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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-22-2008 12:48 PM
KicknJeep I believe several on here have mentioned and agree with ccain when it comes to the parents need to start disciplining their children and becoming responsible for their child's action whether it be at school,home,or even at the mall. And again agreeing with ccain on the mention of most parents not whipping their kids ass. Mostly (and I've heard it a thousand or more times) because they are afraid of being in trouble with the law for hitting the little $hit for any reason. And yes get them off the tv, computer, video games or what ever and spend time with them you would be amazed at the difference it can make. One last thing Joe Dirt is 100% right it is totally different when being shot at trust me I can vouch for that. Now hows this for a thought...... lets turn all public schools into military academies (Wow almost what the other guy said).
08-22-2008 08:39 AM
sgnellett
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccain View Post
OK, so I see in the news we've had yet another school shooting.

Here's what we do...


Make it mandatory that all students wear a school uniform and make bullet-proof vests and Kevlar helmets part of that uniform.
Allow all students to carry guns to school for self defense.
Mandate that the curriculum shift to that of basic military training with special attention to small arms training and weapons cleaning.
School will start at 04:30 and end at 19:00.
All students must clear weapons at the clearing barrel before entering the school house proper.
Once students are inside the school grounds lock the gates and have guards patrol the perimeter. Anyone trying to get in or out will be shot on sight. NO QUESTIONS.
Any student disobeying the "NO FIRE" rule inside the school house will be publicly executed at recess. NO QUESTIONS.
Flame throwers will NOT be permitted on school property except for security personnel.
Explosives will NOT be permitted on school property except for security personnel.


Or....


The lazy fawkin' parents of this country could get off their collective lazy asses, turn off the TV and do their fawkin' job!

With the exception of the criminally insane, if parents did their fawkin' job, we wouldn't need prisons!

It strikes me as odd that in this modern era where you can not discipline (beat their asses) your kids when they are bad, people bitch about the actions of these little bastards when they commit crimes. All the shooters at these schools ever needed was a good old fashion ass whoopin' way before they got out of control enough to take a gun to school. Jesus, I can't be the only one that sees this chit!

SAVE A CHILD'S LIFE! BEAT HIS/HER ASS WHEN HE'S/SHE'S REALLY BAD OR PUTTING THEMSELVES IN DANGER!

And before the bleedin' hearts chime in... THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEATING A CHILD'S ASS WHEN HE/SHE IS REALLY BAD OR RISKING HARM TO THEMSELVES AND CHILD ABUSE!!!
Cherry red cheeks NEVER killed ANYONE! My Grandfather whooped my ass plenty. And ya know what?! I never once even thought about taking a gun to school! Hell, when I went to school the teachers could beat your ass! And they had that paddle with the holes drilled in it! And don't even get me started on those damned Nuns at the Catholic School!
Hmm, Option A or Option B? Which to choose? I see benefits to both..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Dirt View Post
I worry about the idea that the gun will protect people. People protect people. Combat shooting is not target shooting. Paper targets don't shoot back. Hogans Alley is fun, but doesn't compare to almost getting killed. I don't think many teachers will practice with their gun every month (that's what it takes to be ready to fight). Stand in a small room with an airsoft gun in your waistband and let your friend open the door with his airsoft gun already out and see what happens. I think we all get the point now. This is not Hollywood. Anyone who has every really been shot at will tell you it is an undescribable experience to those who have not been. I'm a big believer in School Resource Officers. Spend the money on one.

Forget the media hype. Here are some facts. According to the Safe Schools Initiative which studied school shootings in the US between 1974 and 2000, only 37 incidents occurred in those 26 years. In 2005-2006 only 5 occurred in the US. Compared to the 30,000+ murders that occur in the US every year, this is a rare problem with big media hype. You have a greater chance of being murdered in your own home.
The issue here is more of the deterrent factor, most of these cowardly little shits wouldn't try something like this if they knew there was a good chance a few teachers were packing. SRO's are a good start, but fairly easy to overcome, look at Columbine, he was the first one shot! Now the BG has another gun, and the teachers and students have no way to defend themselves. BTW, only 5 during 2005-2006? Well, thats only 5 too many!
08-22-2008 07:17 AM
erickpl
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccain View Post
The lazy fawkin' parents of this country could get off their collective lazy asses, turn off the TV and do their fawkin' job!

With the exception of the criminally insane, if parents did their fawkin' job, we wouldn't need prisons!

