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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-20-2012 08:07 PM
-JC- Wow! What a wonderful response! Especially the part about the owners manual designed to get the through the warranty period with little repair. If I leased and returned the vehicle every year, I wouldn't do a thing.

And no, I disagree with a recent response to the OP"......you can't demand that a dealer perform maintenance that doesn't correspond to their agreement. They never agreed to change your oil whenever you wanted.
08-20-2012 06:57 PM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeperz Creeperz View Post
I am curious. Has anyone heard of anyone having motor failure for infrequent oil changes? I am not talking about an oil leak or never changing the oil. There are mechanics on this list. Have you?
Define failure. If you are talking about a rod hanging out of the block I don't recall one that I could PROVE was maintenance related. If you are talking about excessive blowby, unstable oil pressure and other signs of immeninent failure I have seen plenty. Likewise, if you are talking damage that didn't result in total engine failure such as flattened cam lobes (not an issue with rollers), stuck valves, broken rocker arms, destroyed distributor gears, etc. I have also seen many of these types of failures. Most engines will lose power to the point of uselessness due to poor oil change habits before they spit out the pieces they don't want any more or they will flatten a cam or something similar that costs more to fix than the owners are willing to spend.

Quote:
My ex wife's brother was a shade tree mechanic. He would go 20,000 to 30,000 between oil changes. The oil was the cheapest he could find on sale. He would top the oil off every so often. He usually purchased cars with 80,000 or more on them and then put on another 150,000 with no engine oil related problems.
I had a customer once that brought in his Dodge truck, probably a 95 or 96 model with about 80k miles on it to get it "looked at" because it "didn't drive like it used to". We had never seen the truck before, so we gave it a pretty thorough inspection and found several thousand dollars in work it needed. When presented with the estimate we got the famous answer "It's been a great truck, I've never had to do anything to it before." He followed that sentence with "I haven't even had to change the oil yet!". I don't know what he used as a measuring stick for determining when to change the oil, but I drained about a quart out of it when we changed it. That was all we did to it. He didn't want to spend the money on the plugs, front end, brakes or any other maintenance services. The point of this story is that the engine will live a long time without proper maintenance, but the people that don't change their oil don't do anything else either. If the vehicle didn't fall apart around the engine, the engine would eventually fail. It just never gets the chance. If you are going to maintain your vehicle and want it to live a long and happy life you need to change the oil.

Quote:
This is anecdotal, I know but so are the "I changed it every 2,000 miles and never had a problem" stories. Would the results have been different if that person did the oil changes at 5,000 miles?
I have always changed the oil in my vehicles at 3,000 mile intervals, however I have to say that the truck I drive everyday is 23 years old and has 403k miles on it. The truck I had before this one was such a POS that I didn't have it long enough to speak about its longevity. Before that was a 69 Pontiac LeMans that had over 240k miles on it when it was totaled. Every vehicle my family had growing up got oil changes every 3k miles and they all went well over 200k miles. The difference is that none of them had electronic engine management. A modern car doesn't contaminate the oil with gasoline, so they can go longer. On my truck I drive every day I still change it every 3k miles because the oil looks like fresh crude when I drain it. The Jeep we do at 5k and all of our other cars get driven so little that they just get a change annually.

Quote:
The guy I copied the post from (see a few back) actually had his oil tested at 4,000 miles (first time) and guess what, it was fine. Was he just lucky?
Based on what I've seen on the other Pentastars and my own, yes. He was lucky. I don't believe for a second that his wear metals were good based on the amount of wear metals I saw in my filter the first three times I changed the oil.

Quote:
The folks that built & tested our engines say under normal conditions, do not let it go past 6 months or 8,000 miles. There is no recommendation to do it earlier for break in purposes. Do you not trust them? If so why do you follow the rest of the owner manual recommendations?
No, I don't trust them. Their maintenance program is designed to do one thing and one thing only: get the vehicle beyond the warranty period with minimal problems. Their maintenance program is not designed on what is best for the engine and other components over the long haul, it is designed based on a statistical analysis of what they can get away with.

