that fails. Hell, I run Hankook IPike Ice tires. standard load, same numerical size but of ultimately lighter mass than the BFGoodrich stockers (at least it feels that way when I re/re them; never actually weighed them), and Ive had those tires run the Jeep up to near triple digits on the old scale - I am on 37,000+KMS. My front end is rock solid tight - and the roads I travel are far from ideal. In fact, I have felt a wobble (very mild at that) from the front precisely twice in my time owning my Jeep - once when a blob of mud glued into the LF rim and once when I chucked the weight off the RF rim. The Jeep told me instantly something was up; demonstrating the sensitivity to a loss of perfection in any regard. In short - demonstrating a lack of tolerance for issues.

Quote:
In fact, the friend's jeep that I used for the two inspection videos was on load range D 37x12.50R17 BFG KM2s. The tires were regularly balanced and rotated.

He didn't have full on, violent Death Wobble, but he did have a bad, random wobble and shimmy.
In short, issues to be repaired. As I have stated before, even tires that balance out can still cause a shudder if not appropriate for the task. Is that in your case? Well, I guess the question is, did you fix what you found?
Quote:
He took it to the dealer and to his offroad shop. Supposedly, they inspected everything, and the only thing they found wrong was a leaking steering stabilizer. So, they installed a heavier duty steering stabilizer and sent him on his way. Of course, it didn't fix the problem.

With my teenage son, it took us less than 45 minutes--including time to record the video--to diagnose that the stock ball joints had excess play, and the drag link end at the knuckle had play.
To be fair; Ive noted a lack of (what I would call) professionalism in some shops down in the States - at least, from what I have observed both online and what has been reported to me over the years by customers passing through the shops I have worked at - Where I am from however, generally such is eliminated by the fact that to be a technician techs have to actually attend training and apprentice for 4 years; spending 2 months for each of those years going to school. The requirements are quite stringent - and, to some dealership techs, rather annoying that the factory does not recognize said training. Oh sure, you hear the odd horror story - but usually the story stems from the customer being rather irked at a rather large repair bill (usually due to getting rejected on warranty claims); Which only gets exacerbated by non-dealerships offering the same job for considerably less. But, YMMV in such cases.

Quote:
There is no reason or excuse that the "professionals" at the dealership or the offroad and tire shop should miss worn ball joints and a worn drag link end at the knuckle. It is either incompetence or laziness to do an alignment, balance and rotate tires, and then slap a new steering stabilizer on it. The shop and the dealer didn't find the alignment out of spec or the tires/wheels out of balance.
I would be very careful in saying that. Funny thing - Ball joints and drag links have 'permissible specifications' in which play noted within the specs is considered acceptable, normal, and NOT causes for wear (which, in fact, you did glance upon in your initial post). Without putting the proper tools on the components you checked, namely balljoints, little hard to arbitrarily say that 'the ball joints are shot'. Same with the vertical play you demonstrated in the drag links. LATERAL play is the 'instant call', but vert play? Expected by the factory. Now, if the play exceeds specs then yes they get called as wore and to be replaced. Since I did not see you present the appropriate tools to MEASURE the play; yea, that case can be easily made either way. Its a very, very common trick that no name brand shops play - they will grab a pair of vice grips, compress links/tie rods with them, and say to the customer 'oh, there's .020" play in your tie rod; it needs to be replaced'. Yet the guys that would stand to lose billions if such were true, dont call tie rods/links for such exhibited play; at least until the link shows truly severe play. Now, flip side of the coin, there was sufficient play in the ball joints that I saw in your vid where I would of applied the tools - namely, dial indicator - to measure the play and confirm suspicions. Also? An alignment, in and of itself, may not detect a wobble concern or fault. By that, I mean that a wore component may be sitting within its spec alignment while sitting on the machine - and of course, be knocked right out to lunch the second its off the machine. An Alignment is an important (preferably second final) step, to be sure. BTW - what is the date code on those tires?

Now, to be fair, I tend to be over protective when I inspect said components, and will call them shall we say 'aggressively' - that said, Ive also learned to recognize what is normal, does not pose a safety risk, and is part of the normal life cycle of a part. Wheels shaking out of customer hands? That generally brings a VERY quick comeback - and I, for one, pride myself on doing all I can that when a customer returns, its not because I screwed the pooch.
Quote:
The stock ball joints are fairly weak and not servicable. The are a poor design and wear out prematurely, even on a completely stock jeep. The worn ball joints resulted in wobbles that caused premature failures of the steering stabilizer and the drag link end at the knuckle. None of this was tire/wheel related on his jeep.
In regards to the balljoints being of light construction, I agree. However; you are STILL ignoring WHERE the wear - bloody tongue twister - comes from. How many klicks were on that Jeep, out of curiosity? More to the point - what do you think might happen when loads over and above design specifications are applied to the ball joints? Its called "accelerated wear". Yes, they are lightly built (re - cheap) but faulting the joints for premature failure if/when other aspects have been ignored is pretty flawed diagnostics. That line of 'oh why did they wear out?" "oh they are just crappy parts" can be a very quick way to land in a libel court; and is not particularly honest to a customer.

Quote:
Here is a study of the stock ball joints: OEM Ball Joint Study - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

And another thread comparing aftermarket to stock: ***NEW*** Synergy Suspension Jeep JK Ball Joints!!! - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
Interesting links you provide. The latter, in particular, seems to have a less than stellar opine of this forum. But, thats neither here nor there.

