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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-26-2013 11:45 AM
tangofox007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger44 View Post
Well, I have had the new sensor installed for about two months, and I have run a couple full tanks through it, and I am now averaging between 13-15 mpg, which is much better than the 8-10 I was getting before the O2 sensor.
Evidently, the oxygen sensor inputs are a lot more critical than some folks claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
The ECU knows exactly how much fuel it should add based on certain tables.
03-26-2013 11:43 AM
RevCo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger44 View Post
Well, I have had the new sensor installed for about two months, and I have run a couple full tanks through it, and I am now averaging between 13-15 mpg, which is much better than the 8-10 I was getting before the O2 sensor.

Huge thanks to all who gave their input, and to Jerry for recommending the NTK sensors through Rock Auto. They were almost half the cost of the Bosch ones at AutoZone, and I liked the idea of keeping it OEM. (BTW, the faulty sensor that I took off and the PO replaced just last summer was in fact a Bosch sensor. Will not be buying Bosch in the future).

I will keep subscribed to this thread to offer any help to anyone else, and giving any necessary updates. Thanks for all the help. WF has been the best place for all the help I need.
Awesome, congrats on the millage matter. Good to know!
03-26-2013 11:31 AM
ranger44 Well, I have had the new sensor installed for about two months, and I have run a couple full tanks through it, and I am now averaging between 13-15 mpg, which is much better than the 8-10 I was getting before the O2 sensor.

Huge thanks to all who gave their input, and to Jerry for recommending the NTK sensors through Rock Auto. They were almost half the cost of the Bosch ones at AutoZone, and I liked the idea of keeping it OEM. (BTW, the faulty sensor that I took off and the PO replaced just last summer was in fact a Bosch sensor. Will not be buying Bosch in the future).

I will keep subscribed to this thread to offer any help to anyone else, and giving any necessary updates. Thanks for all the help. WF has been the best place for all the help I need.
02-09-2013 09:14 AM
RevCo666 My other o2 are on the way but delayed because of that huge snow storm (funny im just on the edge of it). Got gouged on the price because shipping is different from California and Ohio. Last time i ordered i payed 12$ from ohio for shipping. This time 42$ from California. What a jip.
02-05-2013 09:14 AM
RevCo666 Because its sold at Canadian Tire, you might not have access to it but there are similar products:
Catalytic Converter Cleaner (16 oz.) : Amazon.com : Automotive

This just an example but i would talk to your local shops first as thos might be snake oil... Btw code 42 i think means something to do with the catalytic converter.

:/
02-04-2013 11:08 PM
ranger44 I haven't heard of that before. I will have to try it and see. Cat could use a good cleaning, I'm sure.
I have not used a reader to get that code. The reader only told me of the faulty O2S. I am getting that from the diagnostic trick of turning the ignition on and off three times and having it give me the readout on the odometer. By replacing my power steering switch, the O2 sensor, and a couple other things, I have cleared all codes (I had like five or six...thanks PO) except that pesky 42. Hoping its not the fuel pump, but that is kinda the direction I am sort of reluctantly looking.
02-04-2013 09:31 PM
RevCo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger44 View Post
Before you order, be sure to check, I BELIEVE, the downstream sensor is a different number than upstream sensor. Hopefully it works out for ya. I just hope I can figure out this stinking 42 code and be done with emissions problems
Its 23142 and 23139 for the up and down streams. My brother inlaw mentioned using a product called cataclean for the catalytic converter. Apparently it cost about 20$ and its cleans it out...? Are you using a obd reader? Wish i could offer more help :/
02-04-2013 07:44 PM
ranger44
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevCo666 View Post
After double checking my ntk o2 sensors, got them installed today BUT it turns out i had one front and one back... So now i have to reorder both same parts and pay another 100$for the second set. Doesnt pay trust professionals sometimes. Oh well atleast next week it will be done and over with... And hopefully better mpg.
Before you order, be sure to check, I BELIEVE, the downstream sensor is a different number than upstream sensor. Hopefully it works out for ya. I just hope I can figure out this stinking 42 code and be done with emissions problems
02-04-2013 07:05 PM
RevCo666 After double checking my ntk o2 sensors, got them installed today BUT it turns out i had one front and one back... So now i have to reorder both same parts and pay another 100$for the second set. Doesnt pay trust professionals sometimes. Oh well atleast next week it will be done and over with... And hopefully better mpg.
02-04-2013 06:11 PM
ranger44 Old and new

Attachment 205760
02-04-2013 06:10 PM
ranger44 Installed my new NTK upstream sensor today and ran it for a few miles around town running errands (in the snow). No more CEL!!! Hopefully it stays off, however I am still getting DTC code 42. Any suggestions on what may be causing that? Also much fewer exhaust fumes smelled during driving and after about 30 minutes of idle. Happy for that as well.

