|11-15-2012 06:16 PM|
Hi - A quick update
Sorry about the late response to your thread. I have finally got the transmission off and will be looking very closely at the components within the bell housing this weekend. It took me a couple of months to get the six bolts out that hold the skid plate in place! Life got in the way, as did many poor quality drill bits! In the end, I cut some slots in the 2 inch lifter bar on each side of the chassis and used a handheld hacksaw blade to cut through each bolt. Loads of fun!! I now know what deltoids are (and they are not mints!!)! Anyway, I successfully got the transimssion off, as I said, and am looking forward to getting into the investigative stage on Saturday. Suffice to say, nothing obvious jumped out at me on Monday when I got to this stage - and that worries me! I'll keep you posted.
|06-13-2012 01:18 PM|
Hey Angloman, I was just wondering if you had resolved your issue yet, and if so, what you found?
I'm having similar issues and I would be grateful for as much info as I can get before I dive in to fixing mine.
Thanks for to and Kevbz for all the info you've already shared!
|04-25-2012 12:27 PM|
I know what you mean about long breaker bars! I have been guilty of breaking off too many rusted bolt heads due to my 'over-zealous' approach to persuade them to come out!
I think it's time for me to invest in an impact drive ;-)
|04-25-2012 08:09 AM|
If you look up rust in the dictionary, there is a pic of my jeep! Seriously! I soaked them for days prior with Aerokroil, and used a impact on them, usually running them tighter for a few hits, then reversing them a few hits, did that until they finally came out. Tighter with a impact kinda starts the rust to break up. Long breaker bars are great, but allows you too much leverage some times.
That being said, over all the jeep is still winning in the broken to not broken bolts! And I won't even get into how many torx bits its eaten.
|04-25-2012 07:48 AM|
|04-25-2012 07:43 AM|
|04-25-2012 07:34 AM|
This is really good thread! Thanks to all for the info..OP, please take pics of what you find.
I had the opposite issue..the grab of the clutch seemed to "move up" the pedal overnight, and seemed to get softer. It grabbed at the very top of the pedal.
My resolution was replacing the master/slave package.
Looks like I will order up one of the ball clips to throw in my spare clutch kit
|04-25-2012 02:03 AM|
|jlstearn||When I replaced my clutch I ran into a snag when one of the nuts in the frame for the skid plate broke loose making the bolt spin. Needless to say I was too lazy to find a way to take it off and used it to support my tranny and just scooted it back enough to get to the clutch. I had plenty of space to work and it ended up taking me less then an hour to take it off switch it out and put it back on. Guess I'll have to do this once again as I'm still having all the issues y'all are :/|
|04-24-2012 03:40 PM|
|04-24-2012 02:38 PM|
|04-24-2012 02:31 PM|
Glad you found it!
The spring clip was a dealer part for about 9 bucks, or online for about 2, but i needed it ASAP when i did my clutch, and actually found a dealership with late evening hours (like 10pm).
you hit the nail on the head with the fork falling back in place, its truly a ball and socket design, so once it is seated in there, it may stay for a minute, or a year, but without the clip to hold it the vibrations can easily knock it loose, and your right, the fork cant really spin because it hits the bell housing.
I would say you are normal in the in/out play of the fork on the transmission spline, forward and the throw out hits the clutch, towards the tranny and it has a lil wiggle room.
Here's my experience with the tranny jack. I used an adapter type for my floor jack, and it seemed to work ok BUT where i screwed up was I didnt lift my jeep up at all. I vaguely remember saying to myself "your on 33's with a 4" lift, you dont need jack it up"
ummmm, not quite like I planned once I got started. I had one floor jack, and two jack stands. first thing I had to support the skid plate as I removed it, used the floor jack...BUT then the tranny was hanging by itself, no support so before i dropped the skid i put a jack stand under the bell housing. I've now used up the floor jack and one jack stand. once the skid was out of the way i put the tranny adapter on it and picked up the weight of the trans, thus getting my other jack stand back... whew, tranny was hooked up to the jack, and two jack stands available! once the drive shafts were off, and all the electrical and skid mount plate were off i could slide back and lower down the tranny, I then got on to the clutch replacement.
sound ok, well let me tell you more! the tranny was not "locked down" on the adapter very well so when i went to put it up and in after i swapped clutch parts, it had rotated from its weight on the stand, i tried to rotate it back and bam, off it came, on the floor. Yelling something expletive about god know what i dragged the tranny and jack out from underneath the jeep to re mount it, that's when i noticed the clip was broke. so off the the internet and dealer i went to get the clip. got back home and turned to again. Mounted the tranny on the floor jack and low and behold as i slid it under...it wont fit! yep, my "i don't need to lift the jeep speech" I gave myself hours before came back to bite me. Bell housing was hitting the frame. I cant take it off the floor jack and slide it all under there and then lift it back on, way to heavy to do on your back underneath the jeep.