Quote:
Do you change your transmission, differential, radiator or brake fluid sooner and more often than recommended? Why not? They are just as vital. I bet most don't check these fluids at all even at higher miles.
Yes, I change them all more than recommended because they don't recommend that most of them be changed. Ever. See above about the statistical nature of the maintenance program. If it will more than likely make it through the warranty without it, they won't recommend it. This is a marketing tool that makes the vehicle look cheaper to own.

Quote:
Do what you want it is your money. I used to belive in the 3,000 mile oil change myth until I started changing it myself and realized the oil I was taking out looked nearly as good as what I was putting in.
It isn't what you can see that you need to worry about. When I drain oil out of the SS or the Lightning it still looks brand new. But it's been in there for a year and has started degrading in who knows what ways. Do I believe in 3k mile oil changes on the average car? Nope. But they do have their place.

Quote:
Now a days there is an on board computer measuring driving conditions to back up my "unscientific dip stick sight analysis" when I check it between changes.
And when the engine has 200k miles on it and has 20% leakdown past the rings what do you think the computer will say? It will still say the same thing even though the oil will need changed more often.

Quote:
I am not trying to disparage anyone just save you a few dollars. If spending $20 every couple of months makes you feel better, why not actually send a sample into Blackstone for $25 to learn what is actually going on with your oil until you break the 3,000 mile no matter what habit?
Oil analysis has its own flaws. For example, if you have a new engine and want to know how far you can go between changes you will need to do a lot of testing to determine what that interval is. It may be OK to go 20k miles on an oil change, but to determine that you probably need to be doing an oil analysis every 1k miles to that point, and then you will need to repeat the experiment once or twice more to make sure the numbers are repeatable. By that time you're at 60k miles and you've spent $1500 on oil analysis plus three full oil changes and some top off oil (which by the way will ruin the experiment!). If you just changed the oil every 5k miles and called it good for that same number of miles you will have only spent $360 on oil changes. So what's the point of this analysis business? There is also the matter of an analysis not telling you anything useful until it's too late. If you've got wear metals in the oil the damage is done. If it was an airplane where an oil change is $100 and the difference between a basic overhaul and a full overhaul is $20k I see the benefit of oil analysis. In the automotive world it serves no useful purpose other than to satisfy the owner's curiosity.

Probably the biggest reason to change the oil when suggested is the warranty. If you don't do it how they tell you to and the engine fails, the repair will be on your nickel whether lack of oil changes was at fault or not.
08-20-2012 06:45 PM
Jeeperz Creeperz Back on topic. Even though I don't see the need to change it so early, your dealership should do what the customer wants. Either take it up with the service manager or find a different dealer.
08-20-2012 06:09 PM
Jeeperz Creeperz I am curious. Has anyone heard of anyone having motor failure for infrequent oil changes? I am not talking about an oil leak or never changing the oil. There are mechanics on this list. Have you?

My ex wife's brother was a shade tree mechanic. He would go 20,000 to 30,000 between oil changes. The oil was the cheapest he could find on sale. He would top the oil off every so often. He usually purchased cars with 80,000 or more on them and then put on another 150,000 with no engine oil related problems. This is anecdotal, I know but so are the "I changed it every 2,000 miles and never had a problem" stories. Would the results have been different if that person did the oil changes at 5,000 miles?

Those Castrol Oil TV commercials did their job...LOL! People changing oil at 1000 miles or less is proof. Unless of course you are racing or doing severe off roading.

The guy I copied the post from (see a few back) actually had his oil tested at 4,000 miles (first time) and guess what, it was fine. Was he just lucky?

The folks that built & tested our engines say under normal conditions, do not let it go past 6 months or 8,000 miles. There is no recommendation to do it earlier for break in purposes. Do you not trust them? If so why do you follow the rest of the owner manual recommendations?

Do you change your transmission, differential, radiator or brake fluid sooner and more often than recommended? Why not? They are just as vital. I bet most don't check these fluids at all even at higher miles.

Do what you want it is your money. I used to belive in the 3,000 mile oil change myth until I started changing it myself and realized the oil I was taking out looked nearly as good as what I was putting in.

