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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-16-2012 11:15 AM
NotURMailman I'll go ahead and bring this thread back from the dead with a question: Suppose you egged out hole for the lower balljoint which caused it to lose the press fit, due to the upper ball joint coming apart and the inner and outer shafts breaking while attempting a steep rocky climb, ripping the lower ball joint out of the C at an angle; I'm thinking the only fix for this is a new inner C (Or more likely ditch the LP30 for an HP30 and re-use my current locker). Unless there is some magic fix for this that I'm not imagining...
02-17-2012 09:07 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipleadda2nd View Post
God this thread is important! I love information that negates the purpose of some of those products out there.
That is one of the perks of wheeling in JV for so many years. If there is a way to break it, wear it out, tear it up or expose any weakness your rig has, it will be done out there if you play there long enough and sometimes, it's not even that long.

We have ruined at least 3 inner C's that I'm aware of in our group or extended group. All were done doing recoveries on rigs with broken parts in the front that require lots of winch work, tugging and towing to get them back to camp.

None of them had bent C's, just egged out holes for the upper balljoint which caused them to lose the press fit.

We've never ruined an inner C that I'm aware of that wasn't on a rig being recovered, so I don't see what good any bracing will do to prevent the most common failure.

Bear in mind we aren't hitting the trails with a lot of wheel spin, so different types of wheeling in other parts of the world may change what fails.
02-17-2012 06:27 PM
MikalCarbine Ya this definitely saved me some time, effort and above all money
02-17-2012 04:17 PM
ipleadda2nd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
Inner C gussets are a waste of time on the TJ and XJ inner C. By the time they do you any good, you've already ruined the inner C by egging out the upper balljoint hole far enough to lose the press fit.
God this thread is important! I love information that negates the purpose of some of those products out there.
02-16-2012 03:35 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
I'll probably be in the same boat if these crap out early. I heard the MOOG is crap too

What's your opinion on inner C gussets
Inner C gussets are a waste of time on the TJ and XJ inner C. By the time they do you any good, you've already ruined the inner C by egging out the upper balljoint hole far enough to lose the press fit.
02-16-2012 01:53 PM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes

We heard good things too which is why we tried them after killing two sets of Moog on the same rig in less than 10,000 miles. The 3rd set is XRF and it's dead and needs to be swapped.

The same rig got 90,000 out of the OEM stuff. We went back to Spicer until we get a feel for how long the Synergy stuff is lasting.
I'll probably be in the same boat if these crap out early. I heard the MOOG is crap too

What's your opinion on inner C gussets
02-16-2012 08:58 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
Wompp wompp and I heard good things about em haha

What do you prefer? I was interested in the Synergy Suspension but they had a big price point, I guess in the long run now I'll be paying more if these do die within 10k miles
We heard good things too which is why we tried them after killing two sets of Moog on the same rig in less than 10,000 miles. The 3rd set is XRF and it's dead and needs to be swapped.

The same rig got 90,000 out of the OEM stuff. We went back to Spicer until we get a feel for how long the Synergy stuff is lasting.
02-15-2012 07:37 PM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
Let us know how the XRF's do for you. We're not getting more than about 10000 miles out of them on 35's.
Wompp wompp and I heard good things about em haha

What do you prefer? I was interested in the Synergy Suspension but they had a big price point, I guess in the long run now I'll be paying more if these do die within 10k miles
02-15-2012 06:06 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
XRF balljoints and ZJ tie rod came in today

Just ordered some Timken hubs. Would anyone recommend against reusing old hub bolts and main hub nut if they appear to be in good condition?
Let us know how the XRF's do for you. We're not getting more than about 10000 miles out of them on 35's.
02-15-2012 05:18 PM
MikalCarbine XRF balljoints and ZJ tie rod came in today

Just ordered some Timken hubs. Would anyone recommend against reusing old hub bolts and main hub nut if they appear to be in good condition?
02-13-2012 09:06 PM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
For the TJ or XJ 30, I'd like to see a few examples of why you think they are needed? You do know that both of those are recent products and we've been running the High and Low pinion 30's in both of those rigs on 35's for a very long time with relatively few issues.

