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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-28-2012 05:44 PM
DevilDogDoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
You'll either 'get' the mathematical component of suspension design or you won't. If you get it and truly understand it then you'll be able to do it without blinking an eye. If not, then you won't. You seem like you've got a good head on your shoulders so once you really buckle down and apply what you learned back in high school to this particular context, I think you'll get it and you'll see things a bit differently after that. Blaine doesn't do anything special, nor do I.....focus on building a good suspension with high clearance and good travel and do what it takes to accomplish that. Simple as that.

Any off-the-shelf one, perhaps. Just because it has longer or shorter arms doesn't mean it sucks anymore or less than Blaine's custom mid arm. It just means it has longer arms and may or may not have a larger footprint under the frame. One thing you need to stop focusing on so much is arm length and the titles associated with it......you'll progress a lot quicker with the educational phase of suspension design once you stop doing that.

Good discussion dudes. OP is learning some stuff.
Yes off the shelf is what I meant.....
12-28-2012 05:20 PM
streetbob84 Got some MT sidebiters and some 33 x 12.50 Firestone destination A/Ts to replace some steelies and cooper m/ts. Ride is a lot better. I will get some pics up soon.
12-28-2012 02:47 PM
WaterDR I would sell the jeep and pay the same price for one already modified the way you want it.
12-28-2012 12:21 PM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
You'll either 'get' the mathematical component of suspension design or you won't. If you get it and truly understand it then you'll be able to do it without blinking an eye. If not, then you won't. You seem like you've got a good head on your shoulders so once you really buckle down and apply what you learned back in high school to this particular context, I think you'll get it and you'll see things a bit differently after that. Blaine doesn't do anything special, nor do I.....focus on building a good suspension with high clearance and good travel and do what it takes to accomplish that. Simple as that.

Any off-the-shelf one, perhaps. Just because it has longer or shorter arms doesn't mean it sucks anymore or less than Blaine's custom mid arm. It just means it has longer arms and may or may not have a larger footprint under the frame. One thing you need to stop focusing on so much is arm length and the titles associated with it......you'll progress a lot quicker with the educational phase of suspension design once you stop doing that.

Good discussion dudes. OP is learning some stuff.
Yup, after reading some builds, and seeing how others have been doing it has been really helpful for me, things just seem to click better for me when someone post pictures or I get to look at it in person. I definitely learned a lot by reading the chronicles of your build, and I'm pretty sure by the time I can afford it I will have a pretty good understanding. I could say I have a basic understanding of how everything works now. The end goal is to be sitting on 35s with the most clearance and travel possible and put my buddies with bolt on long arms to shame .

Still a lot to figure out how to do this, but I got time . Fortunately I have all the tools to do this, just need to save the $$$. On a college budget it looks like I'll be eating lots of Ramen Noodles .
12-28-2012 11:23 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
That is true, but I still have a lot to learn to properly set everything up on a custom suspension like that. I can handle a short arm with a few touches of my own, but I don't feel comfortable building my own mid arm from scratch yet.
You'll either 'get' the mathematical component of suspension design or you won't. If you get it and truly understand it then you'll be able to do it without blinking an eye. If not, then you won't. You seem like you've got a good head on your shoulders so once you really buckle down and apply what you learned back in high school to this particular context, I think you'll get it and you'll see things a bit differently after that. Blaine doesn't do anything special, nor do I.....focus on building a good suspension with high clearance and good travel and do what it takes to accomplish that. Simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc View Post
My bad then, from your thread about the Clayton LA setup you had going on JF before it seemed like that was what your after. Blaine's setup will get you further up the trail than any LA setup will. Especially at JV.
Any off-the-shelf one, perhaps. Just because it has longer or shorter arms doesn't mean it sucks anymore or less than Blaine's custom mid arm. It just means it has longer arms and may or may not have a larger footprint under the frame. One thing you need to stop focusing on so much is arm length and the titles associated with it......you'll progress a lot quicker with the educational phase of suspension design once you stop doing that.

Good discussion dudes. OP is learning some stuff.
12-28-2012 11:11 AM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc View Post
My bad then, from your thread about the Clayton LA setup you had going on JF before it seemed like that was what your after. Blaine's setup will get you further up the trail than any LA setup will. Especially at JV.
I read 4 link and 3 link and jumped on it, didn't really think about it until later. Still debating on whether I want to get the short arms sooner, or save up longer and do Blaine mid arms. At least I got plenty of time to figure it out.
12-28-2012 11:10 AM
DevilDogDoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
No LA koolaid here, in fact we just talked to Blaine about some midarms.