Now a days there is an on board computer measuring driving conditions to back up my "unscientific dip stick sight analysis" when I check it between changes.

I am not trying to disparage anyone just save you a few dollars. If spending $20 every couple of months makes you feel better, why not actually send a sample into Blackstone for $25 to learn what is actually going on with your oil until you break the 3,000 mile no matter what habit?

I am not a part of that company and have never used them myself because I believe the experts that are saying 3,000 mile oil changes are a waste.

links:
Tests / Price List

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/gas-engine.php
08-20-2012 05:16 PM
GonzoBobH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubicondon53 View Post
Unless your engine came from the factory with synthetic oil, you should wait for your engine to " break in " before switching to synthetic. ...And yes,,,, I have always changed oil in a new motor at the 1,000 mile mark.
x2

Some want to change early, to remove metal particles -- and this is something I did as well.

I am waiting before moving to synthetics for the reasons cited above.
08-20-2012 05:00 PM
mackdj1 The bottom line is as long as you change your oil at scheduled times or when the indicator tells you to you will be fine. If you change it more frequently than others you're not going to hurt anything by doing that. I talked to a mechanic at an engine rebuild shop and they always recommend changing the oil after 500 Kilometres. Not sure what that is in miles.
08-20-2012 04:19 PM
firehawk
oil change

hi, i did my first oil change @ 1000 miles FFREE, next change will be @
3000 miles but i am not at that point., i don't drive much, but my jeep is
the best , i also get many coupons for oil changes for $19.95 from my local
dealer...
08-20-2012 03:55 PM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by -JC- View Post
I've been curious, where does the notion come from that a particular oil affects an engine breaking in? Is there a paper that discusses this? I've always been told that the driving style affects the breakin........varying speeds, slow and fast accellerations, stop and go, continuous speeds etc. Only since the introduction of synth have I been hearing about oil having any effect on this process.
Way back in the ages of the dinosaurs when we had flat tappet cams you needed special oil for to make sure they cam and lifters didn't eat each other during the initial break in. At that point we still had not put much effort into metallurgy, manufacturing techniques and the machine work that makes engines all pretty much identical these days. Until we moved beyond any of the traditional domestic engines I think you could make a strong case for the use of a break in oil. It isn't necessary on modern equipment.
08-20-2012 03:44 PM
-JC- I've been curious, where does the notion come from that a particular oil affects an engine breaking in? Is there a paper that discusses this? I've always been told that the driving style affects the breakin........varying speeds, slow and fast accellerations, stop and go, continuous speeds etc. Only since the introduction of synth have I been hearing about oil having any effect on this process.
08-20-2012 03:32 PM
SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilwell1415 View Post
+1 on all counts. We found metal shavings in our filter the first three oil changes. On the first change they were from the machining process. The other two appeared to just be wear metals.
+2
08-20-2012 11:29 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Up Hill Bill View Post
Actually, the Pentastar, partly because blocks and heads are manufactured without freeze plugs, has a history of problems, including a recall, because of metal shavings left in the engine from the milling process.

Members who have done early changes have found lots of metal shavings in the filter. There have been pictures posted on WF showing the metal in the folds of the filters.

But then, you're probably just a young whipper-snapper who shoots of his mouth without knowing what he's talking about... just sayin'
+1 on all counts. We found metal shavings in our filter the first three oil changes. On the first change they were from the machining process. The other two appeared to just be wear metals.
08-20-2012 11:29 AM
Jeeperz Creeperz Bluehen posted on the ticking pentastar thread an independent oil analysis at 4,000 miles on his Wrangler. It is clear that 4,000 on his was just fine for the 1st oil change. Blackstone analysis said the average tested was 3,900 miles.

