Jeep Wrangler Forum - Reply to Topic
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > TJ Jeep Wrangler Forum > TJ General Discussion Forum > Looking to buy headers

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Thread: Looking to buy headers Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
02-03-2013 03:04 PM
The Green Machine I keep reading on this forum that the Banks Torque Tube Header has a lifetime warranty, but their site says 5 years warranty. Do people here say it has a lifetime warranty by experience?
11-04-2012 10:59 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellsFishy
Great thread here! I was shopping new headers until I read this...

I too have the "annoying tick tick tick" on my '98 4.0L, (100k+ miles) which is likely a cracked header. Is there a consistent spot on the header where the cracks are being found? Are the cracks visible to the eye? Could it just be a bad gasket?

I'll be adding a cat-back exhaust upgrade while I have it all torn apart, but thats another thread.

Cheers,
Dean
Both cracked headers I had were cracked around the collector so that is where I would check first. They were easily seen while still installed on the vehicle. I guess it could be a bad gasket, but with as common as cracked headers are, that would be my first suspect.
11-04-2012 07:18 PM
SmellsFishy
find the crack...?

Great thread here! I was shopping new headers until I read this...

I too have the "annoying tick tick tick" on my '98 4.0L, (100k+ miles) which is likely a cracked header. Is there a consistent spot on the header where the cracks are being found? Are the cracks visible to the eye? Could it just be a bad gasket?

I'll be adding a cat-back exhaust upgrade while I have it all torn apart, but thats another thread.

Cheers,
Dean
10-31-2012 06:47 PM
willms81 I also agree with what you say about dyno results. There are far too many variables and should only be used as a general idea of what you could gain.
10-31-2012 06:45 PM
willms81 Thank you for taking the time to explain that. I am coming from inline 4 cylinder experience and wasn't an issue. Our issues stemmed from motor movement and an exhaust system that wouldn't flex or move with the engine. I am admittedly new when it comes to this motor and am trying to figure out how much of my prior knowledge will carry over to this platform.
10-31-2012 01:20 PM
UnlimitedLJ04
Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
If these are all cracking from engine movement, why not find some solid poly motor mounts or at a minimum motor mount inserts to keep the motor from moving so much? If anything you can fill the oem mounts with window weld and it will also help.
the reason the header cracks has absolutely nothing to do with the motor mounts.

the cracking issue is a result of the collector design itself. the 4.0L has a long head, and as such when it heats up it expands quite a bit in all directions. that means cylinder 1 is moving away from cylinder 6 as the motor generates heat. this movement means the headers and exhaust parts connected for some distance need to be able to deflect enough to account for this movement. if you look at a single piece header as a bending piece of steel, like someone is pulling cylinder 1 and 6 apart, the leverage point occurs wherever all the cylinders come together....at the collector (which is trying to serve as a hinge).

ok, now heat cycle that collector a bunch of times from freezing temps to 800°+F combustion temps, while loading the area with the leverage described above. If the design isn't flexible enough - it will break at the collector every time.

look at the one piece headers that crack - they all do so at the collector where multiple tubes come together, when they are in the same plane as the exhaust ports.

Jeep recognized that, and changed the exhaust manifold design in 2000. They went from a 6-into-1 "header-tube" collector style to a two-piece design. The 2-piece cast manifolds not only strengthened the "tube", but basically allowed the two sides of the head to flex separately with heat. they then attached a flexible two pathway downpipe, where the collector was under the oil pan - completely eliminating the possibility that collector could serve as a stress point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
Most people install headers for power gains. That's is the only reason I would install a set. Which may happen eventually.
well the power gains are negligible, so don't bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
But again, I would have to see an actual dyno sheet, not the computer generated crap posted above before making any decision on purchasing a header system for my 4.0
the problem is dyno's are easy to fool, and 10hp is well within the normal variability of these things.

look up jgorm's 18 dyno pulls on his Jeep. Just to prove how easy it is to skew a dyno, he saw a near 10hp gain by doing nothing but going from 30psi to 50psi in the tires. similarly, take a Jeep with 35s with 4.88s and dyno it against a stock Jeep with 3.73s and 30s...all other things being equal. The Jeep on 35s will show a heck of a lot less power. Or go the other way...take a Jeep on 35s, do a dyno pull, then swap on a set of 29s and do another pull. Bingo, you just gained 20hp....or did you?
10-31-2012 12:56 PM
willms81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cons_Table View Post
They only claimed 22hp when the banks torque tube header was used in conjunction with the banks monster cat back as well.
Good catch. So looking at the "dyno" again, header alone is a gain of 10-15 whp maybe?