Quote:
Jeep does not use a ball joint in JK trackbars--at least they didn't on 07- early 11s. They use a 14 mm bolt with a torque spec of 125 ft lbs, with a trackbar that has Clevite rubber bushings.
That was a comment aimed at the trucks - I had thought that obvious. Pardon me on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
DW to some has different meanings. That's where the confusion Lies.
Let's remove the solid front axles and add IFS. Throw on a set of badly out of round unbalanced tires ... Is this death wobble ? To some,
a bad shake (not a harmonic resonance/DW)
DW is related to and common with any solid axle vehicle the track bar needs to be loosen or worn out to HavE DW. Everything else is a trigger included tires .
If I were to be sardonic, I personally would define a 'death wobble' as any condition in which control of the vehicle is threatened via the shaking/wobbling of the steering. More to the point - a wobble, ANY wobble, shudder, shake, etc that compromises the safe handling of a vehicle must be addressed. However, to be precise of the matter; you are not quite right about the application of harmonics - in that, harmonic shudder can and does come from the lateral, vertical, or really any direction of repeated oscillation of an axle - AND that originating from tire/wheel assemblies. Think the term 'harmonic balancer' such as on engines, and you'll instantly see my point. If it rotates; that is a harmonic. Harmonics can be very peculiar too - they can increase or cease as the speed goes up.

To be crystal clear - there *IS NO* confusion on my part. Im simply attempting to eliminate the confusion for anyone else that reads this. Nor am I trying to be a prick or what have you - but when it comes to the safety of people on the road; I do what I can to ensure that nothing is missed. I see a lot of ragging on the manufacture - and not a lot of would be called 'personal responsibility' for issues that arise outside the control of the manufacturer. Gods know, Ive ranted more than one occasion on the cheap slag that Mopar, and any other, manufacturer produces - But that damned well includes the final component that 'unites' the vehicle to the road.

TL;DR - I am in no way stating 'do not inspect/repair mechanical components'. I am stating, very clearly by now I should hope, that the root cause for said issues must be examined for. Planman's Diagnosis IS a very thorough, well done examination, I give props for that; as a professional. I merely point out the need not to neglect that which puts all the other components to the road; particularly if any appreciable milage - or unusual travel/wear - is on the unit. Really, the mechanical aspect is the easy one to eliminate - Tires, not so easy given their dynamic nature. And, it only takes ONE loss-of-control event to really spoil someones day.
02-19-2014 04:27 AM
kjeeper10 DW to some has different meanings. That's where the confusion Lies.
Let's remove the solid front axles and add IFS. Throw on a set of badly out of round unbalanced tires ... Is this death wobble ? To some,
a bad shake (not a harmonic resonance/DW)
DW is related to and common with any solid axle vehicle the track bar needs to be loosen or worn out to HavE DW. Everything else is a trigger included tires .
02-19-2014 01:07 AM
planman Alex. I would point out that of the tens of thousands of people who have read my threads and watched my videos to diagnose and fix their source(s) of Death Wobble, a good percentage of them have been completely stock vehicles, and a good percentage of them that were upgraded, were running load range D and E tires. I doubt that many of them were running load range C tires. Pretty much the only load range C tires that end up on JKs are 35x12.50R17 Goodyear MTRs. The vast majority of non-stock tires on JKs are load range D and E tires.

In fact, the friend's jeep that I used for the two inspection videos was on load range D 37x12.50R17 BFG KM2s. The tires were regularly balanced and rotated.

He didn't have full on, violent Death Wobble, but he did have a bad, random wobble and shimmy.

He took it to the dealer and to his offroad shop. Supposedly, they inspected everything, and the only thing they found wrong was a leaking steering stabilizer. So, they installed a heavier duty steering stabilizer and sent him on his way. Of course, it didn't fix the problem.

With my teenage son, it took us less than 45 minutes--including time to record the video--to diagnose that the stock ball joints had excess play, and the drag link end at the knuckle had play.

There is no reason or excuse that the "professionals" at the dealership or the offroad and tire shop should miss worn ball joints and a worn drag link end at the knuckle. It is either incompetence or laziness to do an alignment, balance and rotate tires, and then slap a new steering stabilizer on it. The shop and the dealer didn't find the alignment out of spec or the tires/wheels out of balance.

The stock ball joints are fairly weak and not servicable. The are a poor design and wear out prematurely, even on a completely stock jeep. The worn ball joints resulted in wobbles that caused premature failures of the steering stabilizer and the drag link end at the knuckle. None of this was tire/wheel related on his jeep.

Here is a study of the stock ball joints: http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37259

And another thread comparing aftermarket to stock: http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34227

Jeep does not use a ball joint in JK trackbars--at least they didn't on 07- early 11s. They use a 14 mm bolt with a torque spec of 125 ft lbs, with a trackbar that has Clevite rubber bushings.
02-19-2014 12:16 AM
AlexInYT Generally I agree; but I still feel you are minimizing just how much trouble rubber can cause any vehicle. That is my entire point. Believe me; track bars have caused plethora's of issues - though (perhaps arguably) more so for the big boys than for the Jeeps. (What brainiac thought up a ball jointed track bar anyway? Sheesh.) More over, I again emphasize where and how an issue can be 'born' is not simply what might be portrayed as poor execution in one regard or another by Chrysler (mismatched bolt-to-bolt-hole sizes for example). This becomes all the more apparent when vehicles come into the shop with less than 20K on the clock - hell, as I noted, with less than 1000 miles total - and the vehicle wants to go in any direction via a genuine DW than the direction the driver is pointing it at.