Post number 1970, in case the link doesn't work and the report doesn't upload

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/upd...ml#post2683873

In case you can't see the small print:

Wear looks good in the first sample from your Wrangler. All metals read in the average range and we think the engine is doing very well. Universal averages for Chrysler’s 3.6 V6 are based on an oil run of 3,900 miles. The fact that you ran your oil longer and still got average wear means your engine is wearing better than most. If you want to try 5,000-6,000 miles next time, it should not be a problem. The oil was in good shape physically, containing no moisture, fuel, or coolant. Insolubles were low at 0.2% showing good oil filtration.
08-20-2012 11:21 AM
JMC03
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowerumble View Post
I think most would agree that 4 oil changes in the first 9100 miles, regardless of synthetic or natural was a waste. There was a post above that made a pretty good argument that unnecessary oil changes could even be detrimental. So being able to take advantage might not even be in your best interest....
The last one I didnt ask for, I was planning on going in around 11K seeing a lot of the miles I put on where highway, the dealer messed up kind of and did it.. My point was the difference between dealerships.
08-20-2012 10:53 AM
oilwell1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackforestgreen View Post
careful, you are showing your age. new metals and tighter tolarences have change this. you can add syn in the first 10 miles if you choose to. no ill effects.
+1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -JC- View Post
So clear something up for me.........engines that now come with sythetic oil from the factory are designed differently from engines that come with dino, such that the dino engines require dino to break in properly, and the synth engines require synth, and there is some magic time peiod where you can switch from one to the other? And just when? is that time period, and is it different depending on which direction you are going?
Engines are not designed for synthetic or conventional, they are designed to a spec. As long as the oil meets the spec you are good to go. From 98-02 the Corvette and Camaro/Firebird came with the same engine. The Vette got synthetic at the factory and the f-body got conventional. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of this out there.
08-20-2012 10:46 AM
59 jeep I would guess the "free dealer" oil changes are for "scheduled changes". Your owners manual will tell you every 8000 miles.(or 6 mths) I was going to change mine at 3000 and was told to read my owners manual....sure enough. Legally they wouldnt have to do it "free" until the 8000 mile mark or 6 mths....CRAZY !
08-20-2012 10:45 AM
CG3 Re: Oil filters removing all things unwanted.
I call wrong on that.
And to back that up, listen to Lake Speed on the above linked interview. IF the particle is the size the filter is designed to filter, you are good to go. If the particles (dirt, metal, whatever) is smaller, it goes right through... if larger, it doesn't go...
And yes.... X2 Up Hill Bill.......
08-20-2012 09:54 AM
enjerhoo Anybody recall ever changing a canister type filter? How about an oil bath in the air filter? Haven't seen those in a while. Been a long time since I pulled off a used oil filter without oil running down the side of the filter. Love the 3.6 filter location. Almost too easy.

Screw the waste idea. And early changing causing damage? LMAO. Sure. OK.

At $25-$40 per change, do you really want to risk your new 35K jeep. You probably do not need to check your tires every week either but you will feel like a moron if you get a flat from a slow leak in the valve stem (yeah yeah TPMS I know, just making the analogy).
08-20-2012 09:40 AM
Up Hill Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by davefr View Post
Well Grandpa,
Engine manufacturing has changed a lot from the Model T era and shavings aren't left in the engine. ....
Actually, the Pentastar, partly because blocks and heads are manufactured without freeze plugs, has a history of problems, including a recall, because of metal shavings left in the engine from the milling process.

Members who have done early changes have found lots of metal shavings in the filter. There have been pictures posted on WF showing the metal in the folds of the filters.

But then, you're probably just a young whipper-snapper who shoots of his mouth without knowing what he's talking about... just sayin'
08-20-2012 09:26 AM
Lowerumble
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMC03 View Post
IMO your dealer sucks if you get free lifetime oil changes and they told you no. I took mine in at 1000, 4000, 7000. I went for a road trip put 2100 miles on it in a week went to get a part replaced that they dinged up fixing the power doors and they changed it again at 9100 miles even though I didn't ask them, service guy thought I did.They post 5000 miles every time I go in and I change it every 3K.

I think most would agree that 4 oil changes in the first 9100 miles, regardless of synthetic or natural was a waste. There was a post above that made a pretty good argument that unnecessary oil changes could even be detrimental. So being able to take advantage might not even be in your best interest....
08-20-2012 09:18 AM
davefr
Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed150 View Post
Well the reason I change oil early in a new engine is all the various parts are breaking in and metal shavings, all the metal from the honing of cylinders, and everything else that is finding its best clearances is shedding metal into the oil. In my case it is at 500-1000 then usually 3000 after that unless it has a turbo
Well Grandpa,
Engine manufacturing has changed a lot from the Model T era and shavings aren't left in the engine.

