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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-07-2013 08:55 AM
Scottdozerjeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioviper View Post
I think all the snorkels on the market are designed large enough to allow the needed air flow.
The benefit is that they are drawing in cold air from outside the engine bay as well as drawing it in from up high away from any water.
And what is it with the price of a snorkel? I'm seeing prices of 500 dollars and up. Omg...for a tube they pulls air from outside engine bay. I can't do it for that price. I get the ability to submarine the jeep and keep going, but that price kills the deal.
08-29-2013 06:41 AM
JEEPDON Poor horse!!!!!!!!!
08-29-2013 06:14 AM
Scottdozerjeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRubi12 View Post
Ive been looking for a new cold air intake for my 2012 JK Rubicon
I have no idea about intakes, so any advice would help
-Thanks
I'm installing airaid cai system only because stock air box broke while changing air filter, plastic junk! Airaid has cleanable reusable filter and easy install, according to video. I ordered today based on install video and other research. Not expecting performance increase but easy access to filter without plastic parts from mopar breaking.
03-06-2013 11:27 AM
bloodfart
Quote:
Originally Posted by doufus1 View Post
CAI = Waste of money
As I was thinking about the differences between 35" tires and 33" tires, it reminded me of this thread! Everyone says to go with 35s coz you'll want them once you go with 33s. That's not a bad idea, but when you think about the thousands of dollars extra you end up spending on 35s once you take everything into account, over just going with 33s, is it not a waste of money just to gain an extra inch? that's a good investment in the eyes of most, but if you think about it, how is that any different than paying a couple hundred bucks on a CAI to unleash 3 more ponies?
02-24-2013 10:50 AM
Jkrgv Read back a few threads I wrote the info in a bit more detail. It bolts on directly
02-24-2013 10:06 AM
COStrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by doufus1
CAI = Waste of money
There's a guy who's uninformed and ignorant^

Visit the dyno sheets. Then post something of relevance
02-24-2013 07:36 AM
schnizdawg There use to be an old trick of drilling a bunch of half inch holes on the bottom half of the air filter box to increase flow and give that sound you are looking for from a CAI. I did this on a buddy's miata like 15 years ago and the results were amazing. It sounded just like the CAI on my car at the time. Has anyone tried this? It's a free mod and may fulfill all of those who are interested simply in the gargle of a CAI. If you are going to attempt this, ONLY drill the bottom half of the air box to look like Swiss cheese! If you drill holes in the top half you are bypassing the filter. That would be just plain stupid.
02-24-2013 07:09 AM
Jeep757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkrgv View Post
I have an 08 jku with modified exhaust, superchip programmer(set at 93 performance), k&n complete intake system. I'll be the first to tell you it made a difference. I have in the past 8 months been reading posts and gathering info about install a dodge Viper throttle body on a 3.8. I want to tell you this is a great mod. The TB on the viper is much larger, bolts on directly, plugs in directly, and does not set off any warning lights. It was the cherry on the top of all the other mods. I have not put it on a dyno, but my rear end knows!! Lol. Really it's not an expensive mod the TB new from dodge dealer will cost 149-175 depending on dealer.
You can put a dodge viper throttle body on an 08 jk/jku? What do you gain by doing so? First time ive heard about this.
02-24-2013 05:14 AM
doufus1 CAI = Waste of money
02-23-2013 04:22 PM
1Topp
02-23-2013 02:02 PM
ohioviper Food for thought. In many cases less restrictive intake and exhaust can lower torque.Back pressure in an exhaust and smaller intake can increase low end torque.
02-23-2013 01:57 PM
Jkrgv I know you were not trying go come across negative. I just wanted 3.8 owners to know we can still hope. We wish we all had 3.6 motors. But then I would still want to get it to 300 + hp. Oh well. 😃👍
02-23-2013 12:53 PM
Mopar2Ya
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkrgv View Post
I know the 3.6 is different not all of us get 285 hp out of the box. We have to work to get there and we still have a hard time getting close.
My response wasn't an insult, the OP asked about a 2012 3.6L, which is what I thought this thread was about. A 3.8 CAI cant be bolted onto a 3.6, is my point. Also the Viper TB wont fit the 3.6. I never said anything about hp.
02-23-2013 12:33 PM
Dmactampa Interesting thread. I have the Airaid CAI. What was I expecting to get from it? A little deeper sound, and that's what I got. We're talking 8hp at best. What is 8hp going to do? Nothing but improve hwy gas mileage, which happens to be countered by any wind or hill you may hit. Torque should be the focus because that's what gets you moving. More torque, faster vehicle. Horsepower helps the motor power through the shift to throttle into the torque band. Even still we are talking a few lb ft at best. My opinion in the CAI is to complement an aftermarket exhaust to deepen the tone. If you're looking more more than that you'll be disappointed.
02-23-2013 12:13 PM
Jkrgv I know the 3.6 is different not all of us get 285 hp out of the box. We have to work to get there and we still have a hard time getting close.
02-23-2013 09:40 AM
Mopar2Ya
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkrgv View Post
I have an 08 jku with modified exhaust, superchip programmer(set at 93 performance), k&n complete intake system. I'll be the first to tell you it made a difference. I have in the past 8 months been reading posts and gathering info about install a dodge Viper throttle body on a 3.8. I want to tell you this is a great mod. The TB on the viper is much larger, bolts on directly, plugs in directly, and does not set off any warning lights. It was the cherry on the top of all the other mods. I have not put it on a dyno, but my rear end knows!! Lol. Really it's not an expensive mod the TB new from dodge dealer will cost 149-175 depending on dealer.
Good info, but the 3.8 is completely different than the 3.6.
02-23-2013 07:39 AM
Jkrgv I have an 08 jku with modified exhaust, superchip programmer(set at 93 performance), k&n complete intake system. I'll be the first to tell you it made a difference. I have in the past 8 months been reading posts and gathering info about install a dodge Viper throttle body on a 3.8. I want to tell you this is a great mod. The TB on the viper is much larger, bolts on directly, plugs in directly, and does not set off any warning lights. It was the cherry on the top of all the other mods. I have not put it on a dyno, but my rear end knows!! Lol. Really it's not an expensive mod the TB new from dodge dealer will cost 149-175 depending on dealer.
02-18-2013 01:25 PM
SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodfart View Post
And here we have it:
"In the case of the Challenger, a more aggressively designed intake air system is the enabler for the 13-hp (9.7-kW) increase vs. the other longitudinal fitments, allowing an airflow increase from 214 to 220 g/s. "