To put another way - loose/wore/damaged parts may cause the wobble; but take it back to the root cause of said issues -- where, how, and why did these parts fail prematurely? Because they were not torqued correctly? Most of the time the manufacture is pretty damned fast (under threat of mass law suits) to correct mechanical issues. But tires; they tend to be somewhat more nebulous. To say 'oh I retorqued the track bar; it was loose' or 'I had to replace the track bar mounts as they had become oval'ed' does not address WHY these parts became damaged to begin with. And, as noted; when the unit is literally fresh off the factory floor and the ONLY change to it has been tires; which themselves are new, properly balanced and installed; and suddenly the steering wheel shudders more than a blender with ball bearings in it; Yea; its time to take a hard look at the rubber.

Like I said on my original post - Ive been there; Ive seen (and had to diagnose and repair!) literally fleets of vehicles afflicted in such a matter. Given that the Jeep driveline is of much lighter construction than a 3/4 or 1 ton while twisting weight that is not proportionally lower; such becomes clear that the root cause had better be nailed or the problems will come back. This is not to say that the jeeps are flawed (because, as noted, when the vehicles of any brand are found and confirmed to have a flaw; the manufacturers are pretty quick to address it; especially ones so directly related to safety) but rather outside variables; particularly ones that go above and beyond what was originally put on the drafting board.

Anyway; If nothing else; I would imagine our back and forth has served to enlighten those concerned about this issue and serve to give a wide berth of information to use in such issues.
02-18-2014 11:38 PM
planman Again, checking the tires is the very first thing on my inspection checklist, and swapping tires/wheels with a friend is one of the last things in that post. I don't disagree with you that having properly balanced and rotated tires is critical.

However, we will continue to disagree about the primary causes of ovaled trackbar bracket holes, prematurely worn drag link and tie rod ends, prematurely worn ball joints, prematurely failed steering stabilizers, damaged trackbar and control arm bushings, ovaled front upper frame side control arm bracket holes, and prematurely worn unit bearings.

It is not uncommon for the front trackbar bolts to be insufficiently torqued from the factory. Suspension bolts should be retorqued as part of the PDI at the dealer. The front trackbar bolts should be retorqued at every oil change interval.

I perceive that you are minimizing the importance of maintenance of the front end with an emphasis on the tires.

Out of balance tires is a speed dependent vibration that happens every time the vehicle reaches a given speed.

Death wobble is a random, violent oscillation that does not happen every time a given speed is reached. It requires a trigger. The oscillations cannot be driven out of by going faster. To cease the oscillations, the vehicle has to be slowed to almost a complete stop.


In the end, whether poor maintenance, worn parts, or improper installations are the primary cause, or if out of balance tires somehow cause trackbar bolts to loosen up from 125 ft lbs, damage the knuckle end of the drag link, etc., I am sure that you would agree that the steps to diagnose the source(s) of the death wobble are the same.

Right?
02-18-2014 09:24 PM
AlexInYT Sorry, I thought I caught this earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Tires can be a trigger/amplifier of Death Wobble, but by themselves they don't cause drag link ends to fail prematurely, tie rod ends to fail prematurely, front upper axle side control arm bushings to fail prematurely, lower ball joints to fail prematurely, trackbar bracket bolt holes to oval, trackbar bushings to fail prematurely, damages the steering box, etc., etc.
If there is an issue with the tire - balance, broken cord, uneven wear (all of which still winds up being the same core issue - rotational balance) then YES, tires can and do trigger faults in driveline. Consider, for a moment, what a tire is doing - even at 10MPH, its making what, couple hundred revolutions per minute? So you are talking a tire (never mind the rim!) that weighs anywhere from a low estimate of 40 pounds to upwards of 200; just plucking numbers here, Now you spin that while it is out-of-true. The human eye cannot visibly see it, but the vibrations coming off that unbalanced component are going to wear the hell out of the closely related components. This is why we rubber mount engines, because they DO vibrate so intensely. Suspension components and tires, however, are designed in theory to be causing/receiving much less sustained long term vibrations. Dont forget - we only see the 'up and down' shudder because that is the path of least resistance for the momentum to transfer to - the momentum is trying to go the entire circumference of the tire's rotation (IE front to back and all the wonderful angles in between.)

Quote:
The problem here is semantics. Death Wobble is not speed dependent. It is random, and requires a trigger of some kind to initiate the oscillations.
Not speed dependent? There has to be speed present - momentum - for the wobble to occur. The higher the speed, the more severe the wobble. So, no, I am afraid I will simply state you as being incorrect there.
Quote:
You are confusing bad shimmies and wobbles from bad tires with Death Wobble.
While they can be, and often are, readily confused; end result is the same - loss of stability potentially leading to loss of vehicle control. Both require correct diagnosis to repair the problem and ensure that it is not simply 'hidden under new parts'.