It strikes me as odd that in this modern era where you can not discipline (beat their asses) your kids when they are bad, people bitch about the actions of these little bastards when they commit crimes. All the shooters at these schools ever needed was a good old fashion ass whoopin' way before they got out of control enough to take a gun to school. Jesus, I can't be the only one that sees this chit!

SAVE A CHILD'S LIFE! BEAT HIS/HER ASS WHEN HE'S/SHE'S REALLY BAD OR PUTTING THEMSELVES IN DANGER!

And before the bleedin' hearts chime in... THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEATING A CHILD'S ASS WHEN HE/SHE IS REALLY BAD OR RISKING HARM TO THEMSELVES AND CHILD ABUSE!!!
Cherry red cheeks NEVER killed ANYONE! My Grandfather whooped my ass plenty. And ya know what?! I never once even thought about taking a gun to school! Hell, when I went to school the teachers could beat your ass! And they had that paddle with the holes drilled in it! And don't even get me started on those damned Nuns at the Catholic School!
I believe I said something similar on page 1 or 2, so you're not the only one to see the root of the problem.

Parental skills, I think have been on the decline since the kids of the 60's have been having kids. My parents are good parents and were NOT afraid to whoop me or my sisters if we screwed up. Fortunately, that didn't have to happen to often. My parents were born in the 40's. People born a bit later were part of the freedom/hippie movement and I think from that point on, parents have had the free love kind of mentality where the collectives will raise kids - problem is, the collective is seriously fubared. And what do ya know, so are the kids (generally speaking). In saying this, I'm not saying ALL parents after 1960 are bad; some avoided that movement. But look at crime rates starting in the mid/late 60's through today, and I have to wonder if there is a correlation...
08-22-2008 03:28 AM
Joe Dirt I worry about the idea that the gun will protect people. People protect people. Combat shooting is not target shooting. Paper targets don't shoot back. Hogans Alley is fun, but doesn't compare to almost getting killed. I don't think many teachers will practice with their gun every month (that's what it takes to be ready to fight). Stand in a small room with an airsoft gun in your waistband and let your friend open the door with his airsoft gun already out and see what happens. I think we all get the point now. This is not Hollywood. Anyone who has every really been shot at will tell you it is an undescribable experience to those who have not been. I'm a big believer in School Resource Officers. Spend the money on one.

Forget the media hype. Here are some facts. According to the Safe Schools Initiative which studied school shootings in the US between 1974 and 2000, only 37 incidents occurred in those 26 years. In 2005-2006 only 5 occurred in the US. Compared to the 30,000+ murders that occur in the US every year, this is a rare problem with big media hype. You have a greater chance of being murdered in your own home.
08-22-2008 03:03 AM
ccain OK, so I see in the news we've had yet another school shooting.

Here's what we do...


Make it mandatory that all students wear a school uniform and make bullet-proof vests and Kevlar helmets part of that uniform.
Allow all students to carry guns to school for self defense.
Mandate that the curriculum shift to that of basic military training with special attention to small arms training and weapons cleaning.
School will start at 04:30 and end at 19:00.
All students must clear weapons at the clearing barrel before entering the school house proper.
Once students are inside the school grounds lock the gates and have guards patrol the perimeter. Anyone trying to get in or out will be shot on sight. NO QUESTIONS.
Any student disobeying the "NO FIRE" rule inside the school house will be publicly executed at recess. NO QUESTIONS.
Flame throwers will NOT be permitted on school property except for security personnel.
Explosives will NOT be permitted on school property except for security personnel.


Or....


The lazy fawkin' parents of this country could get off their collective lazy asses, turn off the TV and do their fawkin' job!

With the exception of the criminally insane, if parents did their fawkin' job, we wouldn't need prisons!

It strikes me as odd that in this modern era where you can not discipline (beat their asses) your kids when they are bad, people bitch about the actions of these little bastards when they commit crimes. All the shooters at these schools ever needed was a good old fashion ass whoopin' way before they got out of control enough to take a gun to school. Jesus, I can't be the only one that sees this chit!

SAVE A CHILD'S LIFE! BEAT HIS/HER ASS WHEN HE'S/SHE'S REALLY BAD OR PUTTING THEMSELVES IN DANGER!

