|05-27-2012 12:18 AM|
My DW write-up and inspection checklist thread has about 26k views here:
28k views on jeepforum.com:
Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles - JeepForum.com
14k views on jkowners.com:
Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
About 61k views on jk-forum.com:
Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles
I'm hoping that 1/2 or more people with a JK who have experienced DW or knows someone who has experienced DW have read post #1 and the inspection checklist (usually in post #2).
When it happens on stock JKs, it is most often due to improper torque specs of the trackbar and/or other components due to poor maintenance and poor pre-delivery inspection proceedures at the dealer.
Regarding fires, NHTSA said in documents that it had received 14 complaints of Wrangler fires from the other model years than 2010s that were built before July 14, 2010.
There have been about 300,000 2007-2009 JKs sold in the US and Canada--with 14 reported fires.
DW is very rare. Fires are even more rare.
|05-26-2012 11:07 PM|
|05-26-2012 02:28 PM|
I haven't yet encountered anyone who using my write-up checklist hasn't been able to diagnose and fix it.
Your dealer techs are incompetent.
The tranny overheating issue was hoses that leaked and incorrect gearing for larger tires. Also easy to fix.
Out of the 100s of thousands of JKs on the road, how many have burst into flames?
I own 2 TJs and 3 JKs, and I would never trade down a JK to a TJ.
|05-26-2012 12:13 AM|
|JeepandMud||Saw this and listened to the video and all I gotta say is that it's not always the jeep's fault. The jeep has done very well safety wise and I agree with a lot of you in that if the jeep is not maintained properly, yea there's gonna be some issues, just like with any other vehicle. Jeeps are meant to be driven where the asphalt ends and the dirt, rocks, and mud begins. It's why when I go on road trips I rent a vehicle that can handle the highway better.|
|05-25-2012 11:08 PM|
|05-25-2012 08:08 PM|
|Black Magic Brakes||
If you care to check into it, simply type the following into Google- Land Rover Death Wobble. I suspect if you were to read in full all of the hits that show up, we might not hear from you for quite some time.
|05-25-2012 07:58 PM|
It is not a design flaw that people neglect the maintenance of their jeeps.
The real flaw is that Chrysler doesn't properly train its dealer techs.
|05-25-2012 04:16 PM|
|SIXTI||Death wobble is caused by so many different things that its sickening. Chrysler should engineer Jeep suspensions better. I've never heard of a Landrover doing the death wobble.|
|05-25-2012 09:03 AM|
|Black Magic Brakes||
The trackbar is what the steering draglink reacts against to turn the wheels.
|05-25-2012 08:43 AM|
"I've experienced it hundreds of times and even to this day, the heart, it definitely pounds," mechanic Scott Forbes, who specializes in Jeeps said. He believes the problem is most often caused by the track bar, an integral part of the steering system.
Mr Forbes specializes in Jeeps and says a trac bar is part of the steering system, OK then.
|05-25-2012 08:27 AM|
|cphilip||I had it about 3-4 times total in maybe 8 years on a 2001 F350 7.3L Powerstroke Diesel Crew Cab Dually I used to have. Would take a particular pot hole hit to make it start. Always about 35 or 40 mph. Slowing down and hard braking (which was the normal reaction anyway) would bring it right out of it. Happened on several sets or tires but the same type and brand. My alignment suspension guy could not ever find a cause and it would go a year or more without the condition occurring again. Never found out why it did it. But it was rather rare for that truck. And never at real high speed either. I have heard of other Superduty owners experiencing it. No one has ever found any singular cause. A steering damper change has been reported to fix it.|
|05-25-2012 07:36 AM|
|Black Magic Brakes||
The connection can be proper even if the hole is 1" and the fastener shank is 1/8" as long as it can develop the proper clamping force between the faying surfaces when torqued to the proper value to achieve that.
It is the clamping force from the torque that keeps the connection viable, not the fastener size and swapping 9/16's for 14mm won't fix or help the problem and that is very easy to test. Put in whatever bolt you think is best and don't tighten it properly and see what has been fixed.
14mm = .551, 9/16= .562 or less than half the thickness of a common business card on either side. That is simply not the issue, the loss of torque is.
|05-24-2012 11:24 PM|
Read this thread: http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/the...ts-128154.html
Watch this video:
Common source of death wobble on Jeep JK Wranglers - YouTube
|05-22-2012 09:06 PM|
|DeepSouthJeeper||Planman, you said something about the mount on the axel getting worn out and larger than it should be. I'm assuming this part wasn't a jk only thing, but what would you have to do to fix that? Also, thanks for posting that!! I have read a good deal about DW, but I learned a lot from that.|
|05-22-2012 09:03 PM|
|Dusty Rhodes||Take it with a grain of salt. I used to live in the bay area where this socialist/reactionary tv station is located. They thrive on wacko weirdo, anything goes news stories. Like the Berkeley tree sitters for example. This station thought they were heroes. I would not place any interest in anything they spew. Its pure garbage believe me. They run "stuff" up the flagpole and hope it takes off nationwide so they can count their viewers and charge more for their ad rates. Its a non story by a sleazeball station and Earth First! type writers.|
|05-22-2012 08:36 PM|
|DeepSouthJeeper||I had death wobble. The guy I bought it from was running six year old dry rotted off balance tires. My alignment was also off some. Aligned the front end, and replaced the tires and it's fine. I'm no expert but that sounds more like screwed up tires then an "engineering flaw."|
|03-21-2012 01:57 AM|
I have written Dan Noyes more than once about this.