Quote:
Repeated episodes of Death Wobble destroy the entire front end and can literally rip trackbar brackets off the axle and frame.
And if one replaces the entire front end, frame and every bolt and nut on there, but puts the same tires with an un-caught issue; guess whatll be back? Not right away, perhaps not in a few months even - but it WILL come back.
Quote:
Although not always, Death Wobble usually starts with improperly torqued trackbar bolts. The resulting Death Wobble ovals the bracket bolt holes, destroys the drag link end at the steering knuckle, destroys the lower ball joints, and keeps on going through the rest of the front end components.
And I am not arguing any of that; I wholly agree. However; I make a very crystal clear point of ensuring that 'remove radiator cap-replace truck' does not occur.
Quote:
Do you really believe that running a load range C tire on a 5000 lbs JK is going to be the sole cause of ovaled trackbar bracket holes and destroyed lower ball joints?
IF, again, IF the tire has an undiagnosed issue regarding balance, yes; it can and will be the start the problems. Ive seen it, on the professional field. Ive seen vehicles come in, front end in pieces, all new components be installed but the tires ignored; only to have the customer come back in short order complaining the DW is either back or never left. Why? because they dont want to face to the fact that their 2000$+ tires they 'scored' are 5 ounces out of balance and wont believe the tech when the tech tries to explain to them what caused the damage to begin with. "But they LOOK ok!?!"
Quote:
If we were on cumminsforum, and you were saying that running a load range D BFG all terrain tire on a 1 ton crew cab truck can contribute to issues, I would agree with you. However, we are talking about 4000-5500 lbs jeeps.
You are quoting, in shorthand, exactly what I started off with explaining. What you are neglecting to note, however, is how much lighter in construction the front end of Jeeps are -- while the tires themselves;not so much; especially not if we start talking above-factory-sized tires here. Hell, how many tires do people run that are taller - and heavier (In mass not construction) - than what Mopar puts on stock 1 tons?

The entire point of me hammering on this is I am well aware of how these sweethearts work - and how much lighter they are when compared to their heavy brethren. Given the less mass and less rigidity in construction a Jeep front end is compared to a truck (virtually any truck), such makes Jeeps considerably more prone to a problem caused by a 'less amount of issue' that stems from the rubbers themselves. Again, I am not saying 'I automatically rule it to be tires' or 'I automatically ignore the front end'. I am stating that if a thorough inspection of a front end reveals no wear, play, looseness or damage in the suspension components; that it is at that time tires need to be looked at with a fine tooth comb; and, even IF there is damage found with the suspension; the tires still require a proper inspection. That means air pressure, balance, rim and tire true, and even composition of the tires themselves; if it goes that far.

Not trying to be a here; but simply offer some experienced; hard earned on pro's playing field.
02-08-2014 10:57 PM
planman
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexInYT View Post
Yea I am afraid I am going to have to disagree on that; having seen tires be the direct and sole cause in many multiple units. Are they always the sole cause? No. Can they be? Absolutely. As I said; I saw literally dozens of examples of this on heavier units in particular; and as such must be examined in detail. If the tires are of insufficient rigidity/integrity; then they can be a sole cause; and absolutely amplify other issues should the unit have them.
Tires can be a trigger/amplifier of Death Wobble, but by themselves they don't cause drag link ends to fail prematurely, tie rod ends to fail prematurely, front upper axle side control arm bushings to fail prematurely, lower ball joints to fail prematurely, trackbar bracket bolt holes to oval, trackbar bushings to fail prematurely, damages the steering box, etc., etc.

The problem here is semantics. Death Wobble is not speed dependent. It is random, and requires a trigger of some kind to initiate the oscillations.

You are confusing bad shimmies and wobbles from bad tires with Death Wobble.

Repeated episodes of Death Wobble destroy the entire front end and can literally rip trackbar brackets off the axle and frame.

Although not always, Death Wobble usually starts with improperly torqued trackbar bolts. The resulting Death Wobble ovals the bracket bolt holes, destroys the drag link end at the steering knuckle, destroys the lower ball joints, and keeps on going through the rest of the front end components.

Do you really believe that running a load range C tire on a 5000 lbs JK is going to be the sole cause of ovaled trackbar bracket holes and destroyed lower ball joints?

If we were on cumminsforum, and you were saying that running a load range D BFG all terrain tire on a 1 ton crew cab truck can contribute to issues, I would agree with you. However, we are talking about 4000-5500 lbs jeeps.
02-08-2014 09:14 PM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexInYT View Post
Yea I am afraid I am going to have to disagree on that; having seen tires be the direct and sole cause in many multiple units. Are they always the sole cause? No. Can they be? Absolutely. As I said; I saw literally dozens of examples of this on heavier units in particular; and as such must be examined in detail. If the tires are of insufficient rigidity/integrity; then they can be a sole cause; and absolutely amplify other issues should the unit have them.
Did you read PlanMan's repost ?
02-08-2014 09:00 PM
AlexInYT
Quote:
Originally Posted by spinlock View Post
I will spare everyone from quoting the AlexinYT's post again.


To address you minor correction. The purpose of the steering damper is to dampen (convert mechanical energy to heat) high frequency (minor bumps) impacts to protect extend the life of the steering joints and reduce annoying vibration in the steering wheel. Although you can eliminate them you will cause higher stress on the ball joints which can eventually lead to DW.

To your second point. I agree with your observations but in every case you were observing the effects not the root causes.Tires are not the root cause of DW. The tires induce the DW but the same exact tires will not produce DW on a healthy steering and suspension (stable) system. DW occurs because a disturbance, created by the tires because they are the only point of contact on the road (hopefully )creates a series of oscillations in the steering system that cannot be naturally dampened by the steering and suspension systems. Wheels that are out of balance or out of round continue to feed the oscillation as they rotate. The larger the tire and faster they are rotating, the stronger and more frequent the oscillation. It is a classic example of an underdamped system that becomes unstable. In this case it is unstable because of loose joints.

The welded joint system that KJeeper describes would effectively be immune from this type of instability. Planman's whole methodical process is to find and eliminate the root cause. I think we all agree to start by checking the tires because they will make matters worse but they are not the root cause.

Yea I am afraid I am going to have to disagree on that; having seen tires be the direct and sole cause in many multiple units. Are they always the sole cause? No. Can they be? Absolutely. As I said; I saw literally dozens of examples of this on heavier units in particular; and as such must be examined in detail. If the tires are of insufficient rigidity/integrity; then they can be a sole cause; and absolutely amplify other issues should the unit have them.
02-08-2014 11:56 AM
planman My phone app didn't keep the formatting.