Will keep you posted on how this effects my fuel economy.
01-29-2013 12:15 PM
RevCo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger44 View Post
This didn't help my situation.

Attachment 203018



Attachment 203018
When i got my jeep last summer, that was the first thing i asked to change when i brought to my mechanic. At first he was hesitant but afterwards he told me that it was a good call. My plugs were maybe not as bad as yours but close. Got my o2 sensors this morn, went to see my mechanic to double check the one i got. He's got the right tools to install so next monday is hopefully a better mpg day from then on.
01-28-2013 05:55 PM
ranger44 This didn't help my situation.

Attachment 203018



Attachment 203018
01-24-2013 11:49 AM
ranger44
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevCo666 View Post

Are you just changing the front 2 sensors or all four? As per earlier posts, I'm only going with the front two. Including cost of shipping way up here in Northern Ontario, its running me about 79$CAN. Its funny I checked how much the same ones my garage would charge me and just for both I was looking at 180$CAN... Crazy man... If possible lets try to keep the info going that way we can compare results... Sounds good?
I only have the 4-cyl, so there are only two sensors total. I am only changing the front one as well based on both what people have said here, and the fact that the PO changed them. He SAID he changed both, but the only one that looks "new" is the downstream. This also make sense since I am still getting the CE light and code.

Will definitely keep the thread going in the coming weeks to compare results. Good Luck!
01-24-2013 11:22 AM
RevCo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger44 View Post
I also pulled the trigger on the NTK sensor. Hope to install in the next couple days. I also appreciate everyone's input, and will post in the next couple weeks with (hopefully good) results!
Are you just changing the front 2 sensors or all four? As per earlier posts, I'm only going with the front two. Including cost of shipping way up here in Northern Ontario, its running me about 79$CAN. Its funny I checked how much the same ones my garage would charge me and just for both I was looking at 180$CAN... Crazy man... If possible lets try to keep the info going that way we can compare results... Sounds good?
01-23-2013 10:21 PM
ranger44
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevCo666 View Post
Well I bit the bullet, and decided to go with NGK/NTK as they are OE for my jeep. Only purchased both fronts O2 sensors. Today was the pinnacle of my decision as my odometer read 148km for almost 3/4 of a tank (70liters). I know its mostly in town driving, and yes I have been using my 4 Hi for atleast half the time but really, I should be getting atleast 300 on a tank for city driving. So once my order is in, and its not -30c without the windchill, I'll do the switch. Thanks everyone who offered up some info.
I also pulled the trigger on the NTK sensor. Hope to install in the next couple days. I also appreciate everyone's input, and will post in the next couple weeks with (hopefully good) results!
01-23-2013 07:08 PM
RevCo666 Well I bit the bullet, and decided to go with NGK/NTK as they are OE for my jeep. Only purchased both fronts O2 sensors. Today was the pinnacle of my decision as my odometer read 148km for almost 3/4 of a tank (70liters). I know its mostly in town driving, and yes I have been using my 4 Hi for atleast half the time but really, I should be getting atleast 300 on a tank for city driving. So once my order is in, and its not -30c without the windchill, I'll do the switch. Thanks everyone who offered up some info.
01-22-2013 07:54 PM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevCo666 View Post
Well I talked to my mechanic he said I may be wasting my time/money because the "check engine" light hasnt engaged... But I did get some quotes but I'm at a loss a side from knowing NGK does OEM for the jeep. The other types are Denso and Ac Delco. I was told to avoid Bosch as they are garbage...??? Any impressions or recommendations? I'm only gonna change both fronts in early spring. (getting my todo list in order by then...)
Get the mopar ones. I can't even count how many issues I've dealt with due to knock off cheap O2s. They don't cost that much more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
While that was true on my '97 TJ, that isn't true for newer TJs where the 02 sensor on the cat has been given more of an active role in checking the air/fuel mixture. I think that started somewhere around 2002 or 2003.
The more active roll, is in determining the catalytic efficiency for the emissions changes they made in 02 on all vehicles. The rear o2 sensor, on any vehicle, will never change the fueling my more that 2% in the most extreme cases. This is because the cat will start to be more inefficient over time and using AFR data, post cat, is never really useful (except at WOT on a dyno when it's not convenient to install a wideband precat and the exhaust flow is so fast the cat wont change it by more than about half a point). Why would any OEM choose to use data that can be confounded by cat performance when they have data that is not altered by the cat at all??
01-22-2013 07:32 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by js35 View Post
don't mess with the rear's they are just cat tattletales...
While that was true on my '97 TJ, that isn't true for newer TJs where the 02 sensor on the cat has been given more of an active role in checking the air/fuel mixture. I think that started somewhere around 2002 or 2003.
01-22-2013 07:29 PM
Jerry Bransford I've yet to have a bad 02 sensor trip the CEL light in any of my vehicles. Your comments regarding the various 02 sensor brands are what I'd go along with as well. Check them out at RockAuto Parts Catalog where you may find them cheaper as well as lots of information on each brand they carry.
01-22-2013 07:26 PM
RevCo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by js35 View Post
don't mess with the rear's they are just cat tattletales, fronts are always a good idea past 50-100k,
Well I talked to my mechanic he said I may be wasting my time/money because the "check engine" light hasnt engaged... But I did get some quotes but I'm at a loss a side from knowing NGK does OEM for the jeep. The other types are Denso and Ac Delco. I was told to avoid Bosch as they are garbage...??? Any impressions or recommendations? I'm only gonna change both fronts in early spring. (getting my todo list in order by then...)
01-22-2013 11:05 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
Your own explanation contradicts that notion.
No it doesn't. How so? Maybe re-read the post that you quoted me on. The ecu knows exactly how much fuel to add when all the sensors other than the O2s are in calibration.
01-22-2013 10:59 AM
tangofox007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
No, it is true.
Your own explanation contradicts that notion.