I've been considering Savvy all around with coil correct and outboards as it seems to be a pretty popular setup but the midarm would be . Unfortunately just the parts for the midarm is awfully expensive. It's still something I'm considering for the future.
My bad then, from your thread about the Clayton LA setup you had going on JF before it seemed like that was what your after. Blaine's setup will get you further up the trail than any LA setup will. Especially at JV.
12-28-2012 11:09 AM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
It ain't 'cheap' but it doesn't cost much more than good bolt-on parts. Think about it--whether you're bolting up parts or going custom, you're still paying for JJ's, tube, etc. In joints, tube adapters, jam nuts, tube, steel for trusses/link bridges, and mounts I've probably got about $1600 in mine. I already had the track bar, springs, shocks and sway bars (had to make a couple other random purchases for the rear sway bar). All in all, if you're buying it all from scratch then plan on about $2500 everything. Not bad if you do the work yourself and end up with a top-notch suspension.

You talking about my old triangulated short arm setup? There are pictures in my build thread here, build thread on JF and probably some in this thread: Suspension Geometry - JeepForum.com
That was an absolutely kick ass suspension. I'm basically still running it, just with longer arms due to the axle being further back. The front is now a mirrored copy of the rear, minus one upper link missing.

A properly setup 'mid arm' suspension can work very well.....that's what I run now. But yes, bolting on parts is faster, cheaper and friendlier. The nice thing about high quality bolt on parts is that you can quickly resell them for a high percentage of the original cost once you're ready to move on.
That is true, but I still have a lot to learn to properly set everything up on a custom suspension like that. I can handle a short arm with a few touches of my own, but I don't feel comfortable building my own mid arm from scratch yet.

I have seen your old setup and read through a lot of those types of threads but I feel like I still don't know enough, just learning more each day, but it seems like the only way to figure it out is to actually do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
If you want to get fancy, move the coil buckets back and outboard the rear upper shock mounts and move the lower mounts up and out. Plate the axle end lower control arm mounts and add weld washers and trim the frame mounts. I've built a couple rigs almost exactly like this + some stuff and they are fantastic.
That's the rig I was talking about, sounds like what I want to do for the time being. And like you said when the time comes for bigger and better I will have no problem selling any of the Savvy parts
12-28-2012 10:54 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
LCG isn't very popular here and it seems like everyone always ends up throwing taller springs in, especially guys that wheel the hammers. I would like to run some of the hammer trails when this thing is done so suspension is pretty critical here.
I know. From talking with Blaine and checking out as many pictures as I can, it sounds like you need a minimum of 20" at the belly to not hate life in JV. 4" springs, 35's and a flat or close-to-flat skid will give you that with a TJ. I'm sitting at a hair under 20" at the frame and would probably bump up to 1-2" taller springs for JV. Like I said, keep it as low as you can, given the terrain you frequent. I play in some big rocks but they aren't JV-sized for the most part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
Talking with Blaine just the brackets, arms, JJ's, trusses are going to be about $1800. Heck, the JJ's themselves are $700. Still need the Fox Resi shocks, front TB, Coils, etc. Also there's no way I could do as good of a job as Blaine on something like that so I would have him do it. The cost adds up pretty quickly.
It ain't 'cheap' but it doesn't cost much more than good bolt-on parts. Think about it--whether you're bolting up parts or going custom, you're still paying for JJ's, tube, etc. In joints, tube adapters, jam nuts, tube, steel for trusses/link bridges, and mounts I've probably got about $1600 in mine. I already had the track bar, springs, shocks and sway bars (had to make a couple other random purchases for the rear sway bar). All in all, if you're buying it all from scratch then plan on about $2500 everything. Not bad if you do the work yourself and end up with a top-notch suspension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
Do you have any pictures/examples of how you moved the lower mounts on that short arm rig? Even a description of parts used would be good as I have never really seen anyone do that and would like to get some ideas for mine. Anything you do to the front at all?
You talking about my old triangulated short arm setup? There are pictures in my build thread here, build thread on JF and probably some in this thread: Suspension Geometry - JeepForum.com
That was an absolutely kick ass suspension. I'm basically still running it, just with longer arms due to the axle being further back. The front is now a mirrored copy of the rear, minus one upper link missing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
I'd still like to get Blaines mid arm in the future because it would be the most bad ass suspension around, but the cost of the short arm is a little more wallet friendly at the moment.
A properly setup 'mid arm' suspension can work very well.....that's what I run now. But yes, bolting on parts is faster, cheaper and friendlier. The nice thing about high quality bolt on parts is that you can quickly resell them for a high percentage of the original cost once you're ready to move on.
12-28-2012 10:35 AM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post