Here is the written diagnosis checklist:

DIAGNOSIS CHECKLIST

Assuming your tire psi is 28-30, your tires/wheels have been balanced and rotated to make sure the wobble doesn't move with the rotation, here would be my order:

  1. Remove the steering stabilizer.
  2. Have someone turn the engine on and turn slowly from full lock to full lock while I visually, manually (with my hands on the components), and auditorily inspect for any play in the tie rod ends, drag link ends, sector shaft, trackbar ends/bolts/brackets, and trackbar bracket welds.
  3. Then, do the same thing but with short, sharp, quick back and forth turns of the steering wheel between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions, instead of the slow, lock to lock approach.
  4. Then, I would remove the front trackbar to inspect the bolt holes for ovaling and inspect the trackbar bushings for separation or cracking with a long screw driver through the bolt sleeve and the trackbar in a vise to leverage against the bushing in all directions. If all is good, I would reinstall the trackbar with the tires on the ground at ride height to 125 lbs.
  5. Then, I would inspect the drag link end joints by using a large channel lock wrench that gave me enough leverage to check for up and down play in the drag link ends. There should not be any meaningful up and down play. If there is, the ends should be replaced, or a new drag link with heavy duty joints should be installed. After, I would check the torque of the drag link ends. Taller lifts magnify the problems of bad drag link ends.
  6. Then, I would inspect the tie rod ends with the channel lock wrench for up and down movement. There should be no meaningful up and down play. There should only be rotational movement in the joint end.
  7. Then, I would put the front axle on jack stands with the tires about 2" off the ground and check the front ball joints by using a long pry bar as a lever under the front tires to lift them up to inspect for up and down play in the lower ball joints. There shouldn't be more than maybe 1-2 mm.
  8. Then, I would grab the top of the tire with both hands and push it towards the frame and pull it away from the frame to inspect for lateral movement of the top ball joints. There shouldn't be any.
  9. Then, I would remove the front tires/wheels and remove the front tie rod--one knuckle at a time. Then with a large wrench or vice grips, I would inspect the end for side to side play. Then I would reinstall the end and torque to spec and repeat on the other side.
  10. Then, I would remove the brake calipers and brake disks to inspect the unitbearings for play.
  11. Then, I would reinstall the discs, brake calipers, and tires/wheels and set the axle back on the ground.
  12. Then, I would support but not lift the front axle with a floor jack and loosen the front control arm bolts (upper and lower on the axle side). One at a time, I would drop the control arms to inspect the bolt holes and bushings (similar to with the trackbar), reinstall without torquing, and do the next one.
  13. Next, I would inspect the sector shaft that comes out of the steering box for cracking or twisting.
  14. Then, I would take a test drive without the steering stablizer to feel for any wobbles.
  15. Finally, I would reinstall the steering stablizer or spring $40 for a heavy duty steering stablizer.
If this front end inspection does not diagnose and/or solve it, then I would move to an alignment.
  1. I would use adjustable lower front control arms to set my caster spec between 4 and 5 degrees--with a cross caster that has less on the driver side than the passenger side. I would personally not do more or less, with a target around 4.5-4.7 degrees caster.
  2. If my camber is out of spec, but it is not due to failed ball joints, I would install offset ball joints to get my camber in spec.
  3. I would set my toe-in to spec on the machine--which is about a 1/16"-1/8" toe-in depending on tire size.
  4. If my front to rear alignment is off, I would install rear lower adjustable control arms to fix this.
Also, I recommend you switch out your stock 14 mm trackbar bolts for 9/16" grade 8 bolts.

See the following video for more information:

YouTube - Common Source of Death Wobble


With all this, I highly doubt you do not find the source.

The last ditch thing if there is a non-DW, speed dependent range wobble, I would borrow a different set of wheels and tires to see if it changes, and I would try driving it with no front driveshaft to see if that changes anything.

Although it is always a good idea to inspect your axle shaft u-joints, they will not cause DW.

The most common sources of full on DW are:
  • Improperly torqued trackbar bolts
  • Damaged trackbar and control arm bushings because bolts were torqued on a car lift or while the vehicle was not at ride height with the tires on the ground. When you torque trackbar and control arm bolts, the bracket pinches the bolt sleeve in the bushing, as well as the bushing itself. If this is at a geometry other than actual ride height, the bushings are twisted/bound/pre-loaded, and they will eventually fail/separate/etc. If you have a flex joint end, this does not apply for that end.
  • Ovaled out trackbar bracket holes due to DW episodes from loose bolts.
02-08-2014 11:00 AM
planman AlexInYT,

I recommend running a steering stabilizer, but they fail prematurely when they can no longer mask the source(s) of the problem, and it is easier to diagnose the source(s) of the problems with the stabilizer removed.

I agree that components will wear longer with a good steering stabilizer, but if a jeep cannot drive wobble/shimmy free with the stabilizer removed, something is wrong.

Dealerships that don't do a thorough diagnosis and simply slap on a heavier steering stabilizer are a big problem.