If you read through, the differences come in the intake manifold (2 designs) and the "intake system" (which could really only mean the tb, intake tube design and size, filter and airbox design and size.

But before people start running out hoping to get 13hp increase it should be remembered that there is a difference between engine hp and hp at the WHEELS! Manufacturers put the engine on a dyno, where we meassure the power coming from the wheels! Taking drivetrain loss into account as well as the fact that in normal conditions we're not revving our engines that hard, we end up with usefull power increase of pretty much what we saw in the jk that got dynoed
Again FWIW, the 3.6s (Wrangler, GC, Charger, Challenger) share the same throttle body.
02-18-2013 12:31 PM
overblown
Hmmmm, this sounds so.......strangely familiar
02-18-2013 11:05 AM
bloodfart And here we have it:
"In the case of the Challenger, a more aggressively designed intake air system is the enabler for the 13-hp (9.7-kW) increase vs. the other longitudinal fitments, allowing an airflow increase from 214 to 220 g/s. "

If you read through, the differences come in the intake manifold (2 designs) and the "intake system" (which could really only mean the tb, intake tube design and size, filter and airbox design and size.

But before people start running out hoping to get 13hp increase it should be remembered that there is a difference between engine hp and hp at the WHEELS! Manufacturers put the engine on a dyno, where we meassure the power coming from the wheels! Taking drivetrain loss into account as well as the fact that in normal conditions we're not revving our engines that hard, we end up with usefull power increase of pretty much what we saw in the jk that got dynoed
02-18-2013 09:07 AM
positrak 2011 Pentastar is Chrysler's new do-it-all V6


Pentastar Engines: Overview and Technical Details


Quote:
Much design-engineering focus went into routing the intake and exhaust systems to optimize output. (Because the present variants are internally the same, horsepower differences between north/south and transverse applications are strictly due to routing and shape of intake and exhaust systems, and software calibrations.) In the case of the Challenger, a more aggressively designed intake air system is the enabler for the 13-hp (9.7-kW) increase vs. the other longitudinal fitments, allowing an airflow increase from 214 to 220 g/s

Quote:
Despite the four variants of the 3.6 already being sold — rear drive (290 hp), AWD (292 hp), FWD (283 hp), and Challenger (305 hp), there are just two head designs, two intake manifolds, and one set of internal components, including cam and pistons


02-18-2013 08:23 AM
DJL2 Fellows & Ohio - you're not wrong about the torque. The P-star does its best work up high - the top end of the dyno chart, between 5000 rpm and redline, is generally where you see those 20 extra ponies between what we run in our JK and what someone in their Charger is running.

As to longer intake runners and the like - sure, that might be a efficiency loss in terms of the added flow, but if you provide less turbulent air to the actual engine it could be an efficiency gain in terms of how the engine actually breathes.