So follow me on this one...i need the tranny on the jack, but i need the jack to lift the jeep up, but once it is up I need the jack stands to hold it up, but i need the jack stands to hold the tranny when i go to put the skid back on...i turned this thing into a rocket science experiment i swear. So, borrow a neighbors floor jack...which looked like it came in a fisher price tool set, but beggers cant be choosers. jacked the jeep up on one side to get the trans under, missed it by two inches...what now? take off the bell housing, slide it under, reattach the bell housing. OK, now i am locked on the tranny jack, under the jeep, and in position to slide it up and in. Wait..why is the jeep crooked, OH YEA, Fisher Price is still holding the driver side up in the air, thus making the motor cock eyed..easy fix, dropped it down, got back under there and worked for an hour to line up the splines on the input shaft with the pressure plate, and get the input into the pilot bearing. Since i was by myself and couldn't really line it up and work the jack at the same time I was man handling it...FINALLY got the input shaft into pilot bearing...WOOHOO lets bolt it up, slide out from underneath to go grab the bolts and what do I see??? THE FORK AND THROW OUT BEARING SITTING ON A FIVE GALLON BUCKET, exactly where i set it when I took the bell housing off to get it underneath. long story somewhat shorter, i got the fork and TO in, and spent another hour lining it up again and then a few more reattaching everything (wires, driveshafts, etc).
Moral of the story is have 12 floor jacks, 15 jack stands, a neighbor that doesn't buy Fisher Price junk with a 6" lift capacity, and a wife or significant other standing outside to say "do you need this part sitting here"
Here is my tranny dropping experience in the form of smilies
to answer your question, the tranny adapter is fine as long as you have clearance under the jeep to move it in and out.
(hope my lil story inspires you!!)
|04-24-2012 01:51 PM|
I was sitting there thinking about what I had found out this morning about my clutch fork, and I have a couple of other thoughts for consideration. You mentioned that the pilot issue would not have been caused by me hammering the stuffing out of my ball joints, but I am wondering if there was already an issue there? Perhaps the pilot bushing clip was beginning to fail and my continual hammering transmitted through the chassis and caused it to finally fall off (or fall apart)? Would you consider this a possibility?
Another thing that is on my mind is associated with the throwout bearing. Is it possible for the fork to become disconnected from the throwout bearing, but for the bearing to remain situated on the transmission spline such that the fork can still push the bearing forward? If so, I would imagine that the bearing would stay up against the pressure plate fingers when the fork disengaged? If the fork did disconnect from the throwout bearing, would this also allow the fork to move up and down (within the confines of the space it has around the transmission spline)? Or is my thinking a little skewed here? I am not sure if such a scenario would create the same symptoms, but I would be keen to find out.
Like you, I am interested in retracing what caused the problem to happen in the first place.
|04-24-2012 01:22 PM|
I just completed the test that Kevbz suggested, and guess what? Yep - the fork moves up and down like a propeller! Granted, it is stopped from spinning too far up and down by the sides of the bell housing where the slave cylinder end is located, but it moves freely, none-the-less. Interestingly, I didn't need needle-nose pliers to move the fork; I was able to get my index finger in there and move it up and down quite easily. I was even able to move it back along the transmission spline by 3/4 inch (towards the transmission), but not too far forward (obviously). As I moved the fork back and then forward along the spline, I could hear a metallic 'ding' noise as if the release bearing had contacted something (the pressure plate, maybe - or is it not possible to push the fork that far by hand?) and it certainly felt as though the release bearing was still in place. I think that Kevbz has hit the nail on the head when he says there is a problem with the pilot stud or clip. I no longer believe it to be a slave problem.
What is of notable interest is that, at one stage after a little 'wiggling', the fork stopped moving up and down and seemed to feel like it is supposed to (restricted up and down movement). It was almost as though the other end of the fork had repositioned itself on the pilot stud where it should be. This leads me to believe that the clip that holds the fork on the pilot stud may have disintegrated. Either that, or the pilot stud has sheared off, has got caught somewhere in that end of the bell housing, and the fork got temporarily stuck against it when I felt this. After a little bit more 'forceful' wiggling with my index finger, there was a 'ding' noise, and the fork became free again and would move up and down as it did initially.