Maybe when you read my inspection checklist again, you'll see that the very first thing, before it even starts, mentions the tires, and one of the last things has to do with the tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
DIAGNOSIS CHECKLIST Assuming your tire psi is 28-30, your tires/wheels have been balanced and rotated to make sure the wobble doesn't move with the rotation, here would be my order:[*]Remove the steering stabilizer.[*]Have someone turn the engine on and turn slowly from full lock to full lock while I visually, manually (with my hands on the components), and auditorily inspect for any play in the tie rod ends, drag link ends, sector shaft, trackbar ends/bolts/brackets, and trackbar bracket welds.[*]Then, do the same thing but with short, sharp, quick back and forth turns of the steering wheel between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions, instead of the slow, lock to lock approach.[*]Then, I would remove the front trackbar to inspect the bolt holes for ovaling and inspect the trackbar bushings for separation or cracking with a long screw driver through the bolt sleeve and the trackbar in a vise to leverage against the bushing in all directions. If all is good, I would reinstall the trackbar with the tires on the ground at ride height to 125 lbs.[*]Then, I would inspect the drag link end joints by using a large channel lock wrench that gave me enough leverage to check for up and down play in the drag link ends. There should not be any meaningful up and down play. If there is, the ends should be replaced, or a new drag link with heavy duty joints should be installed. After, I would check the torque of the drag link ends. Taller lifts magnify the problems of bad drag link ends.[*]Then, I would inspect the tie rod ends with the channel lock wrench for up and down movement. There should be no meaningful up and down play. There should only be rotational movement in the joint end.[*]Then, I would put the front axle on jack stands with the tires about 2" off the ground and check the front ball joints by using a long pry bar as a lever under the front tires to lift them up to inspect for up and down play in the lower ball joints. There shouldn't be more than maybe 1-2 mm.[*]Then, I would grab the top of the tire with both hands and push it towards the frame and pull it away from the frame to inspect for lateral movement of the top ball joints. There shouldn't be any.[*]Then, I would remove the front tires/wheels and remove the front tie rod--one knuckle at a time. Then with a large wrench or vice grips, I would inspect the end for side to side play. Then I would reinstall the end and torque to spec and repeat on the other side.[*]Then, I would remove the brake calipers and brake disks to inspect the unitbearings for play.[*]Then, I would reinstall the discs, brake calipers, and tires/wheels and set the axle back on the ground.[*]Then, I would support but not lift the front axle with a floor jack and loosen the front control arm bolts (upper and lower on the axle side). One at a time, I would drop the control arms to inspect the bolt holes and bushings (similar to with the trackbar), reinstall without torquing, and do the next one.[*]Next, I would inspect the sector shaft that comes out of the steering box for cracking or twisting.[*]Then, I would take a test drive without the steering stablizer to feel for any wobbles.[*]Finally, I would reinstall the steering stablizer or spring $40 for a heavy duty steering stablizer. If this front end inspection does not diagnose and/or solve it, then I would move to an alignment.[*]I would use adjustable lower front control arms to set my caster spec between 4 and 5 degrees--with a cross caster that has less on the driver side than the passenger side. I would personally not do more or less, with a target around 4.5-4.7 degrees caster.[*]If my camber is out of spec, but it is not due to failed ball joints, I would install offset ball joints to get my camber in spec.[*]I would set my toe-in to spec on the machine--which is about a 1/16"-1/8" toe-in depending on tire size.[*]If my front to rear alignment is off, I would install rear lower adjustable control arms to fix this. Also, I recommend you switch out your stock 14 mm trackbar bolts for 9/16" grade 8 bolts. See the following video for more information: YouTube - Common Source of Death Wobble With all this, I highly doubt you do not find the source. The last ditch thing if there is a non-DW, speed dependent range wobble, I would borrow a different set of wheels and tires to see if it changes, and I would try driving it with no front driveshaft to see if that changes anything. Although it is always a good idea to inspect your axle shaft u-joints, they will not cause DW. The most common sources of full on DW are:[*]Improperly torqued trackbar bolts[*]Damaged trackbar and control arm bushings because bolts were torqued on a car lift or while the vehicle was not at ride height with the tires on the ground. When you torque trackbar and control arm bolts, the bracket pinches the bolt sleeve in the bushing, as well as the bushing itself. If this is at a geometry other than actual ride height, the bushings are twisted/bound/pre-loaded, and they will eventually fail/separate/etc. If you have a flex joint end, this does not apply for that end.[*]Ovaled out trackbar bracket holes due to DW episodes from loose bolts.
02-08-2014 04:43 AM
spinlock I will spare everyone from quoting the AlexinYT's post again.


To address you minor correction. The purpose of the steering damper is to dampen (convert mechanical energy to heat) high frequency (minor bumps) impacts to protect extend the life of the steering joints and reduce annoying vibration in the steering wheel. Although you can eliminate them you will cause higher stress on the ball joints which can eventually lead to DW.

To your second point. I agree with your observations but in every case you were observing the effects not the root causes.Tires are not the root cause of DW. The tires induce the DW but the same exact tires will not produce DW on a healthy steering and suspension (stable) system. DW occurs because a disturbance, created by the tires because they are the only point of contact on the road (hopefully )creates a series of oscillations in the steering system that cannot be naturally dampened by the steering and suspension systems. Wheels that are out of balance or out of round continue to feed the oscillation as they rotate. The larger the tire and faster they are rotating, the stronger and more frequent the oscillation. It is a classic example of an underdamped system that becomes unstable. In this case it is unstable because of loose joints.