Custom is the way to go at anything above stock, frankly speaking. The question is, is the OP doing enough to warrant it? I doubt it. Knowing what I know now, it was the only way to go for me. IMO, stay as low as you can, given the terrain you frequent. If the OP needs more clearance under the frame then he should run taller springs. The lower you stay when retaining the stock mounts, the better.

You can build a completely custom suspension for about what the Currie kit costs. Obviously if you use heat treated chromolly or aluminum for the links, the cost goes up. It's not as expensive as you think.

Regardless of what he does, the suspension is the heart of the vehicle IMO. The largest difference in performance, feel and ride quality will be determined by the suspension. Also, mud isn't a problem for JJ's like it is for lesser quality joints. Just wash it all out well after wheeling.

OP, here's my recommendation.

Currie 3" or 4" coils
Fox shocks--appropriate length for the coils (Gerald @ Savvy can help you here)
Savvy arms all around
Currie track bars front and rear
Currie sway bars front and rear
Savvy UnderArmor (modular is a good choice)
Savvy gas tank skid
Currie steering
1" body lift
1" MML

If you want to get fancy, move the coil buckets back and outboard the rear upper shock mounts and move the lower mounts up and out. Plate the axle end lower control arm mounts and add weld washers and trim the frame mounts. I've built a couple rigs almost exactly like this + some stuff and they are fantastic.
LCG isn't very popular here and it seems like everyone always ends up throwing taller springs in, especially guys that wheel the hammers. I would like to run some of the hammer trails when this thing is done so suspension is pretty critical here.

Talking with Blaine just the brackets, arms, JJ's, trusses are going to be about $1800. Heck, the JJ's themselves are $700. Still need the Fox Resi shocks, front TB, Coils, etc. Also there's no way I could do as good of a job as Blaine on something like that so I would have him do it. The cost adds up pretty quickly.

Do you have any pictures/examples of how you moved the lower mounts on that short arm rig? Even a description of parts used would be good as I have never really seen anyone do that and would like to get some ideas for mine. Anything you do to the front at all?

I'd still like to get Blaines mid arm in the future because it would be the most bad ass suspension around, but the cost of the short arm is a little more wallet friendly at the moment.
12-28-2012 09:39 AM
kpla51 Go with savvy I took the dive and it's top notch Jerald is a great guy too he will help you with anything you need
12-28-2012 09:21 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped

I believe the code JF10 can be used on Savvy for 10% off. You may want to email Gerald and talk to him about your order.
Yep, I used that code recently.
12-28-2012 08:14 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetbob84 View Post
What kind of discount are we talking about?
I believe the code JF10 can be used on Savvy for 10% off. You may want to email Gerald and talk to him about your order.
12-28-2012 08:11 AM
streetbob84 What kind of discount are we talking about?
12-28-2012 07:51 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
How high do you want to lift? That really depends on what you get. The Savvy gear is nice and I keep going back and forth on this, but a 4" lift on stock control arms mounts kinda sucks. Hopping, and the axle getting sucked very fast under the Jeep due to the steep control arm angles is a real issue.
Actually, this is pretty spot on. But unless he's doing some harder stuff in which the geometric downfalls will be exposed, it'll be perfectly fine. If anyone wants to get into the geometry discussion, I've got plenty of experience and numbers to talk the talk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
You can cure some of the issue by relocating the control arm mounts on the axle to decrease the angle, Coil Correction, and Outboarding, but 3" is about borderline with short arms and stock control arm mounts IMO. Custom is the better way to go when dealing with 4" short arm lift.
Custom is the way to go at anything above stock, frankly speaking. The question is, is the OP doing enough to warrant it? I doubt it. Knowing what I know now, it was the only way to go for me. IMO, stay as low as you can, given the terrain you frequent. If the OP needs more clearance under the frame then he should run taller springs. The lower you stay when retaining the stock mounts, the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
If your only going to run 33s you could run 2" Coils, Savvy arms, and Metalcloaks or hilines. You could even throw a tummy tuck in there later if you wanted to. Otherwise suffer the effects of tall suspension on stock mounts.
With that large of a sum to spend, I would definitely make one big order through Savvy. Suspension, belly armor, gas tank skid and whatever else. Currie steering would be a solid addition. What good is a great suspension when you've still got that ugly, low-hanging belly skid and gas tank skid? OP, you can have a kickass suspension for half of your total budget. Spend the rest on the other good stuff that will make a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc View Post
Eh your drinking the LA koolaid it sounds like. I have no hopping at all on my Currie 4 inch on stock mounts. I went from my Tera 3 to the Currie and have had no ill effects from the inch difference. Tons of people run 4 inch short arm lifts with no issues, in fact everything Currie designed in susp revolves around the 4 inch short arm lift. Now other lesser quality lifts might be different....
Stock mounts are stock mounts, regardless of whose parts are bolted to them. Currie provides better parts than anyone else but the stock mounts are still where they always were. Geometrically speaking, it's far less than ideal but I don't think it will really matter to the OP. When it does, cut them off and go custom. Currie parts will always resell well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
No LA koolaid here, in fact we just talked to Blaine about some midarms.