And before the bleedin' hearts chime in... THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEATING A CHILD'S ASS WHEN HE/SHE IS REALLY BAD OR RISKING HARM TO THEMSELVES AND CHILD ABUSE!!!
Cherry red cheeks NEVER killed ANYONE! My Grandfather whooped my ass plenty. And ya know what?! I never once even thought about taking a gun to school! Hell, when I went to school the teachers could beat your ass! And they had that paddle with the holes drilled in it! And don't even get me started on those damned Nuns at the Catholic School!
08-22-2008 12:51 AM
foxinthemudd
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeptales View Post
I almost drowned in my water bottle when I read that!
better than drowning in someone elses water bottle...
08-21-2008 06:57 PM
Big Boy IMO each school should allow only fully qualified teachers to carry. Security is an extra expense that the school systems in rual Georgia can't afford, but each school only needs a couple of teachers packing to take care of business if (God forbid) it is needed.
08-21-2008 04:56 PM
jeeptales
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxinthemudd View Post
The difference between sport and combat is that in combat you bury the one who comes in second.

I almost drowned in my water bottle when I read that!
08-21-2008 04:47 PM
foxinthemudd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Dirt View Post
I find myself torn in this issue. As a southern CA cop I know the ratio of cops on duty to citizens in my area is 1 to 20,000. Obviously, the lesson here is that the cops are not going to SAVE you. Prepare to save yourself until help arrives. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone who wants a gun should have one. Guns don't kill people, people do. If you're not ready mentally and physically to kill, then having a gun is dangerous to the possessor and everyone he/she is supposed to be protecting. Additionally, large groups of people are stupid. A guns in the hands of stupid people is dangerous. Unfortunetly, spotting the stupid amoung us is hard until after they act stupid and then it's too late.
good points. I like the comparison and contrast you put in. most of us hopefully can spot stupid before they act though. I'm reading the book right now called THE GIFT OF FEAR and damn its good. it reinforces that your body and mind tells you when something is wrong and to listen to the senses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KicknJeep View Post
Nope can't fix stupid they just put duct tape over it to make it look smarter.
Anyway Joe has a good point, And my only problem with teachers having a gun on them is when the SHTF what will their mind set be? Will they be so freaked by adrenalin they won't be able to tell good guys from bad? Will responders have to worry about active shooters as well as the armed teacher/teachers?. Also how hard would it be to find out which teacher is carrying and make them their first target? Remember these shooters are more than likely on a suicide mission and could probably care less about the armed teacher. And on another note lets say you have an armed teacher and he/she gets into an argument with a student and in the heat of the moment looses his/her temper and shoots the student,Or both have guns and a shoot out begins with innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. It happens all the time with family members and it could happen in this situation. Makes you think. Now who was it that said the parents should step up and take responsibility for the actions of the children at home and school?.
agreed as well. especially with the parents part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeptales View Post
Who of you except for the cops... Has ever shot in a Hogans Allie set up?

I've had a chance to do it twice...

Now keep in mind I'm vary comfortable with firearms the first time I did not fair so well I neutralized about 60% of the targets. But all the shooting takes place in a split second. It's not like you can bare down on a target like you might in the real world. It is true combat shooting other then no one is shooting back. It is designed to sharpen your Shoot/No Shoot skills...

The Second time I did it I neutralized 95% of the targets and Zero No-Shoots were discharged. If you ever have a chance to do one.... You should do it; it really gets your heart going.

I know it would be expensive but if someone were going to carry a weapon in a place where there are sure to be civilian bystanders like a school halls or classrooms. This sort of training should be mandatory with regularly scheduled re-certifications requirements.

Would this sort of training for teacher like they do with air-marshals make you more comfortable?

I have shot a allie setup with shoot and no shoot targets and it was alot of fun makes you really think when you run the course too. I enjoyed it very much.
08-21-2008 01:58 PM
MOz
Quote:
Originally Posted by richp View Post
Currently when the alarm in the school goes off the teachers close and lock the doors to the classrooms, no one in or out till the all clear. Simplifies it quite a bit, you shoot anybody coming through the door. No needing to pick targets. All they can do now is hope nobody comes in and starts picking them off packed in the classroom.
In the event of a terrorist attack, the only real thing you can do now is start throwing kids out the windows and telling them to run for their lives when they hit the ground, hoping some or most make it before the terrorists start rounding every one up and getting them or a large percentage to the gym or other central area. A single shooter vs a fire team of shooters needs to handled differently, the problem is the teachers and staff are probably in the dark as to how many.
If the kids and teachers at columbine had taken the opposite approach and rushed the shooters it might not have turned out so badly instead of allowing them to pick and aim at their targets. Yea, it takes nads to do it but look at the alternative. Takes a certain mind set, anger and adrenaline can be a potent mix.
Where I live I can almost guarantee that at least 100 armed parents would show up alot quicker than the police could get there.
Right on the head with that one. I would be there with extra hardware to pass out.