This was my response on Dan Noyes' Facebook page (he is the ABC investigative reporter that did the story and facilitated the letter from his local representative and Congressman Waxman to the NHTSA).
It is all fairly simple with the JK.
The stock front trackbar bolts need to be torqued to 125 ft. lbs. Re-torquing them to 125 ft. lbs. needs to be part of the dealership pre-delivery inspection and part of the recommended maintenance at every oil change interval.
What happens over time with suspension cycling, road/tire vibrations, and the natural elasticity of metal, is that the torque specs back off a little on some jeeps.
Because Chrysler used stock trackbar bolts that are 14 mm instead of the 9/16" size bracket bolt holes, there is slop of the stock bolts in the stock brackets if the torque specs back off of 125 ft. lbs. Except for the very newest 2012 JKs, all the rest of the JKs have trackbars with bushing end bolt sleeves that are also 9/16"--large enough compared to the 14 mm stock bolts that there is slop when the torque specs back off from 125 ft. lbs.
With the amount of slop in the bracket bolt holes and the trackbar bushings, when the torque specs are less than 125 ft. lbs. it leads to violent, tear-your-front-end-apart Death Wobble with the right kind of trigger to throw the front end into that harmonic oscillation--like railroad tracks, poorly balanced tires, bridge seams, etc.
The stock steering dampener attempts to mask the looseness in the trackbar ends/brackets/bolts, but eventually, it fails prematurely.
The uninformed driver continues to drive the jeep with Death Wobble.
Multiple episodes of Death Wobble end up damaging most of the rest of the front end. The loose bolts oval/wallow out the trackbar bracket holes and damage the trackbar bushings. One or more of the lower ball joints fail, the tie-rod and drag link ends fail, the unit-bearings fail, the steering box fails, and the front upper axle side control arm bushings fail. It is not uncommon for the trackbar bracket welds at the frame and the axle to crack. I have seen brackets ripped clear off the frame and/or the axle when owners continue to drive a JK with Death Wobble.
In addition to the first simple solution of adding re-torquing the front trackbar at pre-delivery, and later, after every oil change interval, the second solution is for Chrysler to properly train their techs how to inspect for and diagnose the source(s) of Death Wobble. Unfortunately, Chrysler simply gives them a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to upgrade the steering dampener. They do not train them to follow an inspection checklist to look at the trackbar bushings, trackbar bracket bolt holes, ball joints, unit-bearings, tie-rod ends, drag link ends, steering box and sector shaft, control arm bushings, trackbar bracket welds, etc. The alignment specs also can aggravate the problem if there is too much or too little toe-in or caster.
A new TSB with a comprehensive inspection checklist should also consist of switching out the too small 14 mm trackbar bolts with 9/16" Grade 8 fine thread bolts that actually fit the brackets and bushing ends.
The new, heavy duty steering dampener eventually fails just like the original one when it can no longer mask the true source(s) of the Death Wobble.
Where the JK Death Wobble most often starts with trackbar bolts that aren't torqued to spec, and then is severely aggravated by stock bolts that are much too small for the stock bolt holes and bushings ends, the TJ Wrangler most often starts with the trackbar for a different reason.
The TJ Death Wobble most often happens because the frame side end of the trackbar has a tie-rod end instead of a bushing end (like the JK does). The tie-rod end is designed for rotational movement, but it does not allow side-to-side movement. However, when the suspension flexes in a TJ, the leverage of the trackbar against that end results in wearing out and destroying the end. That is why in the ABC story, the 4x4 repair shops/vendors quoted recommend a different design for the attachment at the frame side end. It addresses the problem of that tie-rod end design binding when the suspension flexes.
I could explain a lot more, but these are the basic issues at hand here. I am no engineer. I am just a weekend hobbyist, but most every engineer and mechanic/alignment tech who has read my explanations and inspection checklist agree that a loose trackbar on a solid front axle vehicle with coil springs and control arms will result in Death Wobble problems--even if the tires are perfect and the alignment within spec.
Again, Chryslers' response needs to be:
1- an update to pre-delivery inspection at the dealer to re-torque at least the trackbar bolts
2- an update to the recommended service schedule to include re-torquing the front trackbar at every oil change interval
3- a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) that properly trains dealer technicians to do a thorough inspection of all the front end links, components, ends, bushings, steering, ball joints, etc., and to replace the front 14 mm trackbar bolts with 9/16" bolts. It should add inspection for proper caster and toe alignment specs, and it should include inspection of the wheels/tires as aggravating triggers to the Death Wobble. Only after the true source(s) of the problems are addressed, then the TSB would recommend the installation of a new steering dampener.