Also, as I stated earlier where the power comes in has an effect as well. Another thing is I see no torque numbers. Another part of making an educated decision.

Even if those numbers are more truthful, that is a better gain than you will get on a 4 banger with a header over an OEM header.

Also keep in mind this isn't your ls-x that will add 30+ hp with the installation o0f a set of long tubes.

But again, I would have to see an actual dyno sheet, not the computer generated crap posted above before making any decision on purchasing a header system for my 4.0
10-31-2012 12:53 PM
willms81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
I hope you aren't really believing you'll get an additional 22hp with an aftermarket header when compared to the header that already comes on the 4.0L. That type of figure is a best-case when comparing headers vs. an inefficient cast exhaust manifold which is not what comes on the TJ's 4.0L engine. Ads like you obviously read are carefully worded to fool most readers of them.
Let me help you out here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
Effort to install is the least of my worries. A weekend in my garage and I'm good. As for pricing, again I haven't looked into them much yet. Also, IF the dyno above is anywhere near correct 22 whp gains are not insignificant. At 140 whp that is an increase of 15%. Not exactly small.

The cracking is a drawback, unless you take the necessary steps to keep the engine movement at a minimum.

Again, this all boils down to what you want out of your vehicle.

See that part in red? Go ahead and reread it.

I'll wait.

I don't randomly believe any add thrown at me. To think all advertising is true is asinine. This is where researching and making an EDUCATED decision comes into play. I know this is hard to understand on an internet forum, but there are other people that may actually have some sort of intelligence.
10-31-2012 12:53 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
I hope you aren't really believing you'll get an additional 22hp out of the 4.0L engine with an aftermarket header when compared to the headers that already come on the 4.0L. That type of figure is a best-case when comparing headers vs. an inefficient cast exhaust manifold which is not what comes on the TJ's 4.0L engine. Ads & marketing hype that talk best-case scenarios like you obviously read are carefully worded to fool most readers of them.
They only claimed 22hp when the banks torque tube header was used in conjunction with the banks monster cat back as well. Headers alone would be around 10hp at 5000rpm.
10-31-2012 12:51 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
Effort to install is the least of my worries. A weekend in my garage and I'm good. As for pricing, again I haven't looked into them much yet. Also, IF the dyno above is anywhere near correct 22 whp gains are not insignificant. At 140 whp that is an increase of 15%. Not exactly small.
The cracking is a drawback, unless you take the necessary steps to keep the engine movement at a minimum.

Again, this all boils down to what you want out of your vehicle.
We are also talking about at 5000rpm...it's not a race car lol?
10-31-2012 12:46 PM
Jerry Bransford I hope you aren't really believing you'll get an additional 22hp out of the 4.0L engine with an aftermarket header when compared to the headers that already come on the 4.0L. That type of figure is a best-case when comparing headers vs. an inefficient cast exhaust manifold which is not what comes on the TJ's 4.0L engine. Ads & marketing hype that talk best-case scenarios like you obviously read are carefully worded to fool most readers of them. And at 5,000 RPMs?
10-31-2012 12:40 PM
willms81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Will the insignificant gains from an aftermarket header be worth the significant $$$ and effort to install? Not even close in my personal opinion. Not to mention the most commonly installed aftermarket headers have earned a well-deserved reputation for cracking.
Effort to install is the least of my worries. A weekend in my garage and I'm good. As for pricing, again I haven't looked into them much yet. Also, IF the dyno above is anywhere near correct 22 whp gains are not insignificant. At 140 whp that is an increase of 15%. Not exactly small.

The cracking is a drawback, unless you take the necessary steps to keep the engine movement at a minimum.