That's one of the great things about PA...everybody is armed and the bad guys know it.
08-21-2008 09:23 AM
jeeptales
I hope not...But

Quote:
Originally Posted by KicknJeep View Post
sgnellett if there were a way to properly train those teachers I would be all for it, And yes even our schools lock down the classrooms in the case of emergencies but as the case of Columbine high school (I believe it was this school) where they planned the attack at lunch break where most kids and teachers are either in the hall or cafeteria. shooters,teachers,students,and responding officers all in hall or cafeteria might get a little confusing. Oh well lets see how it pans out in good 'ol Texas.

I'd say; expect a court challenge.

But if there is not one... I might just have to move there!
08-21-2008 09:00 AM
KicknJeep sgnellett if there were a way to properly train those teachers I would be all for it, And yes even our schools lock down the classrooms in the case of emergencies but as the case of Columbine high school (I believe it was this school) where they planned the attack at lunch break where most kids and teachers are either in the hall or cafeteria. shooters,teachers,students,and responding officers all in hall or cafeteria might get a little confusing. Oh well lets see how it pans out in good 'ol Texas.
08-20-2008 12:48 PM
richp
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeptales View Post
Remember Flight 93!
Thats kind of sad, that they used box cutters, shows the passive level we have fallen to.
There was a hijacking of a spanish aircraft that the passengers and crew took care of.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...uritania_x.htm
08-20-2008 12:35 PM
sgnellett Kick, in most schools, the classrooms are locked down, and word would be passed by intercom that the BG has been subdued and police are in the building, on the way, something like that, so the chances of a 1st responder barging into the classroom of an armed teacher is pretty minimal. Not to mention, I would hope the teacher would be well trained enough to know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Cop enters the room, put the gun down, keep your hands in plain sight. Pretty safe bet the person previously holding a weapon will be the first to be identified by the police, as long as the teacher doesn't start blasting away as soon as the doorknob starts to turn, all should be ok.
08-20-2008 12:29 PM
jeeptales
People do grow nads

Remember Flight 93!
08-20-2008 12:18 PM
KicknJeep hypothetically speaking: You have a early twenties teacher (pretty new to teaching)armed and with no teacher dress codes he/she is wearing pretty much the same cloths as the students. Now a call goes out and you respond and as you enter the classroom everybody is screaming he/she has a gun, You yell (if there's time) drop the gun but with the chaos and Adrenalin (such as tunnel vision and total loss of sound associated most shooting situations) the teacher does not hear you. How could this scenario end?. I know most of you probably think this would be far fetched, But is it? Peace!
08-20-2008 12:15 PM
richp Currently when the alarm in the school goes off the teachers close and lock the doors to the classrooms, no one in or out till the all clear. Simplifies it quite a bit, you shoot anybody coming through the door. No needing to pick targets. All they can do now is hope nobody comes in and starts picking them off packed in the classroom.
In the event of a terrorist attack, the only real thing you can do now is start throwing kids out the windows and telling them to run for their lives when they hit the ground, hoping some or most make it before the terrorists start rounding every one up and getting them or a large percentage to the gym or other central area. A single shooter vs a fire team of shooters needs to handled differently, the problem is the teachers and staff are probably in the dark as to how many.
If the kids and teachers at columbine had taken the opposite approach and rushed the shooters it might not have turned out so badly instead of allowing them to pick and aim at their targets. Yea, it takes nads to do it but look at the alternative. Takes a certain mind set, anger and adrenaline can be a potent mix.
Where I live I can almost guarantee that at least 100 armed parents would show up alot quicker than the police could get there.
08-20-2008 10:35 AM
jeeptales
Hgans Allie Shooting

Who of you except for the cops... Has ever shot in a Hogans Allie set up?

I've had a chance to do it twice...

Now keep in mind I'm vary comfortable with firearms the first time I did not fair so well I neutralized about 60% of the targets. But all the shooting takes place in a split second. It's not like you can bare down on a target like you might in the real world. It is true combat shooting other then no one is shooting back. It is designed to sharpen your Shoot/No Shoot skills...

The Second time I did it I neutralized 95% of the targets and Zero No-Shoots were discharged. If you ever have a chance to do one.... You should do it; it really gets your heart going.

I know it would be expensive but if someone were going to carry a weapon in a place where there are sure to be civilian bystanders like a school halls or classrooms. This sort of training should be mandatory with regularly scheduled re-certifications requirements.

Would this sort of training for teacher like they do with air-marshals make you more comfortable?
08-20-2008 10:34 AM
MOz
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Yes you can
Not legally anyway. You need to make it look like an accident.
08-20-2008 09:59 AM
KicknJeep
just my thought on this!

Nope can't fix stupid they just put duct tape over it to make it look smarter.
Anyway Joe has a good point, And my only problem with teachers having a gun on them is when the SHTF what will their mind set be? Will they be so freaked by adrenalin they won't be able to tell good guys from bad? Will responders have to worry about active shooters as well as the armed teacher/teachers?. Also how hard would it be to find out which teacher is carrying and make them their first target? Remember these shooters are more than likely on a suicide mission and could probably care less about the armed teacher. And on another note lets say you have an armed teacher and he/she gets into an argument with a student and in the heat of the moment looses his/her temper and shoots the student,Or both have guns and a shoot out begins with innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. It happens all the time with family members and it could happen in this situation. Makes you think. Now who was it that said the parents should step up and take responsibility for the actions of the children at home and school?.
08-20-2008 08:51 AM
skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOz View Post
I'd like to add something if I may...

You can't fix stupid!!!
Yes you can
08-20-2008 07:47 AM
MOz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Dirt View Post
I find myself torn in this issue. As a southern CA cop I know the ratio of cops on duty to citizens in my area is 1 to 20,000. Obviously, the lesson here is that the cops are not going to SAVE you. Prepare to save yourself until help arrives. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone who wants a gun should have one. Guns don't kill people, people do. If you're not ready mentally and physically to kill, then having a gun is dangerous to the possessor and everyone he/she is supposed to be protecting. Additionally, large groups of people are stupid. A guns in the hands of stupid people is dangerous. Unfortunetly, spotting the stupid amoung us is hard until after they act stupid and then it's too late.
I'd like to add something if I may...

You can't fix stupid!!!
08-20-2008 12:25 AM
Joe Dirt I find myself torn in this issue. As a southern CA cop I know the ratio of cops on duty to citizens in my area is 1 to 20,000. Obviously, the lesson here is that the cops are not going to SAVE you. Prepare to save yourself until help arrives. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone who wants a gun should have one. Guns don't kill people, people do. If you're not ready mentally and physically to kill, then having a gun is dangerous to the possessor and everyone he/she is supposed to be protecting. Additionally, large groups of people are stupid. A guns in the hands of stupid people is dangerous. Unfortunetly, spotting the stupid amoung us is hard until after they act stupid and then it's too late.
08-19-2008 11:10 PM
jeeptales
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4point View Post
Was it your sig?
08-19-2008 10:53 PM
4point
08-19-2008 09:53 PM
jeeptales I'm not sure where I saw it...

But someone had a Sig that said....

"Saying Guns kill people....

Is like saying Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell Fat!"


I think I pulled a something from laughing so hard!

And Yes Tiny; I still like you!

And if you were ever threatened and I was there I would defend you with Deadly Force! Like I would for anyone!
08-19-2008 09:19 PM
richp
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelBullDawg325 View Post
thanks for the links tiny. this is one of the conversations that will just turn intoa pissing match. there 2 sides and for the large part, no one is going to budge from theirs. but then again, why shoudl we, we all know our side is right, let the teachers have guns
Realistically we could solve or at least prove some points, those who have guns put up 'trespassers will be shot' signs at all 4 corners of your house, those anti gunners put 'there are no firearms or other defensive devices except for a direct dial 911 phone' in the same locations.

Then over say a 1 or 2 year period lets see what happens....

IMO anti-gun people are riding on the shirt tails and get indirect protection from those of us who are pro-gun. They just need to be shown that.
08-19-2008 09:03 PM
tiny terror Are you sure Greg, maybe you might want to read all my posts
08-19-2008 08:26 PM
jeeptales
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelBullDawg325 View Post
thanks for the links tiny. this is one of the conversations that will just turn intoa pissing match. there 2 sides and for the large part, no one is going to budge from theirs. but then again, why shoudl we, we all know our side is right, let the teachers have guns

Amen My Brother!


But let it be known.... I still think Tiny Rocks even though we don't see eye to eye on this one!
08-19-2008 08:25 PM
rebelBullDawg325 thanks for the links tiny. this is one of the conversations that will just turn intoa pissing match. there 2 sides and for the large part, no one is going to budge from theirs. but then again, why shoudl we, we all know our side is right, let the teachers have guns
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