Personally, I believe both solve a problem that doesn't exist with enough or anywhere near enough frequency to justify their existence.


Problems with axles become well known in short order due to how fast information finds it way to the internet. Not always accurate, but generally very very fast. Take the 8.8 from the Explorer and ask about it's problems and how to solve them. In short order you will quickly get answers about it's width, offset pinion, disc brakes, what years it's from and why you need to weld the tubes to the diff casting.

Ask the same question about a HP 30 and no one says that you need to beef up the long side tube to keep it from breaking, flexing, bending, or otherwise needing much other than to run it as is.

The only reason a tube that goes inside the JK front axle even exists is due to how quickly folks bolted on tires that are a tad too large and then promptly cracked some of the earlier long side axle tubes in half.

It was cheaper and easier to slide a tube inside another tube than to do it right and either re-tube it with 3" tubes, or make a good truss for it.

I prefer the re-tube myself.

Pictures start on the second page-

Sleeving a JK Dana 44 Rubi front axle - JeepForum.com
That's some good information and lines up exactly with what Gerry said, would you categorize the inner C's in the same category - more internet hype? Or would those be worth reinforcing
02-13-2012 08:09 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
I do have an HPD30 and I'm building it as stated in the OP, what is your opinion on inner sleeving the axle tubes Mr Blaine? Also I'd be very interested in what you have to say about the press in Nitro sleeve vs a welded sleeve such as the Synergy Suspension
For the TJ or XJ 30, I'd like to see a few examples of why you think they are needed? You do know that both of those are recent products and we've been running the High and Low pinion 30's in both of those rigs on 35's for a very long time with relatively few issues.

Personally, I believe both solve a problem that doesn't exist with enough or anywhere near enough frequency to justify their existence.


Problems with axles become well known in short order due to how fast information finds it way to the internet. Not always accurate, but generally very very fast. Take the 8.8 from the Explorer and ask about it's problems and how to solve them. In short order you will quickly get answers about it's width, offset pinion, disc brakes, what years it's from and why you need to weld the tubes to the diff casting.

Ask the same question about a HP 30 and no one says that you need to beef up the long side tube to keep it from breaking, flexing, bending, or otherwise needing much other than to run it as is.

The only reason a tube that goes inside the JK front axle even exists is due to how quickly folks bolted on tires that are a tad too large and then promptly cracked some of the earlier long side axle tubes in half.

It was cheaper and easier to slide a tube inside another tube than to do it right and either re-tube it with 3" tubes, or make a good truss for it.

I prefer the re-tube myself.

Pictures start on the second page-

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/sl...-axle-1227882/
02-13-2012 06:54 PM
MikalCarbine Still looking for some knowledgeable input on the above
02-12-2012 10:31 AM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
The JK axleshafts are stronger, the front gears are stronger due to being HP, and I'd wager the locker is plenty strong for most, that said, the housing is no stronger than a TJ front of any iteration and uses the same diameter and wall thickness axle tube.

It is also a fair bit of work to get one done correctly into a TJ and I agree with your recommendation to just get an XJ axle and build it.
I do have an HPD30 and I'm building it as stated in the OP, what is your opinion on inner sleeving the axle tubes Mr Blaine? Also I'd be very interested in what you have to say about the press in Nitro sleeve vs a welded sleeve such as the Synergy Suspension
02-12-2012 10:07 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTJRod View Post
Looks like it would really help your tubes from bending. Exact same concept as sleeving tie rods. If it is a press fit it's not much different from having one welded in.

Would also like to point out that the JK axles are stronger than TJ axle and they went back to high pinions. It makes more sense to beef up JK axles than to beef up TJ axle. JK axles are 5" wider than TJ axle and are more prone to bending because of it. Your better off grabbing a HPD30 from an XJ and working on beefing up that one. They bolt right up.
The JK axleshafts are stronger, the front gears are stronger due to being HP, and I'd wager the locker is plenty strong for most, that said, the housing is no stronger than a TJ front of any iteration and uses the same diameter and wall thickness axle tube.