Perhaps you should send out a 500 mile sample to a lab for analysis and see the data that comes back.
08-20-2012 09:07 AM
SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by -JC- View Post
My question apppears to be difficult to answer.
Not difficult but false. Engines aren't designed to run on just conventional oil or just synthetic. There is no required break-in period to run synthetic oil either. Synthetic oil is conventional oil that has been engineered so the molecules are uniform in size and then the typical additives added, just like regular conventional oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJeepman View Post
I think the answer is in the above link. Very interesting. I need to listen to it again.
Some other info from that link:
- oil is 85% base oil and 15% additives
- basically 3 companies making synthetic base oil
- basically 4 companies making the additive packages
- break-in oil, from years back, had extra zinc to condition the engine

Since an engine gets conditioned to the oil being used, say conventional oil, you might want to run a new oil, say PAO synthetic, a 1000 miles and then change it, to help remove the left overs from the previous oil. Sort of like a flush, like I said, I need to listen to it again. I wish they had discussed "high mileage" oils, aren't they basically "additional additives" oil?

Question on an exam this oil expert, Lake Speed, had to answer:
Q: When is it appropriate to add aftermarket additives to the crankcase oil?
A: Never
Now, isn't that interesting?
High zinc content is great for engine break-in, especially the rings and valvetrain. The drawback is if zinc gets past the rings and into the exhaust it is bad for the catalytic converter. Thats why oil companies stopped adding extra zinc.

I would agree with Lake Speed's answer. Oil already has anti wear, anti foam, anti-corrosion additives in it. No need to add any aftermarket stuff.
08-20-2012 08:26 AM
TJeepman
Quote:
Originally Posted by -JC- View Post
My question apppears to be difficult to answer.
I think the answer is in the above link. Very interesting. I need to listen to it again.
Some other info from that link:
- oil is 85% base oil and 15% additives
- basically 3 companies making synthetic base oil
- basically 4 companies making the additive packages
- break-in oil, from years back, had extra zinc to condition the engine

Since an engine gets conditioned to the oil being used, say conventional oil, you might want to run a new oil, say PAO synthetic, a 1000 miles and then change it, to help remove the left overs from the previous oil. Sort of like a flush, like I said, I need to listen to it again. I wish they had discussed "high mileage" oils, aren't they basically "additional additives" oil?

Question on an exam this oil expert, Lake Speed, had to answer:
Q: When is it appropriate to add aftermarket additives to the crankcase oil?
A: Never
Now, isn't that interesting?
08-19-2012 09:50 PM
-JC- My question apppears to be difficult to answer.
08-19-2012 09:45 PM
CTJeep623 I posted this on another thread about reguar / synthetic oil - thought it could be useful here too.. copying and pasting:

A month or so ago on Adam Carolla's podcast (good weekly listen) - Lake Speed Jr was on - he's an oil specialist, He is also the general manager and head of technical support at Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil. He gives lots of good information on oil and synthetic Vs. the dinosaur juice.

Follow this link or just look for it on iTunes...

Synthetic Oil with Lake Speed, Jr. & Audi R8 | Adam Carolla's CarCast
08-19-2012 08:36 PM
JMC03 IMO your dealer sucks if you get free lifetime oil changes and they told you no. I took mine in at 1000, 4000, 7000. I went for a road trip put 2100 miles on it in a week went to get a part replaced that they dinged up fixing the power doors and they changed it again at 9100 miles even though I didn't ask them, service guy thought I did.They post 5000 miles every time I go in and I change it every 3K.