The welded joint system that KJeeper describes would effectively be immune from this type of instability. Planman's whole methodical process is to find and eliminate the root cause. I think we all agree to start by checking the tires because they will make matters worse but they are not the root cause.
02-08-2014 03:24 AM
kjeeper10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexInYT View Post
Hi Planman, Wanted to say firstly; pretty good diagnosis overall. I wanted to clarify one minor and one fairly major thing however - The minor thing is the purpose of the steering damper/shock. Its job in life simple - dampen down the road impulses transmitted from the tires, into the suspension; and ultimately up into the drivers hands. Yes, a vehicle can be driven without them; and indeed most heavier equipment dont have them, but for such a light vehicle and light axle and components; they are fairly necessary. Now, on to the main issue. I wholly agree with the concept of thoroughly inspecting the entire front end of a vehicle experiencing any kind of shimmy or death wobble; particularly with the issues of the track bar and similar. However. The singularly most overlooked component in all this - and I am afraid you too missed this one - is the tires themselves. If the entire front end has been gone over, and no looseness, wear, or issues have been found - and indeed, even AFTER faults have been found and repaired - the singularly most common thing missed are the tires. What happens is this - the front axles on these jeeps are NOT particularly heavily built. We arent talking Dana 70s here. So, while they will happily live forever after on the tire size, weight, and design that the factory came up with; putting on ANY larger tire simply exacerbates any issue the suspension may have - and if the tire itself goes out of balance, out of round, is unevenly wore, damaged etc in any way; that rotational energy gets transmitted into a component that was never designed with that severe of stress in mind. Let me explain on a larger scale just how critical tires are. I worked for almost 5 years in a Chrysler dealership, as I took my Red Seal Automotive Service Technician apprenticeship. During this, I spent over two of those years on the alignment rack. During this time, for some reason or another the tire shops and the dealerships got together to offer tire deals for the 3/4 ton and 1 ton single wheel trucks. So, we would put on these tires - I wont state which breed they were - and were soon inundated with complaints of 'death wobble'. And indeed; the customers were not BSing us - these were literally brand new trucks, less than 100 miles on their clocks most often; that would DW literally uncontrollably if they went over rail tracks or similar bad roads (which, in Alberta; is prettymuch everywhere). Very perplexing; for the first bit. I personally went over many of these trucks; top to bottom left to right; hell, I even went and deliberately overtorqued every fastener on one truck by 25% just to prove it was not a suspension issue. Mysteriously, these problems all vanished without a trace - when the factory installed tires were reinstalled on these trucks. What was the problem? The tires supplied by the tire shops were of 'Load Range D' rating with a max pressure of 65PSI; where as the tires from the factory - and indeed, stated specifically on the door stickers of every new truck - were of 'Load Range E' rating with a max pressure of 80PSI. (The trucks all called for a pressure rating of 70PSI on the front and 80PSI rear; all pressure ratings on cold tires.) The confusing thing was; while the weight rating was correct - the ply rating AND the tire pressure rating were insufficient. In other words, the tires themselves were too light a composition for the trucks that they were under. You dont want to know the storm that occurred when I brought this forward. It actually went to the point that I took one truck that exhibited the condition rather dramatically, took my shop foreman, customer, AND the shop owner for a drive with the aftermarket tires, then while they watched, I balanced all four of the aftermarket tires to prove they were in balance and not otherwise having issues, broke all four down, placed back on the factory tires onto the factory rims, balanced, mounted and torqued them, took them for a drive - and the wobble was GONE. Very much ensued. From then on, I made a point of ensuring that, after a complete front end inspection to eliminate any wear, the tires of any vehicle that the customer complained of a DW on met or exceeded the rating called for by the vehicle's specs - including tire pressure. (I will note that your calling for 28-30PSI is in fact low; 32 is usually minimum; my own '13 Jeep being 37PSI.) To summarize - absolutely; ensure to eliminate any potential faults with the suspension components - but never, ever rule out tires themselves. Pressure, balance, wear, and rating. Hope that is of some help to everyone; and good work otherwise Planman!
While I agree tires can cause issues, not full blown death wobble. The problem, some peoples description of DW.
DW is slung around-used as a description every time somebody has problems. DW is very specific. I've never experienced it, but seen plenty of videos on Youtube.. The axle is constrained by the track bar and 4 control arms. If all 6 points were welded solid (hypothetically speaking here) you could be driving on eggs for tires. There's going to be issues for sure, but not a DW.
Same with the steering SS. Both contributors, not direct causes.
02-07-2014 10:37 PM
AlexInYT Hi Planman, Wanted to say firstly; pretty good diagnosis overall. I wanted to clarify one minor and one fairly major thing however -

The minor thing is the purpose of the steering damper/shock. Its job in life simple - dampen down the road impulses transmitted from the tires, into the suspension; and ultimately up into the drivers hands. Yes, a vehicle can be driven without them; and indeed most heavier equipment dont have them, but for such a light vehicle and light axle and components; they are fairly necessary.

Now, on to the main issue. I wholly agree with the concept of thoroughly inspecting the entire front end of a vehicle experiencing any kind of shimmy or death wobble; particularly with the issues of the track bar and similar. However. The singularly most overlooked component in all this - and I am afraid you too missed this one - is the tires themselves. If the entire front end has been gone over, and no looseness, wear, or issues have been found - and indeed, even AFTER faults have been found and repaired - the singularly most common thing missed are the tires. What happens is this - the front axles on these jeeps are NOT particularly heavily built. We arent talking Dana 70s here. So, while they will happily live forever after on the tire size, weight, and design that the factory came up with; putting on ANY larger tire simply exacerbates any issue the suspension may have - and if the tire itself goes out of balance, out of round, is unevenly wore, damaged etc in any way; that rotational energy gets transmitted into a component that was never designed with that severe of stress in mind.

