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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-13-2013 12:12 AM
BLK00TJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepsrgreat View Post
LOL.....I need to find some sort of good step, slider, running board, climbing rope, etc before I go any higher. I'll need to add lift and step at the same time so she won't realize.
My wife won't get into my Jeep anymore. I laughed too hard the last time she tried and she's 4" taller than me.

Oh, and my Currie AntiRock was installed today. Only 2 trackbars, 4 springs, 8 control arms, SYE, and driveshaft to go. If she finds out I'll tell her it was all free after I sell off my old stuff.
01-12-2013 11:56 PM
jeepsrgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK00TJ View Post
Gotcha. That lift I posted above is on my dream lift for when I finally win powerball or megamillions. I see no other way my wife would let me spring for that any other way. Heck, I'm hoping my UPS man delivers my next batch of parts before she gets home on Friday. I need to hide them and put them on slowly over the course of weeks.
LOL.....I need to find some sort of good step, slider, running board, climbing rope, etc before I go any higher. I'll need to add lift and step at the same time so she won't realize.
01-10-2013 03:49 PM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakea94 View Post
Did you ever figure out how to disco?
I can walk you through
Disco died in the 70's, and needs to stay that way.
01-10-2013 02:02 PM
Drakea94 Did you ever figure out how to disco?
I can walk you through
01-10-2013 01:48 PM
97flexy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Have fun learning, everyone. My job here is done.
your never done on this forum.
01-10-2013 01:36 PM
Imped Have fun learning, everyone. My job here is done.
01-10-2013 12:30 PM
UnlimitedLJ04 Imped is spot on.

As he pointed out earlier...
Here's more....

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/corr...gth-70047.html
bumpstops, shock length, and tires size. help me iron out the fuzzy points.. - JeepForum.com
low lift, long shocks, and DIY shock shifters... what's the advantage? - JeepForum.com
What is a CV shaft and why do I want one? - JeepForum.com
So you want a Tummy Tuck... - JeepForum.com
tj front adjustable track bars for 0-3.5", does yours hit or fit? - JeepForum.com
TJ Tech BOOT CAMP: A must-read for new TJ owners/forum members - JeepForum.com
Outboarding rear shocks AND upper spring bucket relocation - JeepForum.com
Another Lcg, Hiline hood, Mid arms - JeepForum.com
Yellow, Red, Long and Soft.... - JeepForum.com
YJ Erection - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

If you truly want to learn, all that information should keep you busy for a few months.
01-10-2013 12:06 PM
jrussblues
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Answer: Shocks

Your axle can't travel any further up than the shock's compressed length, nor can it travel any further down than the shock's extended length. So when people pose up on walls and say "look how flexy this XYZ stuff is", I always first look at the shock mounts/coil mounts to see if they've been modified. If they're stock, then it's not the XYZ stuff being 'flexy.' It's simply the axles doing what they do and the shocks preventing any further travel.

I don't care if you've got 3" Currie springs or 3" ProComp springs--if you've got stock mounts and haven't done anything to effectively allow the use of longer shocks, then your shocks are about the same length as the next guy's on XYZ 3" springs. Therefore, your Jeep will 'flex' just as much as his regardless of what else you've got going on with your suspension.

So with that said, a few more questions to help provoke some actual technical discussion in order to help some people learn.

What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?

What happens when your shock allows more travel than your spring can support?

What happens when your shock travel exceeds the range of motion limitations of the control arm and track bar bushings?

And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?
Bump stops should be adjusted to prevent coils from binding and shocks from over compressing from a suspensions standpoint, they should be adjusted based on compressing one side of the suspension at full droop.

When a shock allows more droop than the spring can support then you would either want to go with a spring that will allow more droop while staying seated or add a limiting strap.

On the third one, I have only seen where the stock control arms will bend when they bind. I've also seen where excessive droop with rough play will damage the mounts and bushing.

On link suspension the downward force on a drooped tire will be much less with disconnects than if there is something linking it to the other wheel. This results in less traction on the drooping tire, which often needs the most traction.