Had a Cherokee with a straight six, I beat the snot out of it and traded it in at 160K still running good. So I swear by changing it every 3K. I also only put on about 9-10K a year baring long road trips, good amount of stop and go driving with a short drive to work.
08-19-2012 08:19 PM
DJL2
Quote:
Originally Posted by -JC- View Post
I love oil threads. They're almost as much fun as religion.........OH Wait, they ARE religion

So clear something up for me.........engines that now come with sythetic oil from the factory are designed differently from engines that come with dino, such that the dino engines require dino to break in properly, and the synth engines require synth, and there is some magic time peiod where you can switch from one to the other? And just when? is that time period, and is it different depending on which direction you are going?
Generally, engines are not designed for a specific oil...regardless of what the folks asking for your money tell you. Engines are designed for a specific oil viscosity, oil pressure, oil flow rate, lubricity/adhesion/cohesion. Engines might even be designed for a certain additive set, detergents, etc. If you choose an oil that falls within the acceptable performance range for the engine it doesn't matter even one tiny bit whose name is on the bottle and what is on the label.

Key differences between mutli weight/grade oils in both "dino" and synthetic varieties has to do with which grade is used as the base oil and what the additive package looks like. Additives can also be a key differences between brands and a good reason that a certain brand might be preferably to another. The trick is that the manufacturer is not going to publish the spec sheet for the engine with full details on the oil parameters.

I always enjoyed the Castol commercials growing up...you know the ones - you watch the crank/bearing run hot until the oil breaks down and the engine seizes during high temperature operation. (They still like to publicize fun tests)

Engines are pretty impressive if you think about it - for an engine that does 200,000 miles if you assumed that average vehicle speed was 40 mph that's 5000 hours (300,000 minutes) of operation. Even if you averaged only 2500 rpm for your engine speed, that's 750 Million revolutions. How many things can you think of that survive that many load/stress cycles?

I'll not say that an engine that leaves the factory is perfect. I will say that the starting quality of the engine has a lot to do with how long it will last. Folks like BMW and Mercedes will endurance test their engines and oil with continuous operation at 155 mph - they do this because they know that a properly designed and produced engine will not have its parts knocking into one another for any significant part of its life or operating cycle and that running it at high speed, high temperature will expose such a flaw in either design or production.

The reason I point that out is that if you have the sort of engine that, because of design or production, needs to wear its parts together over time there's only so much you can do for it. The sort of stress an engine experiences over its desired 750 million cycle life can only be mitigated so much by simply changing the oil (or driving habits for that matter). At some point, a good engine is a good engine and a bad engine is a bad engine.
08-19-2012 07:01 PM
krawdaddy I just follow the manual.

  • Wife's 01 Mustang GT.. every 5k. It has 143k miles and is our DD (62 miles round trip). No major problems, all changes at the dealer
  • My 06 Yukon, follow the DIC. Sometimes it's 7k, sometimes it's close to 10k. I went 12k once. First change was at 2500 (3 weeks after purchased, mostly towing!) It now has 135k and is used for runs between ATL and NOLA regularly (just got back, 1700 miles). No major engine problems... don't get me started on the POS transmission. All changes at the dealer
  • When I had my 02 TJ, I changed it myself. Whatever the manual said is what I did. I had about 45k on it when I sold it. Rear main seal leaked
When I get my 13 JK, I'll probably do a 3000 mile initial change and follow the computer after that.


I used to do my own changes, but it's not worth the time or effort anymore. I just take my iPad and watch a movie while I'm waiting
08-19-2012 06:56 PM
nosam no i didnt get that from my manual been doing 6 month oil changes in my vehicles last 25 years .
08-19-2012 06:43 PM
kik
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosam View Post
just changed oil in my 2012 jku at 1200 miles. i figure 30 dollar oil change cheap insurance.there is something that i didnt see mentioned.moisture in oil from short trips,sitting with temp change,or condinsation.some of my vehicles i change twice a year weather 1000 or 5000 miles.was always told to keep the moisture out.
Probably because it's in the manual. Chrysler indicates at least twice per year, not based upon mileage.
08-19-2012 06:40 PM
nosam just changed oil in my 2012 jku at 1200 miles. i figure 30 dollar oil change cheap insurance.there is something that i didnt see mentioned.moisture in oil from short trips,sitting with temp change,or condinsation.some of my vehicles i change twice a year weather 1000 or 5000 miles.was always told to keep the moisture out.
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