I've been considering Savvy all around with coil correct and outboards as it seems to be a pretty popular setup but the midarm would be . Unfortunately just the parts for the midarm is awfully expensive. It's still something I'm considering for the future.
You can build a completely custom suspension for about what the Currie kit costs. Obviously if you use heat treated chromolly or aluminum for the links, the cost goes up. It's not as expensive as you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jeepn View Post
1st, what suspension is on it right now? For mud and sand, Your money might be better spent on Lockers, vs dumping it all into a tricked out suspension. Mud and sand equal, problems for most joints and frankly most of the jeep, so plan accordingly when you pick control arms and other parts to add.
Regardless of what he does, the suspension is the heart of the vehicle IMO. The largest difference in performance, feel and ride quality will be determined by the suspension. Also, mud isn't a problem for JJ's like it is for lesser quality joints. Just wash it all out well after wheeling.

OP, here's my recommendation.

Currie 3" or 4" coils
Fox shocks--appropriate length for the coils (Gerald @ Savvy can help you here)
Savvy arms all around
Currie track bars front and rear
Currie sway bars front and rear
Savvy UnderArmor (modular is a good choice)
Savvy gas tank skid
Currie steering
1" body lift
1" MML

If you want to get fancy, move the coil buckets back and outboard the rear upper shock mounts and move the lower mounts up and out. Plate the axle end lower control arm mounts and add weld washers and trim the frame mounts. I've built a couple rigs almost exactly like this + some stuff and they are fantastic.
12-28-2012 07:19 AM
Big Cole
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetbob84 View Post
Savvy 4 inch kit with anti rock and aluminum control arms - 2250
Tom Woods drive shaft and TF SYE - 525
Fox shox 2 PR - 500
JJ rear track bar - 289
Total - 3564

What else will I need to complete this job? I need to order it all because I can't have my jeep down for an extended period of time waiting on parts. Anything you could think of would help.
I just installed 8 Savvy control arms on my rig. Trust me, you are making an excellent decision. Don't forget that Savvy offers a discount to forum members. I would suggest skipping the TeraFlex SYE and purchasing the super short SYE from JB Conversions, which will set you up nicely for a tummy tuck.

Take a look at the aluminum tcase and engine skids made by undercover fabworks. I have a set and they are quality units.
12-28-2012 06:37 AM
streetbob84 I believe it is a 3 inch suspension lift. Cheap, just springs and shocks from the looks of it. Rides pretty rough. It has already destroyed a drive shaft and transfer case.
12-28-2012 06:24 AM
4Jeepn 1st, what suspension is on it right now? For mud and sand, Your money might be better spent on Lockers, vs dumping it all into a tricked out suspension. Mud and sand equal, problems for most joints and frankly most of the jeep, so plan accordingly when you pick control arms and other parts to add.
12-28-2012 12:22 AM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDogDoc View Post
Eh your drinking the LA koolaid it sounds like. I have no hopping at all on my Currie 4 inch on stock mounts. I went from my Tera 3 to the Currie and have had no ill effects from the inch difference. Tons of people run 4 inch short arm lifts with no issues, in fact everything Currie designed in susp revolves around the 4 inch short arm lift. Now other lesser quality lifts might be different....
No LA koolaid here, in fact we just talked to Blaine about some midarms.