Those are my answers, I'm sure there is a lot more to it than that though.
01-10-2013 11:55 AM
Gunner OK for the sake of my learning something I'm going to bite your bait. My experience comes from Road Racing and drag racing so I am learning 4x4 principles.
1.Bump stops are to slow down the compression stroke of the suspension and cushion the impact before it either coil binds or hits the shocks upper stop. Some shocks have built in bump stops but they tend to load the shock mounts way beyond what most are designed to do.
2.I would think that you would want to have a predetermined amount of extra travel to eliminate the possibility of the shock bottoming or topping out.
3. Something has got to give. If the joint won't allow the extra movement your going to either bend an arm or bend a mount.
4. In road racing the action of the sway bar is to reduce body roll and camber curve changes. This keeps a flatter contact patch on all 4 wheels. Even though a jeep is a solid axle as it lifts or drops on one side the tire describes an arc. This changes track width and contact patch width. It also because of our track bars changes the axle centerline. I don't run unhooked because I think it would allow too much body roll on off camber hills. I run an antirock to keep a bit of off side pressure on the down hill tire.
Ok boss my best guesses. I've seen your build so I'm waiting to learn 4x4 suspension 101.
Bob
01-10-2013 11:45 AM
Imped So with all of that said, is there a TJ-suitable coil spring that can support more than 12" of shock travel?

Nope, not that I've found.

So now back to the OP's question--what in the world is the best suspension for max travel?

Answer: Well, start out with some good 4" springs--Currie springs have the longest resting length I've seen. Next, order up some 12" travel shocks of your choice--Fox, Bilstein, etc. If you'd like to stay with stock control arm mounts, you had better get some components that can handle that kind of travel--you're basically left with Currie there as well or else you'll be wearing out bushings left and right. If you'd like to cut off all of the stock mounts and go custom, there's that option as well but that takes a bit more homework, knowledge and resources. If you'd like to move the rear shock mounts up and out, that's a great option but it, again, requires some knowledge and fab resources.

If you want more than 12" of travel, you might as well move away from the TJ tub and frame because you'll have to tear most of it up to make good use of it anyway. There are very few instances where more than that much travel is actually needed--plenty of KOH rigs and comp buggies run 12" travel. If you truly need more, build a buggy and start learning about coilovers , air shocks and ORI struts.

What if you want 12" travel with less than +4" on your TJ? You can do that too but you'll have to move the coil mounts apart so that you can fit a longer spring without moving up that amount. That's what I've done. I run 3" Currie coils and 11" shocks but only sit at about 1.5" over stock (19.5" at the frame rails on 37's).

OP, going by what you've said you don't need nearly as much travel as you seem to think you do. I do some of the toughest stuff in the midwest just fine with less than that.....believe me, if I thought I needed more, I'd have it.
01-10-2013 11:34 AM
GoldenSahara00 It's like there's almost real tech on WF, outside of a build thread

You make a great point about modified shock mounting, which is why they are on my list for the first mod after my axle swap. It's something that isn't very expensive to do at all, either, compared to the thousands of dollars people will drop on other things. It just takes time and knowledge, something people either willingly or unwillingly seem to lack anymore.
01-10-2013 11:28 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
Yes, shocks are the main contributing, or limiting, factor in overall travel. But, there are other things to consider that will affect travel, especially up-travel.Example- What if you have a 3" spring spacer and a front track bar that hits your fancy aluminum front diff cover? You would add appropriate bump stops, but you've severely limited up-travel, no matter how much compression the shock absorber might have left.
I'm not arguing, I'm discussing..
I know, look at the bolded word below. I'm starting this discussion at the most basic possible place and want to look at one component at a time. Therefore, toss everything out the window and look at just the shocks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
What ultimately defines how much travel a suspension has?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
Oh, and I'd like to hear your answer to this.
This has been discussed ad nausea on here and other forums. Here's a couple links for you with some very good discussion. If you need more, ask.
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/anti...-124765-4.html
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/rear...ar-156322.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
Mostly shock travel, but there are other factors. Do you have tire clearance issues? Front track bar clearance issues?
You're on the right track. Determine where the first instance of interference is--tire against the fender, track bar against the diff, etc--and either set the bump stops to prevent it from happening or change things up to move that instance down stream. For example, if I still ran stock fenders that'd be my first instance of interference by a long shot. But switching from those to highline fenders moved that instance far downstream, enough that it took a back seat to the track bar, diff cover and steering linkage all wanting to play in the same small space. My bump stops are set to prevent that from happening. That's how you want to go about it--then purchase a shock that will leave you with ~1/2" piston exposed at that point or set up the mounts to allow that. Let the springs determine where ride height is. But remember, you want a shock and spring that agree so do that once you've determined full bump.

EDIT: Nice answers, Golden.
01-10-2013 11:21 AM
GoldenSahara00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Answer: Shocks

Your axle can't travel any further up than the shock's compressed length, nor can it travel any further down than the shock's extended length. So when people pose up on walls and say "look how flexy this XYZ stuff is", I always first look at the shock mounts/coil mounts to see if they've been modified. If they're stock, then it's not the XYZ stuff being 'flexy.' It's simply the axles doing what they do and the shocks preventing any further travel.