So, it's time for the tranny to come off so I can get in there and see. With that in mind, I am undecided about whether to purchase a floor jack transmission adaptor to fit into my floor jack, or whether to go with the more expensive transmission dolly from Harbor Freight. Has anyone any personal experience with the floor jack adaptor? The adaptor costs about $50, whereas the dedicated transmission dolly I was looking at costs $300. I am hoping to have to do this only once, so one would probably go for the cheaper option; but I am also aware that my floor jack does not have the directional maneuverability that the transmission jack has, and I want to make this job as straight forward and as safe as possible. What are your thoughts?
In the meantime, thanks to everyone for their input so far, especially Kevbz. I am hoping to start work on this at the weekend, so I will keep you posted as to what I find. Wish me luck!
|04-24-2012 10:37 AM|
Anyway, going outside now to do that test on the release fork. Great picture, by the way. That really made it clear to me what I am looking for. Thanks. I'll be back with my findings very shortly.
|04-24-2012 12:42 AM|
so with the clutch engaged (to the floor) it was rolling from the tranny still being engaged (meaning the clutch was not disengaged the trans from the engine)
meaning with the clutch in it still acted like it was in gear? that issue sounds like there may have been damage to the clutch diaphragm. the throw out is not pushing the diaphragm in enough to pull the pressure plate away from the flywheel
if it shifts with some force applied to the stick (meaning you have to push/pull the stick shift to force it into gear) there may have been damage to the syncronizers in the transmission
when you are going down the road and you shift, the syncros spin up the next gear so you can fluidly slide into the next gear with out grinding. reverse is a funny one, when you go into reverse the reverse idler gear should spin up reverse so you can slide into it with out grinding. is it grinding or just not sliding in?
unfortunately when you are in gear, and the clutch is out, the whole drive train is connected from the rear wheels to the engine, a whole mess of gears are meshing together in harmony. In a rear end accident, that shock from the impact can transmit all the way through the drivetrain and any number of components (the weakest one) can break from that shock. I would assume you would hear pieces of carnage chunking around if this was the case. but it only takes one small piece of gear to break to cause issues.
i don't know tranny's or clutches enough to tell you what it might be. i only know how they interact, not how they react when one of them is not working properly.
|04-23-2012 11:49 PM|
Okay so long story short I got into an accident nothing but a broken bumper mounted light for me thank god, but it was the day before my clutch started acting like this was fine the first half the day then nothing. Had to leave it in gear when stopped and hold the break, it wouldnt stall it but if i didnt it would roll even with the clutch to the floor.
from my understanding if it was the bearing you would defiantly hear it and feel it, so thats out. I have already replaced both cylinders so thats out and its holding fluid and bleeding properly making the line good as well. That leaves the fork but what would make the fork working during the day when I drive 35 miles to class then while I leave class and try and put it into reverse I cant. Its a static piece of metal. I'm totally stumped which doesnt happen very often so Im looking to yall for some help. THanks in advance
|04-23-2012 09:18 PM|
yea, clutches are pretty simple on these.
master, slave, fork and throw out bearing..if you didn't do any thing to clutch (burn it up, spin the throw out bearing) which will happen when driving and you usually know some thing went wrong.
its got to be the master, slave, or fork play
|04-23-2012 08:59 PM|
Well wish I would have looked at this earlier today as I have the same issue as the author of the thread.
Being said I came up with the same solutions as he did and after talking with a local 4x4 shop he pretty much said its most likely the master or slave... so I replaced both to no avail. After bleeding them I would get about an inch of play out of it let it sit a bit with the engine running and it eventually would disappear where none of the gears would engage.
Hope this saves someone a few $$ and someone else finds a solution I wanna get it back on the road!
|04-23-2012 06:52 PM|
It cost him a 12 pack of Dr. Pepper and Doritos!! So 10 minutes for me to take mine out, a hour drive there, 20 minutes swap his out and mine in, then a hour drive home was worth it to know his jeep wasn't getting picked over by the locals of the small town he left it in.