Again, this all boils down to what you want out of your vehicle.
10-31-2012 12:33 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
That doesn't necessarily mean the design can't be improved upon.

Also, that is kind of like saying the oem exhaust is fine and can't be replaced to free up power.
Will the insignificant gains from an aftermarket header compared to the OE header be worth the significant $$$ and effort to install? Not even close in my personal opinion. Not to mention the most commonly installed aftermarket headers from Banks and Borla have earned a well-deserved reputation for cracking. Banks is about the only one to have finally come out with a better design, their Revolver, that seems to have solved their cracking issue that was solved years ago with the OE headers.
10-31-2012 12:27 PM
willms81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Not to mention the TJ's 4.0L engine comes with headers from the factory, not a cast exhaust manifold.
That doesn't necessarily mean the design can't be improved upon.

Also, that is kind of like saying the oem exhaust is fine and can't be replaced to free up power.
10-31-2012 12:25 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
As for power gains from a 4.0 header system, I don't know. Haven't done enough research to see what the gains are, where they are, and if there are any. I am toying with the idea but they are pretty far down on my mod list for right now.
10-31-2012 12:22 PM
Jerry Bransford Not to mention the TJ's 4.0L engine comes with headers from the factory, not a cast exhaust manifold.
10-31-2012 12:21 PM
willms81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Not many with experience with poly engine mounts will recommend them... which is why motor mount manufacturers like Brown Dog who initially only had polyurethane mounts later ended up adding rubber mounts. Polyurethane transmits engine vibrations that are isolated with rubber mounts which is why OE manufacturers use only rubber mounts. My first aftermarket engine mounts from Currie used polyurethane and I was happy later when I was able to replace them with rubber mounts.
Agreed on the extra vibrations, but it all comes down to what you want out of your vehicle.

I have personal experience with Energy Suspension motor mount inserts, and have been in 2 different cars that were running poly mounts. I know what the difference feels like. But in order to remove the horrendous spring bolt design from my car I needed to stiffen my mounts up when I replaced my entire system from the head back.

As for power gains from a 4.0 header system, I don't know. Haven't done enough research to see what the gains are, where they are, and if there are any. I am toying with the idea but they are pretty far down on my mod list for right now.
10-31-2012 12:17 PM
Jerry Bransford Not many with experience with polyurethane engine mounts will recommend them... which is why aftermarket motor mount manufacturers like Brown Dog who initially only had polyurethane mounts later ended up adding rubber mounts. Polyurethane transmits engine vibrations that are isolated with rubber mounts which is why OE manufacturers use only rubber mounts. My first aftermarket engine mounts from Currie used polyurethane and I was happy later when I was able to replace them with rubber mounts.
10-31-2012 12:14 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
If these are all cracking from engine movement, why not find some solid poly motor mounts or at a minimum motor mount inserts to keep the motor from moving so much? If anything you can fill the oem mounts with window weld and it will also help.
This depends if the driver wants any additional cab vibrations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willms81 View Post
Most people install headers for power gains. That's is the only reason I would install a set. Which may happen eventually.
Good luck...if you are to see any gains it will be at extremely high RPMs. Putting banks headers on didnt do anything for me other than change the tone a little when I open it up, but I was ignorant and bought into the ads and hype.
10-31-2012 12:05 PM
willms81 If these are all cracking from engine movement, why not find some solid poly motor mounts or at a minimum motor mount inserts to keep the motor from moving so much? If anything you can fill the oem mounts with window weld and it will also help.

Most people install headers for power gains. That's is the only reason I would install a set. Which may happen eventually.
10-31-2012 11:58 AM
Fallujahcoyote Did a rebuild in 09 and put BANKS Pro Power 2" headers and all. Stored my TJ for 13 months in NC while I was "out of town" then picked it up and back to daily driver. End state is less than 3 years and minimal miles I have multiple cracks and need to replace now. Jerry is right, usually is and BANKS simply makes too much money on other products to be concerned with Jeep owners. Gonna try to get replacement from BANKS with warranty but not recomending them if you have not spent the $$ yet.
10-22-2012 09:16 AM
UnlimitedLJ04
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvogel11 View Post
Hey guys, I have a 99 tj 4.0 and Im looking to buy headers for performance and sound reasons. Any tips? anyone selling? Things to avoid?