Let me explain on a larger scale just how critical tires are. I worked for almost 5 years in a Chrysler dealership, as I took my Red Seal Automotive Service Technician apprenticeship. During this, I spent over two of those years on the alignment rack. During this time, for some reason or another the tire shops and the dealerships got together to offer tire deals for the 3/4 ton and 1 ton single wheel trucks. So, we would put on these tires - I wont state which breed they were - and were soon inundated with complaints of 'death wobble'. And indeed; the customers were not BSing us - these were literally brand new trucks, less than 100 miles on their clocks most often; that would DW literally uncontrollably if they went over rail tracks or similar bad roads (which, in Alberta; is prettymuch everywhere). Very perplexing; for the first bit. I personally went over many of these trucks; top to bottom left to right; hell, I even went and deliberately overtorqued every fastener on one truck by 25% just to prove it was not a suspension issue. Mysteriously, these problems all vanished without a trace - when the factory installed tires were reinstalled on these trucks.

What was the problem?

The tires supplied by the tire shops were of 'Load Range D' rating with a max pressure of 65PSI; where as the tires from the factory - and indeed, stated specifically on the door stickers of every new truck - were of 'Load Range E' rating with a max pressure of 80PSI. (The trucks all called for a pressure rating of 70PSI on the front and 80PSI rear; all pressure ratings on cold tires.) The confusing thing was; while the weight rating was correct - the ply rating AND the tire pressure rating were insufficient. In other words, the tires themselves were too light a composition for the trucks that they were under.

You dont want to know the storm that occurred when I brought this forward. It actually went to the point that I took one truck that exhibited the condition rather dramatically, took my shop foreman, customer, AND the shop owner for a drive with the aftermarket tires, then while they watched, I balanced all four of the aftermarket tires to prove they were in balance and not otherwise having issues, broke all four down, placed back on the factory tires onto the factory rims, balanced, mounted and torqued them, took them for a drive - and the wobble was GONE.

Very much ensued.

From then on, I made a point of ensuring that, after a complete front end inspection to eliminate any wear, the tires of any vehicle that the customer complained of a DW on met or exceeded the rating called for by the vehicle's specs - including tire pressure. (I will note that your calling for 28-30PSI is in fact low; 32 is usually minimum; my own '13 Jeep being 37PSI.)

To summarize - absolutely; ensure to eliminate any potential faults with the suspension components - but never, ever rule out tires themselves. Pressure, balance, wear, and rating.

Hope that is of some help to everyone; and good work otherwise Planman!
01-06-2014 08:48 PM
tabber02 .
01-06-2014 08:47 PM
tabber02
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee indy View Post
swapped out tie rod ends this weekend.
shimmy completely gone
01-06-2014 03:41 PM
planman
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBB609 View Post
So I tried my best to read through and follow this thread but a couple of questions. . . has jeep fixed this yet? on new 2014 models is Jeep still using the incorrect, 14mm bolts or have they worked through this fix? also can we have specifics on which bolts to change out and where to source the correct ones? also how high of a chance does this happen and is there anything like modding/ lifting my Jeep that could make this more susceptible to happening?? Thank you
If you retorque your control arm and trackbar bolts at every oil change interval, you should not have problems until you have steering parts wear out.

If you want to upgrade bolts, you'd buy the Northridge4x4 bolt kit as part of a $100 order to get free shipping.

Properly designed and installed lifts do not contribute to DW.

DW is from poor maintenance, worn parts, and/or improper installs.
01-06-2014 08:19 AM
lee indy swapped out tie rod ends this weekend.
shimmy completely gone
01-05-2014 05:37 PM
JBB609 So I tried my best to read through and follow this thread but a couple of questions. . . has jeep fixed this yet? on new 2014 models is Jeep still using the incorrect, 14mm bolts or have they worked through this fix? also can we have specifics on which bolts to change out and where to source the correct ones? also how high of a chance does this happen and is there anything like modding/ lifting my Jeep that could make this more susceptible to happening??

Thank you
01-02-2014 11:53 AM
Bluect thanks for the great post on DW. Very helpful.
12-28-2013 12:33 PM
Sasquatchewan I don't look to bad with smaller wheels
12-28-2013 12:26 PM
Sasquatchewan I have a 2011 JKRU & have heavy 35" tires & wheels XD 17"by 9" very well balanced with no issues for 20,000 mi but my son had some 2011 bark grey rubicon take off's so I swapped wheels because I was going on a 5 HR trip pulling a boat also so I took it for a spin & at 40 to 50mph bad death wobble but if you shoot past that speed it gets ok anyway had a expert balance the tires & it's perfect now with 0 issues so never forget the simple stuff my sons jeep had it bad at 40mph & found that his track bar wasn't tight enough cured his issues I'll probably buy a bolt kit some time but if it ait broke don't fix it
12-28-2013 11:41 AM
Up Hill Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Metal fatigues and bolts stretch. As the suspension cycles and vibrates, things work their way loose.

This is why it makes sense to retorque the trackbar bolts at every oil change interval and all bolts after every major wheeling trip.

I'd suggest that you retorque the rest of your bolts as well.

Thanks. Will do.
12-28-2013 10:42 AM
planman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Up Hill Bill View Post
Checked torque on front trackbar bolts today. One was about 110 and the other about 115 ft. lbs. Corrected to a full 125 ft. lbs. each. This is the first time I've checked since purchased new in 2011. May have been under-torqued at factory, or maybe they've been working loose? Plan to check about every oil change or so in the future.......
Metal fatigues and bolts stretch. As the suspension cycles and vibrates, things work their way loose.

This is why it makes sense to retorque the trackbar bolts at every oil change interval and all bolts after every major wheeling trip.

I'd suggest that you retorque the rest of your bolts as well.
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