I've been considering Savvy all around with coil correct and outboards as it seems to be a pretty popular setup but the midarm would be . Unfortunately just the parts for the midarm is awfully expensive. It's still something I'm considering for the future.
12-27-2012 11:45 PM
Gunner Savvy is whats going in mine. Any bucks left over goes for a Savvy GTS and Savvy underarmor.
12-27-2012 11:44 PM
TJammin metalcloak 3.5" short arm long travel game changer kit with metalcloak fenders. clearance all day, low center of gravity and completely bolt on with the exception of the rear shock mounts. if you still haven't spent that 5k by march, shoot me a pm and I'll tell you how much I like it
12-27-2012 11:36 PM
DevilDogDoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moabrubi View Post
How high do you want to lift? That really depends on what you get. The Savvy gear is nice and I keep going back and forth on this, but a 4" lift on stock control arms mounts kinda sucks. Hopping, and the axle getting sucked very fast under the Jeep due to the steep control arm angles is a real issue.

You can cure some of the issue by relocating the control arm mounts on the axle to decrease the angle, Coil Correction, and Outboarding, but 3" is about borderline with short arms and stock control arm mounts IMO. Custom is the better way to go when dealing with 4" short arm lift.

If your only going to run 33s you could run 2" Coils, Savvy arms, and Metalcloaks or hilines. You could even throw a tummy tuck in there later if you wanted to. Otherwise suffer the effects of tall suspension on stock mounts.
Eh your drinking the LA koolaid it sounds like. I have no hopping at all on my Currie 4 inch on stock mounts. I went from my Tera 3 to the Currie and have had no ill effects from the inch difference. Tons of people run 4 inch short arm lifts with no issues, in fact everything Currie designed in susp revolves around the 4 inch short arm lift. Now other lesser quality lifts might be different....
12-27-2012 09:42 PM
amiller Savvy or Currie 4" with antirock and all the goodies as said before. small body lift and a tummy tuck, sye/shaft, Novak tcase shifter cable, regear, tires. That should pretty well kill 5k. Edit... if any $ remains spend it on armor. Also, this includes you and your buds doing the labor.
12-27-2012 08:51 PM
trivium646 I know you want a lift, but hell, i would get another jeep with that cash
12-27-2012 08:48 PM
streetbob84 Savvy 4 inch kit with anti rock and aluminum control arms - 2250
Tom Woods drive shaft and TF SYE - 525
Fox shox 2 PR - 500
JJ rear track bar - 289
Total - 3564

What else will I need to complete this job? I need to order it all because I can't have my jeep down for an extended period of time waiting on parts. Anything you could think of would help.
12-27-2012 08:35 PM
Moabrubi How high do you want to lift? That really depends on what you get. The Savvy gear is nice and I keep going back and forth on this, but a 4" lift on stock control arms mounts kinda sucks. Hopping, and the axle getting sucked very fast under the Jeep due to the steep control arm angles is a real issue.

You can cure some of the issue by relocating the control arm mounts on the axle to decrease the angle, Coil Correction, and Outboarding, but 3" is about borderline with short arms and stock control arm mounts IMO. Custom is the better way to go when dealing with 4" short arm lift.

If your only going to run 33s you could run 2" Coils, Savvy arms, and Metalcloaks or hilines. You could even throw a tummy tuck in there later if you wanted to. Otherwise suffer the effects of tall suspension on stock mounts.
12-27-2012 08:32 PM
Jwolfer Buy the Savvy kit and give me the left over money
12-27-2012 08:30 PM
fourty4magjr i could do so much with 5k like 4" lift currie coils and control arms. bumpers, sye and drive shafts, regear and all the little stuff to complete the lift
12-27-2012 08:14 PM
2JeepsThatRun What height are you running now? Do you want it higher? Can you weld? Do you plan on getting bigger tires or heavy bumpers and such?

Basically you can stay with a short arm imo since your not on rocks and I would suggest buying a quality set of coils and shocks. Then buy completely adjustable upper and lower control arms with adjustable track bars as well. The best ones will have johnny joints in them.
12-27-2012 08:13 PM
DevilDogDoc Quit looking at the Savvy and order it. You will not regret it! 4 inch with Antirock and all the goodies.
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