It is also a fair bit of work to get one done correctly into a TJ and I agree with your recommendation to just get an XJ axle and build it.
02-12-2012 10:05 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTJRod View Post
Only the spindle bearings and nuts would be interchangeable.
The inner grease seal in the end of the spindle, the spindle needle bearing, the slinger and the slinger seal set are also interchangeable.
02-11-2012 11:03 PM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTJRod View Post
Looks like it would really help your tubes from bending. Exact same concept as sleeving tie rods. If it is a press fit it's not much different from having one welded in.

Would also like to point out that the JK axles are stronger than TJ axle and they went back to high pinions. It makes more sense to beef up JK axles than to beef up TJ axle. JK axles are 5" wider than TJ axle and are more prone to bending because of it. Your better off grabbing a HPD30 from an XJ and working on beefing up that one. They bolt right up.
Exactly what I'm doing if you read OP

I might go with the Nitro sleeve for ease of install and then weld some C gussets and LCA reinforcements as a learning project once I pick up my welder. Save some money on labor for welding
02-11-2012 02:38 PM
TheTJRod Looks like it would really help your tubes from bending. Exact same concept as sleeving tie rods. If it is a press fit it's not much different from having one welded in.

Would also like to point out that the JK axles are stronger than TJ axle and they went back to high pinions. It makes more sense to beef up JK axles than to beef up TJ axle. JK axles are 5" wider than TJ axle and are more prone to bending because of it. Your better off grabbing a HPD30 from an XJ and working on beefing up that one. They bolt right up.
02-11-2012 10:48 AM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine
I'm curious as what you guys think about this...

Nitro dana 30 sleeve install - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

It is basically a sleeve with gritted ends that you simply hammer into the tubes. It seems to have some crazy tight tolerances and it's a bear to get it in. They make these for JKs but are willing to cut one to size for me. My question is, how can this even compare to the synergy suspension one that requires multiple welds?
Any opinions on this
02-10-2012 05:21 PM
AzTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipleadda2nd View Post
The Dana 30 spline count isn't the issue. It's the axles themselves. Get some good aftermarket axles (Chrome-Moly) if you don't want to worry about it. Also, sticking with 27 spline allows you to use factory axles in a pinch (obtained from a buddy, junk yard or parts store).
Look at the big brain on brad!

QFT!!
02-10-2012 04:54 PM
MikalCarbine I'm curious as what you guys think about this...

Nitro dana 30 sleeve install - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

It is basically a sleeve with gritted ends that you simply hammer into the tubes. It seems to have some crazy tight tolerances and it's a bear to get it in. They make these for JKs but are willing to cut one to size for me. My question is, how can this even compare to the synergy suspension one that requires multiple welds?
02-08-2012 10:05 PM
IndyJeepMan A truss, sleeve and gusset is a grand idea.

All of those, along with beefed up mounts and JJ housing joints itll be a pretty stout 30.
02-08-2012 08:13 PM
TheTJRod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
The tougher the trail, the more likely you'll find manual hubs and the more likely they use 30 spline axle shafts... as mine are and most of those I wheel with are. Broken hubs aren't problems on easier trails.

Let me guess, you are not running manual hubs.
By the time your running with those guys your not going to want the d30.

And I'm rebuilding a d44 with manual hubs. A guy in my group has warn 5x5.5 hubs on his XJ, another has a TJ with front and rear hubs.
02-08-2012 07:15 PM
MikalCarbine
Quote:
Originally Posted by netlohcs View Post
How much do a set of those 27 spline axleshafts cost?

Also, if you are doing the locker at the same time.... wouldn't you want to upgrade to some 30 spline shafts? If you were going to do it.. that would be the time.

I just installed ARBs front and rear and i'm wondering if I wont be kicking myself soon for not going to a 30 spline while I had the chance.
Front 27 splines are about $800 IIRC, I doubt the cost difference between them and 30 splines are much. The reason I am sticking with 27 splines has been stated by someone else on this thread, for easy spares. Jerry brings up good points about the 30 spline shafts but the area/group I wheel with would most likely be running 27 splines. I'll also have 2 full sets of spares (one from my stock d30 and another from the hpd30 I picked up). If I do break a shaft on the trail, I can swap it for my stock shafts, limp home, and return the broken shaft under Superior Axle's lifetime warranty (Evolution series only)

I was thinking more about sleeving the inner of my HPD30 and I talked to my welder, he said if I installed everything and delivered it to him, he'd weld it up cheap. This makes me wonder if this cheap insurance (probably $150 when all is said and done) is worth it? Would sleeves help reduce flex on the R+P or would only a true truss help that issue? If only a truss would help then I'll probably skip out on the sleeve...