Thanks for the help
go to 2000+ cast style 2-piece manifolds from a WJ or XJ in the junkyard, with a new Walker downpipe 52317.
10-22-2012 08:36 AM
Kill The Infidel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cons_Table

Notice the "crinkled" part of the header that looks like it could flex. However, if u are not experiencing an exhaust leak (annoying tick) then I don't see why u would need to change anything.
That is the philosophy that I live by too. I was looking to swap it out for a little more power, but if I run the risk of messing up a good thing, im not gonna worry about it
10-22-2012 12:08 AM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill The Infidel
Uh, how do you tell if you have flex joints. I am taking my 97 on a long road trip in march and am trying to bullet proof and fix any problems that could arise. I was looking at a header because I hear they crack
Notice the "crinkled" part of the header that looks like it could flex. However, if u are not experiencing an exhaust leak (annoying tick) then I don't see why u would need to change anything.
10-21-2012 10:26 PM
Kill The Infidel Uh, how do you tell if you have flex joints. I am taking my 97 on a long road trip in march and am trying to bullet proof and fix any problems that could arise. I was looking at a header because I hear they crack
10-16-2012 12:58 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Both Banks and Borla are well known for cracked headers on the 4.0L. Banks had to come out with the beefed up Revolver design to stop from cracking. For what they cost I would sure just go with the updated factory design with the pair of flex joints... they are well known to hold up fine.
I bought the Banks before I found this forum and knew any better. I got sucked into the marketing If I had it to do over again, I would have gone the cheap route and bought the stock replacements with the flex joints. My jeep came from the factory with them...but after 11 years finally cracked.

Thankfully Banks has an awesome warranty and is easy to work with...now I can only hope these Revolvers hold up like they are supposed to.
10-16-2012 12:53 PM
Jerry Bransford Banks' and Borla's headers are both well known for cracking on the 4.0L. Banks had to come out with the beefed up Revolver design to stop theirs from cracking. For what their headers cost I would sure just go with the updated factory design header with the pair of flex joints... they are well known to hold up fine.
10-16-2012 12:44 PM
Cons_Table
Quote:
Originally Posted by philk View Post
the oem with the flex portion crack but not there, dont waste your time withone, do a banks or borla, or do it again a year later.
My jeep is a 99...assuming the original owner never replaced the headers, that means my jeep got 11 years and 84000 miles out of the stock set.

I replaced the stock set with the Banks 2 years ago (after probably 20000 miles) due to a crack.

So unless the Revolver headers fix the cracking issue...the flex joints make more sense. $100ish for stock replacements and 11 years of abuse...or $300ish for Banks and 2 years of abuse...hmmm.

I dont know about you guys but replacing headers is a crappy job...I hate it. I rather not being doing it every 2 years.
10-16-2012 12:39 PM
Cons_Table About 2 and a half years ago I bought the Banks Torque Tube Headers. About 6 months ago, they started leaking. Climbed underneath...and sure enough 2 nice cracks in the headers (I would post pics if I was at my computer at home). I called the warranty and they sent me a new set...which are the new Revolver headers. They have been on for probably 4 months...no issues yet (minus a bolt that started backing out, creating a leak...my fault though). Only time will tell if the Revolvers fix the cracking problem.
10-16-2012 12:31 PM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennisondan View Post
is the OEM now fitted with a flex portion to stop the tendency to crack?
or do I need to go with a later OEM, ??
I have a cracked exhaust manifold to replace.
thanks
dan kennison
Early '99 headers did not have the flex joints, that upgrade came later in the '99 model year. My dealer replaced my '97 TJ's cracked headers twice under warranty with the original non-flex joint version so I had three headers in a row that cracked. Then my dealer replaced it again but with the updated header in late '99 that had the flex joints and it worked fine without cracking for the next 11 years and 160K miles. The new version header was fine the last time I saw that TJ when it was stolen in 2010.

The updated factory design with the flex joints is well known to hold up, it certainly did for me after the three previous non-flex joint headers cracked.
This thread has more than 30 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59 PM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC