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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-26-2009 08:15 PM
harleyharv I just bought the little mirrors too, best $3.00 Ive spent in a while.

I will be replacing my original muffler soon (83k miles) and would like a better sound, I see Flowmaster 40 and Cat-Back refered to on this thread. Any advise?
10-04-2009 10:22 PM
JeepnJim Here's a cheap mod that I find to be useful. I bought two of the little round convex mirrors and put them at the bottom outboard side of my outside rearview mirrors and now I can see both my rear tires and I've eliminated my blindspots. These are handy when parallel parking, backing up on a trail or changing lanes on the interstate.
10-04-2009 07:35 PM
rrich Glad to see someone goes back over a year to try to find something to moan about.

The original poster said he's in Oregon, it's not way up north, is it? Maybe YOU prefer to live "where the sun don't shine," but he doesn't.

Stainless is a good choice, no argument there.

Yes, I've had, and seen lots of problems with the chain stores like Midas. I'm not the only one that has either. My last experience was they wanted over $700 to replace the entire exhaust system on an Astro van - only the muffler was bad, my wife ripped a hole in it with a curb.
The local independent shop did it for $75. Yes, that might just be the one store, but it happens all over.
If you like the chain and big box stores, then use them, somebody has to support them. Intelligent people will shop around a little.

Welcome to the forum!
10-04-2009 06:25 PM
youdbesurprised
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
How 'bout a little "reality check?"

1. The TB spacer - does NOTHING. The purpose of the spacer is to get more time for the air and fuel to mix - increasing the effective area of the plenum chamber. Some even have swirls cut in the insides to get the mixture swirling, supposedly to help keep it atomized. BUT you have ported fuel injection - there is no fuel up there. Fuel is injected at the last minute just as the air enters past the valve. By the time the air gets down through the intake manifold runners it's stopped swirling anyway. Once inside the combustion chamber you do not want any swirling at all - any movement of the gasses will only serve to blow the flame out or leave unburned areas. You want it stopped!
Carbs and Throttle Body Injection where there is fuel mixed in the carb or throttle body spacers can help - sometimes, but sometimes they can hurt the flow (too much swirling or turbulence is effectively a restriction.) Each case is different.
Picture stirring your coffee BEFORE you add cream and sugar.
It's all hype.

2. The "custom" intake - Chrysler has modified and changed their intake slightly many times over the years, trying to optimize it. The thing aftermarket stuff does not have to contend with is OEM has to make it work at all temperatures, altitudes, humidity, and pressures. If there is any "real" increase in performance that someone invented, don't you think Chrysler would be on it like a duck on a June bug? They are always striving to make things better, not worse. Any improvement in "flow" will be at the higher RPM anyway, probably 5000 and above.

3. Exhaust - the stock exhaust uses a huge muffler - it has to comply with new car noise laws, plus it has to be built heavy to last the 70,000 mile emissions warranty. Yes, it's part of that emissions package. Remember it's right behind the cats, that's a very hot place! One reason it's huge is so the inside area is effectively like a reservoir - it smooths out the exhaust pulses for noise.
The specs you see Banks and others, are those of vehicles that were compared to stock.
Reality - ditch that 500 lb stock somewhat restrictive long lasting muffler, but you don't need a whole new system. Go to a muffler shop and get a regular muffler installed. They are cheap, unless you go to a rip-off chain like Midas. $50-75 should do it.
But it'll be a little louder and won't last as long. Saving all the stock muffler's excessive weight will probably be the biggest improvement.

Increasing pipe size won't make much difference except at very high RPM = like maybe 8,000 and above? If you've modified the engine enough to do that then you already know the tricks. If you go to a straight pipe or glass pak type - you'll probably find it only actually increases HP a tiny bit at one particular RPM, not through the entire range. But the loud noise will impress JR High school kids (by high school they've realized noise is not power and will laugh.)


But then, don't believe me, what do I know? I only had 3 shops that specialized in high performance stuff like that, but only 2 of them had dynos.

Increasing the ability of the system to get more air by ditching the factory airbox and going to a non restrictive fresh air intake will be your best bet. For a normally aspirated system it's doing about all it can do.

If you are serious about increasing power - look into the several superchargers available. There's lots of hype there too. Some claim a 200 HP gain - bull. If they lie, steer clear.
You want a moderate boost, maybe in the order of 3 to 5 lbs, more than that will kill the engine quickly.
You can get some nice set-ups for less than $2000 - complete, not just a few bits and pieces. Expect a possible 80-100 HP increase at WOT.

Maybe someday I'll take the plunge.
Couldn't help but reply about your Muffler comments and about your stab at Midas. In fact I activated an account just to say something to you about it. First of all a low restriction,durable stainless muffler is a good value and can be very inexpensive. Your advise to someone who lives up north and in harsh winter weather is poor at best.

The 50-75 dollar mufflers you speak of have poor sound quality and where I live last about 2-3 years. I think the better advise is to buy a quality and affordable stainless system.

Next, if you're going to slander a chain repair shop maybe you should chose a corp. chain like Monro. Midas stores are owned by franchisees and do not have corporate mandates on prices. If you have had a bad experience with your local Midas don't let that speak for the rest of them. My local Midas quoted me $69.99 for a lifetime warranted muffler installed on my 2002 Jeep Wrangler TJ. Beyond that they advised me that the product they had was not what I was looking for and the store manager helped me find an after market system that I liked and charged me $50 for a cat-back install.

I chose the Banks system and it has a tasteful sound quality and after two years it has held up extremely well. I'm glad I'm not installing cheap aluminized mufflers every other year.
09-17-2008 12:40 AM
Triple88a
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
The poster who bragged about 15 is living in fantasy land. It may work once or twice before it self destructs. If it has forged pistons it can take the extra push.
Simply look at the ads for Jeep SC's, or for that matter, most any engines.
what are you talking about?
09-16-2008 12:26 AM
rrich Sorry, I've been having trouble locating my notes about the cheap superchargers. I can't even find those about the one I'd thought about.
I was searching around the net and ran across this though -
A rebuilt Eaton SC for $299!
You'd have to build your own brackets for mounting, no biggie, and make your own ducting - but?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EATON...RCHQ3aUSQ3a101

It says it has a boost of 8PSI - too much without forged pistons, but that can be reduced.
Stock pistons usually can take 3 LBs, sometimes 5, but over that they break the rings and lands.
The poster who bragged about 15 is living in fantasy land. It may work once or twice before it self destructs. If it has forged pistons it can take the extra push.
Simply look at the ads for Jeep SC's, or for that matter, most any engines.
09-15-2008 09:57 AM
rrich So YOU have actually done the white rag test? I think not. That's internet guff.

TRY IT!

Scavenging - Partially correct - allowing too much new A/F to flow through, theN out again does nothing but waste and raise emissions.

But the principle is the same - the exhaust still pulses, the vacuum pulse behind the pressure pulse still can be used to draw out spent fuel. (If you don't believe there is vacuum pulses in the exhaust, then please explain how Pulse Air Injection works?)

The SOURCE where the fuel CAME FROM is irrelevant, whether from a carb or an injector. After the fuel has left the injector or carb, it's still fuel. It has no identification marks on it.

The combustion chamber does not care either, neither does the exhaust.

If back pressure was so good, then why not just plug off the exhaust entirely?

Leaving the exhaust ports totally open - like no manifold at all - that's as little backpressure as you can get. If simple backpressure was the trick, why doesn't anyone just add a plate over the open port to create backpressure? It would be so much easier.


Adding a pipe, like a Zoomie, can help or hinder the running. Starting from 0, adding length doesn't do anything till the pipe is long enough for the pressure pulse to be partially down the pipe, to where the velocity and weight of the pulse forms a "plug" which actually forms a vacuum behind it - drawing out even more old gasses.
When the pressure pulse gets to the open end of the pipe and expells into the low pressure of the atmosphere, the vacuum behind it goes up even more. If the peak of the vacuum node is right at the port, even MORE scavenging takes place.
The effect is NEGATIVE BACKPRESSURE.

Headers are just a way of using one cylinder's negative pressure to scavenge another.


But if you prefer to stick with armchair racer's and advertisers theories, no problem. It's a simple matter of crushing you own exhaust pipe to prove backpressure is good.

Racing - I suppose you've done it? You know all about using products for contingency money? A true racer, one that wants to win, won't use inferior products that will COST him the race. Even though he may get the trash for free. The contingency money is paid WHEN YOU WIN, not when you lose.

When I was professionally racing Sprint Cars I had tons of that kind of stuff given to me. I only used what really worked.
09-15-2008 02:42 AM
sean42069 not super scientific, but i cant find the scientific one right now- the one that used all equal conditions on a calibrated flowmeter with various metered amounts of dirtflow, but this one shows the same results, just not in fancy measurements.
Filtration Testing for Amsoil, K&N, Napa, Jackson Racing, Baldwin, and Mazda air filters on a Miata

K&N themselves only truly claim 90% efficency.
so for every pound of dust, 1.6 ounces go through your engine!
if you want to sandblast your engines internals just install a KN filter!
it cleans the carbon off the valves increasing engine efficency!
remember that racers are paid to use their crap for advertising, they only care about that one race anyway, as long as it flows a lot of air and filters a little of the dirt out they could care less about longevity because they're going to rebuild their engine after the race anyway.
09-15-2008 02:22 AM
sean42069 NEVER, i repeat, NEVER run a KN filter, if you actually do your own little test you'd see how crap they are. they cannot filter anywhere near as well as a paper one, if you think of the theroy behind it you'd understand why, paper filters are THE most efficient filters you can install, period. dont believe advertising, dont buy oil because "racers" are paid to use it, or because its a pretty purple color. research these things, dont state opinions when it can cause people serious problems. there is good reason manufacturers do not install KN style filters on their stuff, if they're going to put a warrenty on an engine they'd be damned to put a POS KN filter on it, they'd be replacing a lot more engines

on the other statment about backpressure not being good. again dont listen to advertising, manufacturers dont make engines restrictive like that for no reason, it'd be cheaper for them to install a nice set of free flowing headers at the factory, iron is expensive. and no manufacturer would sacrafice power and engine life just to make them noisey
a carburated engine running a free flowing exhaust kindof fits your theory. if allowed to scavenge longer you CAN get a little more power out of that stroke, but you're just puking fuel out your exhaust and washing down your cylendars, and of course killing your engine.
on a multi port injected engine if you allow that scavenge period to flow the fuel out the exhaust you're just losing power, MPI is a milisecond pulse injection, not a calibrated toilet of a carburator, if you put fuel out your exhaust it isnt replaced by more, it just ends up being a misfire.
09-15-2008 12:06 AM
Triple88a
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
The K&N test I suggested was YOU do it, not influenced by a company that sells something.
it was done by consumer reports i think but i'm not sure.
09-14-2008 08:03 PM
rrich The K&N test I suggested was YOU do it, not influenced by a company that sells something.

I'VE done it many times! But I DON'T SELL ANY KIND OF FILTERS.

We all know you can find most anything on the Internet - a great deal of it is untrue!

That why I rarely reference a "study" ---- I'd rather YOU do it to prove it to yourself. I just show how.

I know I printed the SC material - gotta find it. I've seen the cheapies advertised, but I was going to order one for about $1,500.
09-14-2008 04:59 PM
Triple88a
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
- Try a simple experiment:
Clean your air system thoroughly. Use the paper element, drive it in a dusty area or around town a few miles.
Run a white paper towel around the inside of your air cleaner, snout etc. - the engine side, AFTER the filter took out the dust. Notice the white towel has collected dust from the system. That's only a small portion of the dust that your engine inhaled.
Now try the same thing with a K&N. You be the judge.
But, the choice is yours.
Is that experiment suppose to favor the K&N? There was a thread somewhere. They tested bunch of filters in a perfectly closed and controlled environment. K&N allowed the most dust particles to pass by.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
When a car maker puts on a boost system, he thinks of those things when he designs the engine.
Your obvious solution - put one of those rice burners in your Jeep.
Bud miatas do not come with turbo systems. This is why i say this disappoints me how weak our wrangler engines are made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Look around, do a Google search, open a magazine - the lowest I've seen was about $700.
Please share dude, unless its one of those electric supercharger ripoffs, i find it hard to believe. I have searched with out success.
09-14-2008 10:44 AM
rrich """""2. with a free intake you will get a lot of noise which some people hate (usually whistling) This is why car manufacturers have to sacrifice a bit of power and make it more restrictive. Most setups (dyno proven by 3rd party) give about 5-10hp"""""

By free intake you must mean the air inlet and filtration system? Yes, the air being drawn in makes noise. They design the intake to work as a silencer. But here we aren't critisizing the makers, just trying to improve power and performance.
The increase isn't limited to just a few HP - on my dyno I've seen as much as 35 HP increases by switching to a low restriction type.

The conversation at that point was about the intake manifold, my statement was about that too.


"""""as the non restrictive fresh air intake.. do not get K&N. Their filters blow. You're better off using a net for flies."""""
Blow? By blow you mean they get a hole in them? You cannot put them where they will get damaged, they have to be treated gently - and inspected periodically, like most things.
The K&N - competition loves to bash them, but they actually do filter better than any paper element I've ever seen. Just so you can prove it to yourself

- Try a simple experiment:
Clean your air system thoroughly. Use the paper element, drive it in a dusty area or around town a few miles.
Run a white paper towel around the inside of your air cleaner, snout etc. - the engine side, AFTER the filter took out the dust. Notice the white towel has collected dust from the system. That's only a small portion of the dust that your engine inhaled.
Now try the same thing with a K&N. You be the judge.

The only time I've seen the K&N cause problems is with a MAF (Mass AirFlow) sensor - - the oil affects them. Jeeps use a MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) sensor - they aren't affected by the slight oil mist.

The other problem is sealing - most people don't pay attention to how the filtering system is sealed from the outside world. They just throw it on and expect it to do it's job.

But, the choice is yours.


"""""3-5lb? this just disappoints me. On my miata people put over 15lb of boost on all stock internals with no worries. Many of them pushing well over 200k miles on those little 4 bangers."""""

How many Jeep engines have you seen where the bottom end was designed for the extra power?
How many Jeep engines have you seen where the rings were designed to take the extra cylinder pressure 15 lbs will give?

When a car maker puts on a boost system, he thinks of those things when he designs the engine.

Your obvious solution - put one of those rice burners in your Jeep.


"""""Also i have never seen a TJ SC systems for under 4 grand so please share where you've found 2k systems."""""

Look around, do a Google search, open a magazine - the lowest I've seen was about $700.
09-14-2008 01:18 AM
Triple88a
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
2. The "custom" intake - Chrysler has modified and changed their intake slightly many times over the years, trying to optimize it.....

Increasing the ability of the system to get more air by ditching the factory airbox and going to a non restrictive fresh air intake will be your best bet.

You want a moderate boost, maybe in the order of 3 to 5 lbs, more than that will kill the engine quickly.
You can get some nice set-ups for less than $2000 - complete, not just a few bits and pieces. Expect a possible 80-100 HP increase at WOT.
2. with a free intake you will get a lot of noise which some people hate (usually whistling) This is why car manufacturers have to sacrifice a bit of power and make it more restrictive. Most setups (dyno proven by 3rd party) give about 5-10hp

as the non restrictive fresh air intake.. do not get K&N. Their filters blow. You're better off using a net for flies.

3-5lb? this just disappoints me. On my miata people put over 15lb of boost on all stock internals with no worries. Many of them pushing well over 200k miles on those little 4 bangers.
Also i have never seen a TJ SC systems for under 4 grand so please share where you've found 2k systems.
09-13-2008 08:37 PM
rrich Nope - but you can.

Just use two rags one in your mouth the other --.

If it doesn't help your speed after half way around the track, - try switching them.
09-13-2008 07:36 PM
jdhallissey Rich I have not been here that long but you seem like the type of guy that would try to run constipated along with the rag in his mouth
09-13-2008 07:35 PM
rrich Back pressure being good is a rumor. If it was, then why do headers work?

Headers utilize the NEGATIVE pressure pulses right behind the positive pressure pulses. The result is NEGATIVE BACK PRESSURE in the chamber. The negative pressure sucks out the old spent gasses. Leaving them in only replaces new unburned air and fuel.

Try jogging with a rag in your mouth to experience back pressure.
Or try running when you are badly constipated!
09-13-2008 05:48 PM
Timberman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie in Maine View Post
Jeeps are never done.
Yeah, every time i open my garage door i hear........CHA-CHING!! My garage door is completely silent.. I don't know where that sound comes from....
09-13-2008 05:41 PM
Barrie Jeeps are never done.
09-13-2008 05:20 PM
Timberman
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean42069 View Post
dont waste money on throttle body/exhaust mods
like it was said earlier, a longer throttle body does nothing for a MPI engine, its more of a hinderance than anything.
your exhaust and valve timing work together in sorts.
during the scavenge period of the cycle, both intake and exhaust ports are open at the same time to draw in as much clean air/fuel mix as possible.
it can also have an inverse, if you dont have exhaust restriction the scavenge cycle will just draw your air/fuel mix right out the tailpipe w/o giving it a chance to produce power. and its hell on valves.
you even notice cars with oversized/dual exhausts sound like hell?(except for the ones who put in a proper cam, they sound sexy) misfiring like crazy, engine barely running, 30,000 dollar ricers burning massive amounts of oil?
my jeep came from the previous owner with a flowmaster 40 on it, sounded great!
due to my triangulated rear uppers i had to cut my exhaust off at the skid, sounded like sh!T! it misfired and sputtered like crazy, i wouldent even use the engine to slowdown anymore, i'd push the clutch in and use the brakes.
finally got that taken care of, i had a muffler shop make a new tailpipe and put in a cherrybomb glaspack, still sounds like crap, but at least i can use the enigne braking w/o having it sound like a plane was going to crash.
get recovery gear, suspension, armor, axles, steering in any order of your liking, thats just how im doing it, axles and steering are next
Sean,

I will politely disagree.. The AEM Brute Force absolutely woke that engine up!! I was chasing after a couple of coffee can exhausted hondas today and I was with them (really right on their A**es) up until 40mph.. I has given me performance that I can feel at about 2500rpm +..

Jeepers,

Well... I learned one thing.. Listen to you guys! My Bro-in-law and I had a conversation today and I hold him in the highest respect with regards to all things cars.. That is pretty much all the credit i will give him... He did marry my younger sister.. Kidding, he said that the cat-back and header would probably hurt my torque due to lack of back pressure.. Not that i was doubting you guys; I listened, he just validated.

THANKS FOR SAVING ME THE $800 Fellas.. My bro and I are going to do dual ARB air lockers in march and that $800 savings is going to take a big bite out of the price of the lockers..

So, I will be lifted, locked, and done by March of 2009.. My Jeep Will BE DONE... RIGHT?????
09-12-2008 08:34 PM
sean42069 dont waste money on throttle body/exhaust mods
like it was said earlier, a longer throttle body does nothing for a MPI engine, its more of a hinderance than anything.
your exhaust and valve timing work together in sorts.
during the scavenge period of the cycle, both intake and exhaust ports are open at the same time to draw in as much clean air/fuel mix as possible.
it can also have an inverse, if you dont have exhaust restriction the scavenge cycle will just draw your air/fuel mix right out the tailpipe w/o giving it a chance to produce power. and its hell on valves.
you even notice cars with oversized/dual exhausts sound like hell?(except for the ones who put in a proper cam, they sound sexy) misfiring like crazy, engine barely running, 30,000 dollar ricers burning massive amounts of oil?
my jeep came from the previous owner with a flowmaster 40 on it, sounded great!
due to my triangulated rear uppers i had to cut my exhaust off at the skid, sounded like sh!T! it misfired and sputtered like crazy, i wouldent even use the engine to slowdown anymore, i'd push the clutch in and use the brakes.
finally got that taken care of, i had a muffler shop make a new tailpipe and put in a cherrybomb glaspack, still sounds like crap, but at least i can use the enigne braking w/o having it sound like a plane was going to crash.
get recovery gear, suspension, armor, axles, steering in any order of your liking, thats just how im doing it, axles and steering are next
09-12-2008 12:40 PM
Jerry Bransford Definitely stick with a replacement header that has had the flexible steel bellows (expansion joints) added on both sides. I see those on eBay quite a bit.