Yes, ECU tune is important - you just need to make sure the hardware supports the tune. Lots of folks tune their engines differently depending on the model. The Camaro and Firebird featured downtuned LS1 engines in my youth because no one wanted a pony car, f-body or whatever you call 'em running with anything like the BHP found in the 'vette. Porsche similarly neuters the Cayman to avoid a confrontation with the 911. BMW uses the exact same I-6 engine in different states of tune in everything from the 1-series to the 7-series. Granted, that wears a turbo and is easily tunable, but you cannot help but get a little pissed when you realize BMW gave your engine another 20-25 ponies in a different tune for different model.

@Bloodfart - not sure on cams. I think there are two different head designs, so that could be a factor. Does the compression differ between P-start tunes?

Honestly, I bet you could take the P-star in the JK and throw in different heads, new throttle bodies, freer flowing intake, redesign/swap the exhaust manifold, eliminate the cats, upgrade the exhaust, adjust the valve timing, and then re-match the fueling and ignition timing for an engine producing substantially more power than the stock offering across the RPM range - though you'd want to trailer that rig. For the ROI, you'd be better off going with forced induction - so I believe.
02-18-2013 06:31 AM
Fellows
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioviper
I would imagine the change in manifold is more for design and placement of the intake pipe and air cleaner than anything.I would also venture a guess that the reduction in hp in the wrangler is a marketing ploy to keep people that buy Chargers ect from getting pissed when they read the a Jeep has the same hp as them.Or possible that while using the same engine in several different models they want to make it appear unique while it is not.

In other words no secret sauce just smoke and mirrors. Tune the ecm to what they want and market.
Looking it up, it looks like the 3.6 can make from the factory 20 more hp but only 3 more ft lbs of torque. You might be right about the marketing, but also optimizing performance is probably much easier on a car considering you don't have to protect anything from the abuse a Wrangler would likely see ( like the intake for example). When we're only talking that much horsepower and torque though, the Jeep's shape alone would make it feel negligible on the highway.
02-18-2013 04:08 AM
ohioviper I would imagine the change in manifold is more for design and placement of the intake pipe and air cleaner than anything.I would also venture a guess that the reduction in hp in the wrangler is a marketing ploy to keep people that buy Chargers ect from getting pissed when they read the a Jeep has the same hp as them.Or possible that while using the same engine in several different models they want to make it appear unique while it is not.

In other words no secret sauce just smoke and mirrors. Tune the ecm to what they want and market.
02-18-2013 02:46 AM
Fellows So why would Jeep bother putting a different manifold on the Wrangler? Would it be to exchange high end power for low end torque? It's important to know the purpose the vehicle is going to be used for before rigging everything on the engine to mimic a performance car.

Also, there is more to it then just assuming all restrictions are bad. Maybe in the 70's this was true, but now if you were to lose the catalytic converter you'd lose low end torque and your engine would actually run worse without EGR. Some cars come with variable length intake runners, if all restrictions were bad, why would they bother with the longer intakes?
02-17-2013 11:14 PM
SilverSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioviper View Post
I think its the obvious many are overlooking. The tune on the ecm is where the power is at.
I believe the same. The throttle body on 3.6L used in the Charger has the same part number as that for the Wrangler. The TB on the Charger engine mounts to the side of the intake and not the front like pours. I doubt there is much different internally between the two intakes.
02-17-2013 10:55 PM
ohioviper I think its the obvious many are overlooking. The tune on the ecm is where the power is at.
02-17-2013 10:22 PM
bloodfart
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJL2
The only thread I saw linked in here with actual numbers was the one for PieFace - I can go back and read it again, I suppose, but I got it the first time - even traded some PMs with him during and after.

PieFace really went the extra mile to make that data available - and what it ought to tell all you super savvy engine builders, tuners, racers and all around knowledgeable fast guys is that when Chrysler says the key difference between the different states of tune in the different 3.6L engines is primarily down to the intake manifold it might be worth listening. And if you want the link to that, I recommend Google-Fu.

Seriously, ask yourselves how it is that this engine makes 20 more ponies stock in another vehicle after you look at the dyno curves we're all so in love with. Look at the chart PieFace put up - it doesn't take a genius to realize the 3.6 chokes to death in the Wrangler around 4500 rpm. If you want it to really breathe and make the power it's capable of you're going to want to do something about that - and by something I mean you're going to need more than just a filter that feeds more air to an overly restrictive intake system.

If you want an intake upgrade, great, buy one. If you want a new exhaust, great, buy one. However, don't slap on a few parts that marginally increase airflow by addressing components other than those most restrictive in both the intake and exhaust and then talk about all the magic happening.