I don't care if you've got 3" Currie springs or 3" ProComp springs--if you've got stock mounts and haven't done anything to effectively allow the use of longer shocks, then your shocks are about the same length as the next guy's on XYZ 3" springs. Therefore, your Jeep will 'flex' just as much as his regardless of what else you've got going on with your suspension.

So with that said, a few more questions to help provoke some actual technical discussion in order to help some people learn.
What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?

Limit suspension travel correctly, and set them to prevent the first instance of intolerable interference, whether it be from the tires, control arms, shocks, track bars, etc.

What happens when your shock allows more travel than your spring can support?

Either coil bind or unseating which the latter means effectively have no weight on that part of the axle/tire/ground without the weight of the jeep on it,other than the weight of the axle/tire itself, and everything else that goes hand in hand with those circumstances.

What happens when your shock travel exceeds the range of motion limitations of the control arm and track bar bushings?

You have to fix your arms and eliminate your track bar(s)

And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?

It doesn't allow the suspension to function as intended, and simply put decreases stability. Often times being disconnected can hurt you on the trail.


Those are some pretty basic answers to your questions. I think we could have a full thread on each of them.

I agree with the advice in this thread. You don't want to just spend money based on someones general advice on something you don't understand. Learn for yourself.
01-10-2013 11:12 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?
Mostly shock travel, but there are other factors. Do you have tire clearance issues? Front track bar clearance issues?
01-10-2013 11:10 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?
Oh, and I'd like to hear your answer to this.
01-10-2013 11:09 AM
Patrick H Yes, shocks are the main contributing, or limiting, factor in overall travel. But, there are other things to consider that will affect travel, especially up-travel.Example- What if you have a 3" spring spacer and a front track bar that hits your fancy aluminum front diff cover? You would add appropriate bump stops, but you've severely limited up-travel, no matter how much compression the shock absorber might have left.
I'm not arguing, I'm discussing..
01-10-2013 10:52 AM
Imped Answer: Shocks

Your axle can't travel any further up than the shock's compressed length, nor can it travel any further down than the shock's extended length. So when people pose up on walls and say "look how flexy this XYZ stuff is", I always first look at the shock mounts/coil mounts to see if they've been modified. If they're stock, then it's not the XYZ stuff being 'flexy.' It's simply the axles doing what they do and the shocks preventing any further travel.

I don't care if you've got 3" Currie springs or 3" ProComp springs--if you've got stock mounts and haven't done anything to effectively allow the use of longer shocks, then your shocks are about the same length as the next guy's on XYZ 3" springs. Therefore, your Jeep will 'flex' just as much as his regardless of what else you've got going on with your suspension.

So with that said, a few more questions to help provoke some actual technical discussion in order to help some people learn.

What are the purpose of bump stops and how does one go about determining where they should sit?

What happens when your shock allows more travel than your spring can support?

What happens when your shock travel exceeds the range of motion limitations of the control arm and track bar bushings?

And here's a big one--why does running disconnected put those of us with coil/link suspension at a disadvantage?
01-10-2013 10:25 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped

They're longer than stock but I wouldn't call them 'long arms.' But I also don't really give a crap about defining my arm length with a title. They're about 24" long and that's what they are.

Also, still waiting for someone to answer my question.
Yeah, me too.
01-10-2013 10:07 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
Imped and a few others have well thought out daily driver long arm rigs but they spent the time and money to get it right.
They're longer than stock but I wouldn't call them 'long arms.' But I also don't really give a crap about defining my arm length with a title. They're about 24" long and that's what they are.

Also, still waiting for someone to answer my question.
01-10-2013 10:03 AM
Gary2
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnDz TJ View Post
If you are referring to me.... ( maybe not )

I had a 2" BB on 31's in 2011. With discos, I did the Rubicon and drug my undercarriage everywhere... having to replace front lowers, skid and tank skid. I piece-milled my lift from various CL buys and couldn't be happier with what I have for the price. the BL was added after the 4" SL to make room for the TT at the t-case...well worth the added 2" of belly clearance.