Avoid Banks and Borla headers. Not only are they overpriced because of their brand names, they don't have the expansion joints and are prone to cracking just like the older OE headers were. I know they have a lifetime warranty but one of the guys I talk to quite a bit is on his third Borla header due to cracks. Sure the replacements may be free but your labor isn't.
09-12-2008 12:25 PM
rrich Oops, I missed the crack statement.

E-bay replacements with expansion joints? News to me. I haven't seen one of those - sounds like a good idea to stop the cracking.

Gotta do a search, thanks.
09-12-2008 11:54 AM
1BLKJP
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Inexpensive manifold?
Exhaust or intake?

I noticed in your first post you selected the intake you have based on the SOUND, not performance. But you were dissapointed in the performance.

???? Which is important?

The stock intake - and the stock exhaust manifold - has been designed for best performance over the entire operating range, not just one speed.
The intake "log" may look low performance, but they really aren't.
The stock exhaust headers are the same way.

Any slight improvement would not be worth the cost. And it certainly will not get you unstuck!

You are definitely right here Rich, but he had said closer to the beginning of the thread that he thinks he is developing a crack in his exhaust manifold and wsa one of the reasons he was looking at the Banks and Borla. We had all basically just suggested the Ebay replacement manifolds with the expansion joints.
09-12-2008 11:11 AM
rrich Inexpensive manifold?
Exhaust or intake?

I noticed in your first post you selected the intake you have based on the SOUND, not performance. But you were dissapointed in the performance.

???? Which is important?

The stock intake - and the stock exhaust manifold - has been designed for best performance over the entire operating range, not just one speed.
The intake "log" may look low performance, but they really aren't.
The stock exhaust headers are the same way.

Any slight improvement would not be worth the cost. And it certainly will not get you unstuck!
09-12-2008 09:22 AM
Timberman Ok.... I think I will just look for an inexpensive Manifold replacement and check out a less restrictive muffler.

Thanks again for saving me some cash here fellas!

Timberman
09-12-2008 02:36 AM
rrich Spend a few bucks on a good muffler at an independent muffler shop.
A few more on a decent air filtration system - snout & K&N. You can even cut yours off and fit the K&N on the end.
That leaves lots for things that you will really need -= Hi Lift, Winch, Tires, Lift etc.
09-11-2008 11:27 PM
GrnTJ For $800 bucks you can put alloy shafts in the rear and lock it up. Look at the super 35 kit with Detroit locker. I think you will be FAR happier with the effectiveness of that mod compared to ever so minimal gains you'll get with an exhaust system.
09-11-2008 08:20 PM
nicolas-eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLG View Post
If you are taking it off road spend your money on skid plates and armor.
x2
09-11-2008 07:55 PM
1BLKJP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpman89 View Post
I was on the borla website and they say their headers have a one-million mile warranty. i think that despite the price it should be the last header you would ever have to buy, even if no power is gained
Yeah, but honestly how much do they run now? I've had my Ebay replacement manifold on my rig for going on 4 years now with no problems at all. Including shiping it only ran me 90 bucks. Even on the off shoot that I had to replace it again I'm only in it for 200 bucks max instead of to Borla or Banks for around 400.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all about spending money on my rig. Hell I'm probably 15k deep in mine over the years. I'm just not down with spending it in places that it won't do any good. for about 150 bucks you can have a perfectly well built manifold and a new muffler of your choosing that will give you a better flowing exhaust system.
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