Maybe I'm jaded, but it's pat. I've read enough periodicals in my life to recognize something - that lots of folks adopt the exact same writing style when they take their personal views to the internet. From motorcycles, to BMWs to Jeeps everyone loves to rave about their "butt dyno" and "throttle response" - you could literally interchange the proper nouns for the same article/review and derive most everything that has even been written about filters, exhausts, tuners, chips, cats, throttle bodies, whatever.

So, call a spade a spade - if you want to enjoy the great sound and the extra handful of ponies, go nuts. Don't throw up the "WRX does this" and "my 'Vette gains XX HP" smoke and mirrors - maybe they did, but I don't see the data and it's not germane in the slightest. I love the name calling and the sensational claims as much as anyone in these threads - but, please, if we're going to natter on about hard data can we actually have some?

Does anyone have any idea what the actual mass flow rate is on the JK's intake? Do we want to guess that maybe it's around 213 or 214 g/s and that, perhaps, the 305 hp tune flows around 220 g/s? I'll go out on a limb - we know the 3.6 is offered with two intake manifold designs. One tune on the 3.6 develops between 286-292 bhp and the other is around 305 bhp - would it not be reasonable to conclude those intake manifolds might have something to do with that?

If it were me, and I really wanted more power out of my 3.6, I'd be looking really hard at how to get the higher flowing intake manifold under my hood - then I'd worry about whether I needed a snorkel, a CAI, and new filter, whatever. Better yet, get forced induction and really start to make some power where you actually use it.
I wonder if the cams are different between the different pentastar flavors. That would also be a huge bottleneck
02-17-2013 10:02 PM
DJL2 The only thread I saw linked in here with actual numbers was the one for PieFace - I can go back and read it again, I suppose, but I got it the first time - even traded some PMs with him during and after.

PieFace really went the extra mile to make that data available - and what it ought to tell all you super savvy engine builders, tuners, racers and all around knowledgeable fast guys is that when Chrysler says the key difference between the different states of tune in the different 3.6L engines is primarily down to the intake manifold it might be worth listening. And if you want the link to that, I recommend Google-Fu.

Seriously, ask yourselves how it is that this engine makes 20 more ponies stock in another vehicle after you look at the dyno curves we're all so in love with. Look at the chart PieFace put up - it doesn't take a genius to realize the 3.6 chokes to death in the Wrangler around 4500 rpm. If you want it to really breathe and make the power it's capable of you're going to want to do something about that - and by something I mean you're going to need more than just a filter that feeds more air to an overly restrictive intake system.

If you want an intake upgrade, great, buy one. If you want a new exhaust, great, buy one. However, don't slap on a few parts that marginally increase airflow by addressing components other than those most restrictive in both the intake and exhaust and then talk about all the magic happening.

Maybe I'm jaded, but it's pat. I've read enough periodicals in my life to recognize something - that lots of folks adopt the exact same writing style when they take their personal views to the internet. From motorcycles, to BMWs to Jeeps everyone loves to rave about their "butt dyno" and "throttle response" - you could literally interchange the proper nouns for the same article/review and derive most everything that has even been written about filters, exhausts, tuners, chips, cats, throttle bodies, whatever.

So, call a spade a spade - if you want to enjoy the great sound and the extra handful of ponies, go nuts. Don't throw up the "WRX does this" and "my 'Vette gains XX HP" smoke and mirrors - maybe they did, but I don't see the data and it's not germane in the slightest. I love the name calling and the sensational claims as much as anyone in these threads - but, please, if we're going to natter on about hard data can we actually have some?

Does anyone have any idea what the actual mass flow rate is on the JK's intake? Do we want to guess that maybe it's around 213 or 214 g/s and that, perhaps, the 305 hp tune flows around 220 g/s? I'll go out on a limb - we know the 3.6 is offered with two intake manifold designs. One tune on the 3.6 develops between 286-292 bhp and the other is around 305 bhp - would it not be reasonable to conclude those intake manifolds might have something to do with that?

If it were me, and I really wanted more power out of my 3.6, I'd be looking really hard at how to get the higher flowing intake manifold under my hood - then I'd worry about whether I needed a snorkel, a CAI, and new filter, whatever. Better yet, get forced induction and really start to make some power where you actually use it.
02-17-2013 09:30 PM
COStrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schocker65

For all the "answers" in that linked thread, there is only one Dyno result comparing a stock intake to an aftermarket one (AFE in this case). Still good info, though. Surprised again on that Dyno comparison that it shows mid-range gains. This actually makes me a bit more intrigued by an intake.
Yea. I didn't mean to be rude, but those dyno sheets tell a story. One that can't be misinterpreted. You will feel it, and hear it. If it'll burn you to have spent that kinda dough, don't
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