Your in a better situation. they are two bolts on the master, two on the slave and a little wiggling to pull the whole system out up through the engine bay. If you know someone with a like tranny set up they can pull up next to yours and you can swap back and forth in 45 minutes...if you truly think it might be the slave. time to hang out at the local 4x4 shop and make friends! lol
|04-23-2012 06:37 PM|
sounds like the slave is working...brand new they are a closed system...they even come with fluid in them..so if yours is leak free it sounds like it is good.
kinda to reiterate what i was getting at the clutch fork, by design with have some in/out play as the throw out slides on the input shaft. any up/down movement in the fork might indicate that it is not on the pilot stud.
i attached a pic of what you will see if the trans was out. you can see that if the fork is not on the pilot stud then it would almost look like an airplane propeller, with the throw out bearing being the pivot point. granted the "ball/socket" of the slave would keep it from spinning but if there is movement on the stud side because of the lack of a clip, or even a worn out stud, which is made out of a poly plastic and can wear, then the leverage needed for the slave to push the fork in, which forces the other side against the stud, and in turn the throw out bearing slides forward on the input shaft to engage the clutch diaphragm. if that stud is not the way it should be then the fork wont have the opposite leverage point it needs.
Its kind of a long shot because I am a fan of retracing what caused the problem to happen and nothing you did with a ball joint would automatically cause you to have a pilot stud issue, but if the fork moves up and down and you can feel it is not set in the pilot stud by wiggling it through the slave opening, then you might have found your problem, which would be a lack of leverage to get the throw out bearing to completely engage the clutch dues to a clutch fork or pilot stud issue
|04-23-2012 01:16 PM|
What I meant was that when the clutch pedal is pushed in, the slave cylinder does react - I loosened the bolts that hold the slave against the bell housing by 1/2 an inch and then held the slave tight against the housing with my hand. When the clutch pedal was pushed, the slave forced itself away from the housing and was stopped by the bolts - this told me that the piston is pushing against the release fork.
Sadly, I don't know anyone with a Jeep who would be willing to let me 'borrow' his hydro, but it's a thought. I'll ask around and see if I can convince them otherwise
|04-23-2012 01:06 PM|
Thanks for such a detailed response - I follow you exactly. I shall try your test of the release fork tomorrow morning and get back to you. I, too, and leaning towards taking off the tranny and having a look.
|04-23-2012 12:37 PM|
Thanks for your rapid reply.
Re: the excessive play in the clutch pedal - yes, it was a worn out bushing/clip piece that holds the clutch pedal to the m/c rod. I didn't have a new bushing readily available, so, to make a temporary repair so that I could test the clutch, I wrapped some electircal wire around the clutch pedal pin to make it thicker and pushed it back into m/c rod. This reduced the play considerably, and I made sure that the clutch pedal pin was biased more to the back of the m/c rod to give me a little extra 'push'.
Re: the slave going into the bell housing, no, mine acts like yours - I have to tighten the nuts to get the slave to move into position due to the release arm trying to push against it.
You had also mentioned that the "clutch disc could have been worn thin to the point that the pressure plate fingers do not protrude out very far resulting in excessive pedal travel for the bearing to reach the fingers." This is a possibility. The guy that owned the vehicle before me used to drive it really hard on the road, almost like it was a sports car. He had pretty much converted it to a stage 2 Jeep, but had the mind of a Grand Prix driver - not a Jeep driver. In other words, he used to try and race other drivers that pulled up next to him at traffic signals. I know that he must had abused that clutch pretty badly.
|04-23-2012 09:50 AM|
if its not leaking what so ever, and it is full, i cant see the slave being a issue..if it isnt leaking then how did it get air bubbles to get soft? ( just me thinking out loud).
do you know anyone with a jeep with a like tranny? had a friend once stick a log through his hydro. line and had no clutch play at all...so to get him home we swapped mine in (i was at home, not wheeling with him) to drive it home. you could do the same thing to check for function, it it still isn't working you know your slave is ok and its elsewhere.
|04-23-2012 09:32 AM|
I just had mine apart a month or so ago so maybe I can shed some light.
My slave needs to use the bolts to pull it in tight to the bell housing, you can compress it in there but with out starting the nuts on the studs it wont stay.
I would try this... take the slave off and zip tie it up and out of the way. you should see the clutch fork sitting in the openings of the slave cyl. take a screwdriver and push on it, straight in like the slave would do...no you wont be able to get much leverage on it, and don't have the hyd. power like the slave has, but you will be able to see if the fork is functioning correctly. what you are looking for is straight in and straight out movements
If I can describe this correctly i hope you can understand my thought process. The fork goes from the opening where the slave cylinder is, then across the input shaft of the trans, where it holds the throw out bearing in place, then across to a pilot stud mounted on the other side of the bell housing. When you press the petal the slave pushes in on the fork, and the other end stays tight up against the pilot stud, this movement causes the throw out to slide forward on the input shaft and press the clutch diaphragm in.