For some reason I thought the warn hubs were cheap (~$250 each) but I think I was looking at a replacement hub and not the conversion kit. Wow the kit is expensive! Haha, I'd love to get it but right now I have other priorities I could dump another $1200+ into, like my SYE/TT setup. I definitely see the benefit and maybe in the future will attempt to run such a setup or just swap already hubbed axles
02-08-2012 03:56 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTJRod View Post
Just went to check the 5x5.5 kit. It is an upgraded 30 spline lockout and hub. Meaning only other people with upgraded lockout would have parts that you could use. Only the spindle bearings and nuts would be interchangeable.
The tougher the trail, the more likely you'll find manual hubs and the more likely they use 30 spline axle shafts... as mine are and most of those I wheel with are. Broken hubs aren't problems on easier trails.

Let me guess, you are not running manual hubs.
02-08-2012 03:52 PM
TheTJRod Just went to check the 5x5.5 kit. It is an upgraded 30 spline lockout and hub. Meaning only other people with upgraded lockout would have parts that you could use. Only the spindle bearings and nuts would be interchangeable.
02-08-2012 03:46 PM
TheTJRod Far more people have stock axle shafts with hubs for spares. Also the 5x4.5 hub is weaker than a 5x5.5 hub. If you get a 5x5.5, and it uses common 5x5.5 hub parts, I would easily believe that more people have those parts with them as tons of older 1/2-tons use them.

I still fully believe that spending $1400 on a hub conversion would be less cost effective than going to the junkyard and picking up a stock spare axle set with hubs for 50 bucks. Not to mention easier and faster to replace. Then even if going to 5x5.5 you have to change the rear bolt pattern to match and get 5 new wheels. More money.
02-08-2012 03:29 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTJRod View Post
I would drop the idea of getting warn hubs. The price will never justify the very slight gains.
The benefits to Warn hubs over Milemarker, Rugged Ridge, etc. are more than what many realize. Like if you need a hub part on the trail, you're far more likely to find Warn hub parts on the trail than if you have an off-brand like Milemarker or Rocky Ridge. And they've been around so long that most trails difficult enough that Warn hubs are common have guys on them that know how to fix anything on them on the trail. The couple times I've seen a broken hub on some of the scarier trails, parts and help was immediately available from multiple wheelers. That very likely wouldn't be the case with other brands.

Similar to someone I was wheeling with on my last trail who got stuck. He discovered he had left his winch controller at home. A couple of us walked up to offer our Warn winch hand controllers and could only go 'oh' when we saw it had some strange connector that no one had a controller that would have fit. It wouldn't have been a problem if it had been a Warn.

There's something to be said for running with what is most commonly found on the trail.
02-08-2012 12:44 PM
TheTJRod Swapping to 30 spline outer axles also requires you to get specially made 30 spline wheel bearing hubs. If your worried about axle flex you could get some wide steel bars and weld them to the housing and passenger CA mount or better yet 2x4 rectangular tubing. Would also plate the LCA mounts on the axle as they are prone to bending or ripping off and get a beating every outing.

I would drop the idea of getting warn hubs. The price will never justify the very slight gains.

A pic of what a guy in my club did.


02-08-2012 12:05 PM
ipleadda2nd
Quote:
Originally Posted by netlohcs View Post
How much do a set of those 27 spline axleshafts cost?

Also, if you are doing the locker at the same time.... wouldn't you want to upgrade to some 30 spline shafts? If you were going to do it.. that would be the time.

I just installed ARBs front and rear and i'm wondering if I wont be kicking myself soon for not going to a 30 spline while I had the chance.
The Dana 30 spline count isn't the issue. It's the axles themselves. Get some good aftermarket axles (Chrome-Moly) if you don't want to worry about it. Also, sticking with 27 spline allows you to use factory axles in a pinch (obtained from a buddy, junk yard or parts store).
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