Your theory is comparable to claiming that a yardstick knows exactly how long an inch is, so there is never a need for a micrometer.
01-22-2013 10:56 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
If that was totally true, there would be no need for upstream oxygen sensors.
No, it is true. I've spend many hours going over how the ECU programming works on my 06 wrangler. I've tuned over 500 cars since I started tuning as a side job. The purpose of the O2s is to be able to adjust for other things as parts wear. The ECU does know exactly how much fuel to add based on the MAP, IAT, ECT, and TPS sensors. You can unplug your O2s and the ECU will run off these tables. If your jeep had all brand new parts you could run without O2 sensors. Once these sensors start to loose a bit of their calibration, the O2s become even more important. Remember that WOT open loop fuel is not based on the O2s at all, and that is where the fueling is even more important. (there is a max 2.15% correction that the O2s can save to the ECU that will adjust the WOT fuel) Wranglers wont go open loop until at least 14.4 seconds after WOT, and longer if the ECT is cool. (75 seconds at -20C)
01-21-2013 11:40 PM
tangofox007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
Not totally true. The ECU knows exactly how much fuel it should add based on certain tables.
If that was totally true, there would be no need for upstream oxygen sensors.
01-21-2013 11:40 PM
js35 don't mess with the rear's they are just cat tattletales, fronts are always a good idea past 50-100k,
01-21-2013 11:06 PM
RevCo666
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
not at all. O2s are the most important sensor on any gas based vehicle. I replace them every 50K miles, or less if boosted or on juice.
Ok, based on everyone opinion(which I appreciate big time!) I'll talk to my mechanic tomorrow as my jeep is already in the garage for a seperate issue(the passenger door wont open and I think its the pin/wire that connects to the cylinder lock is messed). I'de do the door myself but I cant even open it and working in -20c weather with no garage is not a fun thing hehe.

For a 2001 TJ 4.0 manual 5spd, there are 4 required O2 sensors? 2 in the front and 2 in the back? Searching the net and thats what I'm thinking based on this site mostly:

Experimental Insanity! - Jeep Oxygen Sensor FAQ

Sorry, but I'm a novice but trying to learn to do things for myself before running to my mechanic...
01-21-2013 09:51 PM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevCo666 View Post
Would it be a waste of time to just change them anyways?
not at all. O2s are the most important sensor on any gas based vehicle. I replace them every 50K miles, or less if boosted or on juice.
01-21-2013 09:49 PM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Bad 02 sensors seldom trip the CEL light because it's hard for the ECM (engine computer) to know when it is providing bad data.
Not totally true. The ECU knows exactly how much fuel it should add based on certain tables. The O2s give feedback to let the ecu know how close it really is. The fuel trims show EXACTLY how far off it is from stock. The one thing that is partly true is that it's difficult for O2s to throw codes because most ECUs (including wrangler's) throw the code when its past 25% off the normal.
01-21-2013 09:38 PM
Jerry Bransford Bad 02 sensors seldom trip the CEL light because it's hard for the ECM (engine computer) to know when it is providing bad data. 02 sensors eventually go bad and need to be replaced at certain intervals, just like spark plugs do. And when they go bad, it's common for them to cause the air/fuel mixture to go too rich.

And as said above, don't run 89, 91, or especially not 93 octane. Higher octanes don't burn any cleaner and they don't produce more power. In fact, the higher the octane, the harder it is for it to ignite and the slower it burns... just the opposite of what many people think.

Running too high of an octane can actually degrade engine performance and leave unburned deposits behind.
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