There is a spring over on the pilot stud side that holds the fork on the stud. its a cheap clip that if broken allows the clutch fork to move somewhat. that may be your clearance you are needing to get good clutch engagement. you can not get to it with out pulling it all out to check unfortunately.
if you can grab that fork in the slave opening with a set of needle nose pliers and it can move up and down (not in and out) might be a sign.
I wish i could put my thoughts to keyboard better, not sure if this is coming out right.
And is you have replaced the plastic clip up on the clutch pedal that holds it on to the push rod for the master, and the slave looks good (fluid and movement wise) if is probably in your clutch fork, or throw-out bearing ( but these usually squeal awhile before they are completely gone and not doing what they are supposed to be doing).
another note, being a hydro clutch, location of the pedal is kinda set, its engagement happens at the same place be it a old clutch or a brand new one. not like a old lever or spring style that you could feel the clutch getting worn as time went on by the pedal location. about the only feel of new clutch is in the diaphragm fingers tension, if they are stiffer than what you have had.
here's pick of the spring i was talking about. after 200K and all the grime..this thing is just not robust to last that long.
I am leaning towards a fork problem, then a throw out problems IMO...both need the tranny to come out to check though
|04-23-2012 08:52 AM|
I was thinking about this and haven't come up with an opinion yet. I would like to know, how did you correct the excessive play in the clutch pedal? The push rod is not adjustable. Was it a wore out bushing/clip piece that holds the clutch pedal to the m/c rod?
This is just a wild guess, but with 200k miles and low pedal position I might guess that your clutch disc has worn thin to the point that the pressure plate fingers do not protrude out very far resulting in excessive pedal travel for the bearing to reach the fingers. That is before your recent no disengage problem.
When you put the slave back into the bellhousing, in my experience, the rod fits into the release arm and I can barely get a couple threads on the nuts and have to pull it in with the nuts as I tighten them. On your's, do you feel the slave go in really far without the rod making contact with the release arm?
|04-22-2012 06:34 PM|
Slave Cylinder or Throwout Bearing?
Great forum! I am a newcomer here, but have learned a great deal in the short time I have been a member. Now it's my turn to ask for help. I have searched as many related threads as I can, but, although there are similar symptoms, I cannot find one that is identical.
Here's my problem. I recently bought a 1997 TJ with 200k miles. It has a 4 litre, 6 cylinder Cherokee engine (the engine only has 100k miles), 2 inch lift, 35 inch wheels. I rebuilt a lot of the front-end upon purchase, replacing tie rods, steering rod, new brake lines, calipers, ball joints, etc. When I first drove the beast home after purchase, I noticed that the clutch seemed to engage/disengage at a very low position on the pedal, probably only about 1 inch from the floor. It was such a low activation point that I thought I would eventually have to replace some of the clutch components.
Well, after I had finished knocking the stuffing out of the ball joints to get the old ones out and the new ones in (using the appropriate removal/insertion tools), I found that the clutch pedal no longer had any effect on the clutch - with the clutch pedal to the floor, I could not get it into any gear, and 1st and reverse gave me the familiar grinding.
So far, my investigation has gone as follows:
1. Master cylinder - no apparent leaks, fluid is full.
2. Slave cylinder - does activate in sympathy with the clutch pedal. No leakage.
3. Bell housing - no disturbing noises from the clutch area.
4. I can get the shifter into gear with the engine off.
5. I did notice that the clutch pedal had some excessive play in it, but I have corrected that and the problem remains.
6. I can start the engine in 1st and it will move forward, but this has not released anything that might have been sticking. The fault remains.
Anyway, before I go ahead and take out the tranny in preparation for a throwout bearing/clutch change, can anyone offer me any suggestions as to what else I can do to correctly diagnose the cause of this issue? Many of the threads I have read suggest the slave cylinder might cause this problem, but with the tests I have done (including bleeding the slave by pumping it by hand against the bell housing - there were no air bubbles), I cannot seem to find fault in the slave.
Questions: It is possible that the hammering I did on the ball joints somehow dislodged the throwout bearing?
Could the slave cylinder be partially pushing out its piston, but not enough to activate the throwout bearing? If so, how could I test for this?
What else should I test for?
Thanks, everyone. I appreciate any help or advice you can offer me.