In spite of all this, you need to know that Death Wobble almost never happens on a properly maintained jeep--whether it is stock or modified.
|03-20-2012 07:49 PM|
The point is, our jacked trucks are already seen as intimidating and dangerous to many of the public, so we need to exercise extra care to keep them safe with our mods and repairs or the gov will step in in reaction to public complaints.
|03-20-2012 07:47 PM|
|3025826||Hey I've read alot about dwobbble bc previous owner said he had a problem with it. but in the few years I've had my 98 with a 4 inch lift and 35s I've never had it, and I've got the girl up to 95 on the highway before : grinning: I figure I'd share the solution the previous owner told me, he said he replace the lower front control arms with these really beefy things (I've never seen as big as I have on another jeep) and it's also running dual front stabilizers|
|03-20-2012 07:33 PM|
|03-20-2012 07:29 PM|
|03-20-2012 07:24 PM|
My 06 with 38K miles has no lift, Michelins less than 1 year old, New track bar front and back, Bilsteins front and back, Heavy duty, after market ball joints, heavy duty aftermarket tie rod and drag link, Castor kit, and a rancho steering damper.
And, I still get an occasional death wobble. But the system is so tight it is not scary and is easier to handle than stock.
My '01 TJ didn't wobble, and 3 other solid axle vehicles I have owned didn't wobble.
|03-20-2012 07:24 PM|
|whiteyj||Honest journalism doesn't sell! There is no such thing anymore. It's all sensationalized BS.......|
|03-20-2012 07:24 PM|
|mraybrake||It wasn't new new. Probably between 20 and 30,000? Still within warranty, which Jeep and the dealership did a good job with dealing with the problem. Like I said, its gone now. Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking or anything like that. I hate reading post on other threads/ forums where that's all people do.|
|03-20-2012 07:20 PM|
Ok. So I interpreted your post a little different. Not everyone does research like you do though. My sis wanted the jeep because she knew they were fun vehicles and wanted to get one. I don't quite agree with you on the "You don't buy something as specific as a Wrangler without doing your homework". Sometimes its best to live in the spur of the moment. She doesn't regret buying the jeep (and i don't either cause it got me a jeep haha) I love the jeep, DW or not.
I love doing research on things I want, or things I want to get in the future but its clearly not gonna happen lol. I should probably stop posting. Idk how your reading this but I promise I'm not uptight or anything. I love the community we have on this forum!
|03-20-2012 07:17 PM|
|jcmstrickers||I have a quick question. Can DW be caused by having one of your sway bars connected? Or is it a more serious issue. I am getting serious DW over 50mph. Please help. Thanks|
|03-20-2012 07:16 PM|
|03-20-2012 07:08 PM|
I wouldn't say that they aren't capable of being grocery getters, I drive mine to work in an office building and to the local Walmart every day, not to mention taking the dog to the dog park every Saturday.
However, I do not see how anyone could go out and buy something like a Jeep Wrangler without doing research on the vehicle first. I just got my Jeep last month, first one I have ever owned, and I knew all about the Death Wobble before buying it. I can MAYBE understand someone buying a Corolla without researching it and it's possible flaws before buying it, but a 4x4 of any kind? No, there is no excuse. You don't buy something as specific as a Wrangler without doing your homework.
When we bought my girlfriends Scion Tc I told the salesman that I wanted it with Yokohama's, not the Bridgestone. He looked at me funny and said "you know what kind of tires they come with?"... yeah, I'm not spending 20k for something and not know a few things about it.
And by the way, "Death Wobble" is not just a Jeep thing. It's a solid front axle 4x4 thing. Go to Youtube and put in "Death Wobble"... first four results, Ford F250, Jeep, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge...
If you spend a bit time doing some homework you will not only find pretty much every possible thing that would cause the wobble, but fixes for it as well.
|03-20-2012 06:33 PM|
yea my sis's '06 had the DW COMPLETELY STOCK!!!! nothing done to it. Hadn't even gone off road! Then we got the new steering stabilizer and it fixed it, till we went mudding, then it came back till we cleaned out the undercarriage. I'm not saying its jeeps fault, I'm just saying it shouldn't have happened on a new vehicle like that when nothing was done, and no off roading was done.
One of the comments above stated "They aren't made for highway driving, they aren't made for soccer moms/dads, they aren't grocery getters." This is true, however that doesn't mean that they can't be used like that in stock form. Jeep should make a quality product that can be used in ANY form. If these were made solely for off-roading and beefing up, why even bother putting tires and suspension on them?
Sorry, just my $0.02. My sis got into an argument with a jeep rep when she called about the DW on the jeep and the rep said basically what i quoted above.
*Edit* My jeep (bought it off the sis) no longer has the death wobble. I just watched the videos and found what they said interesting. Not always 100% accurate, but hey, when is the media 100% accurate?
|03-20-2012 06:29 PM|
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