And to answer your question of, "You would also find that it was probably better off-road before the 4" RC and BL "... NO... it was not better. The articulation was much less than with stock springs and BB... the ride was much harsher as well(mainly due to shocks). I cannot complain one bit with my capabilities in off-camber situations as I can now keep all 4 wheels on the ground and maintain traction as with before on 2" BB and 31's I would have to power over, lifting a wheel and dropping in when I finally made it... often making several attempts.... and I'm not getting bounced around as I was before (a lot has to do with going from 31's and 3.07's to 33's and 4.56's)
I am refering to the person who this thread pertains.. OP
01-10-2013 09:52 AM
Gunner Just get a Savvy 4 inch short arm kit and be done with it. Order the shocks they suggest and you will flex with most anything short armed. Imped and a few others have well thought out daily driver long arm rigs but they spent the time and money to get it right. Rough country is known for stiff joints which resist flex. JJ means Johnny Joints designed by John Currie. Those are what you get in the savvy kit. Unless you plan to spend well over 2 grand then what they are saying is to get some quick disconnects for your sway bar and you will be surprised at what your present kit will do with just that and correct length shocks. Don't forget to make sure the brake lines are long enough.
Bob
01-10-2013 09:35 AM
brs256 the choice is obvious stock springs with 4" pucks ... stock shocks ... and a 4" bodly lift with an 8 inch transfer case drop
01-10-2013 09:28 AM
Imped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick H View Post
The answer to that question would be multi-faceted.
Well, let's make assumptions that nothing wacky is going on. For example, a stock TJ and/or a TJ with a properly done suspension. The answer is simple and one-worded.
01-10-2013 09:25 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped
Here's a very simple question I'd like to see some answers to.

What ultimately defines how much travel a suspension has?
The answer to that question would be multi-faceted.
01-10-2013 09:05 AM
Imped Here's a very simple question I'd like to see some answers to.



What ultimately defines how much travel a suspension has?
01-10-2013 09:02 AM
TnDz TJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2 View Post
What you should of done was taken your Jeep out when it was pretty much stock and see how capable it is in that form with maybe just a set of discos. Then you would of had a better idea what you actually need . You would also find that it was probably better off-road before the 4" RC and BL .
If you are referring to me.... ( maybe not )

I had a 2" BB on 31's in 2011. With discos, I did the Rubicon and drug my undercarriage everywhere... having to replace front lowers, skid and tank skid. I piece-milled my lift from various CL buys and couldn't be happier with what I have for the price. the BL was added after the 4" SL to make room for the TT at the t-case...well worth the added 2" of belly clearance.

And to answer your question of, "You would also find that it was probably better off-road before the 4" RC and BL "... NO... it was not better. The articulation was much less than with stock springs and BB... the ride was much harsher as well(mainly due to shocks). I cannot complain one bit with my capabilities in off-camber situations as I can now keep all 4 wheels on the ground and maintain traction as with before on 2" BB and 31's I would have to power over, lifting a wheel and dropping in when I finally made it... often making several attempts.... and I'm not getting bounced around as I was before (a lot has to do with going from 31's and 3.07's to 33's and 4.56's)
01-10-2013 08:38 AM
Gary2 What you should of done was taken your Jeep out when it was pretty much stock and see how capable it is in that form with maybe just a set of discos. Then you would of had a better idea what you actually need . You would also find that it was probably better off-road before the 4" RC and BL .
01-10-2013 07:35 AM
TnDz TJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApDubzz View Post
what do you have done to your suspension?

Nothing special.... I will throw the brand names out there, too.... prices were right at the time and they serve me well to date with no issues

4" coils ( Rough Country )
adj. control arms ( Rocky Road Outfitters )
Rocky Road Outfitter shocks
swaybar disconnects ( Rubicon Express )
1.25" BL ( Rough Country )
UCF High Clearance Skid with LoPro mount
Rugged Ridge SYE
Tatton Rear CV shaft
RE1602 Rear Angled CV trackbar bracket.

Some additional info in Sig below...

There are much better quality parts on the market than what I have....

01-10-2013 01:38 AM
krisbman
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03Ruth

Glad I'm not the only one! I just use my credit card so she doesn't see it one the bank statement and have it delivered to work and my boss puts it in his office. She's pretty understanding when it comes to small items but anything over $100 requires an explanation!
Apparently mom & dad dont check his credit card!
01-10-2013 01:13 AM
03Ruth
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK00TJ
Gotcha. That lift I posted above is on my dream lift for when I finally win powerball or megamillions. I see no other way my wife would let me spring for that any other way. Heck, I'm hoping my UPS man delivers my next batch of parts before she gets home on Friday. I need to hide them and put them on slowly over the course of weeks.
Glad I'm not the only one! I just use my credit card so she doesn't see it one the bank statement and have it delivered to work and my boss puts it in his office. She's pretty understanding when it comes to small items but anything over $100 requires an explanation!
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