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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-19-2009 12:51 AM
rrich Glad you found it, don't feel bad, we've all done things like that.

That's why it's a good policy to not throw stuff away until the job is completely finished.
04-19-2009 12:47 AM
parrot head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willbanks View Post
PROBLEM SOLVED :
I know some people say autolite is a good plug and I know some people say it is crap. From this experience I will never ... ever ... use autolite plats again.
Autolite but it won't
04-18-2009 11:55 PM
daanbc Glad to hear you solved the problem. They always say it's the simple things that you don't think of.
04-18-2009 10:45 PM
Willbanks PROBLEM SOLVED :

I feel like a real idiot but I'm going to explain what ended up causing and resolving the misfire problem.

As everyone read the problem started after replacing the spark plugs. So I replaced the spark plugs again, then the wires, then the wires again because they were 8mm wires for my camaro, then replaced the cap and rotor, then the coil. I was out there today trying to do the compression test again and do what rrich suggested. The spark plug i pulled out was an autolite platinum, I guess when I was changing the plugs for the second time I got mixed up and put the same damn plug back in instead of switching it with the champion plug.
I went out and bought another champion plug ( i threw the other away on accident I guess ) and the problem is gone, the jeep runs like a beast. I know some people say autolite is a good plug and I know some people say it is crap. From this experience I will never ... ever ... use autolite plats again.

I want to thank all of you for taking the time to try and help me solve this problem, it's good to know I have some where to turn for help.
04-18-2009 07:23 PM
rrich You should be able to test the EGR Valve once it's off. Turn it upside down, pour some rubbing alcohol in the cavity - it shouldn't run out past the valve.

If the valve seems OK, do a compression check on at least the #1 cylinder, best to do them all though. Surely someone around there has a compression gauge to borrow. Does the base have a hobby shop?

When checking compression - Be sure to disable the ignition, prop the throttle wide open, and watch each pulse as you crank it. The first pulse should be about 90% of the end result after 4 or 5 pulses. Do all cylinders the same way - same number of pulses.
Even a bad cylinder can look OK if you crank it long enough.

If one is much lower than the others - I suspect #1 will be low - add a tablespoon of motor oil in the hole, crank it over 3 or 4 revs, then take another reading with the gauge, same as before.

Let us know what you find.

Bosch Platinums are killers unless the head was designed around them. There are only a few vehicles that can use them, even though the promoters say otherwise.
Personally, I'd like to see them made illegal. I've seen way too many engines with problems or even destroyed by them.

You can even spot them with a scope - they look like they are fouled, even brand shiny new.
04-18-2009 02:01 PM
Willbanks Ok rrich I'm going to try the EGR valve thing. I think the #1 cylinder has a problem then, because even though the other plugs were not that noticeable the #1 didn't do any thing, but it was getting spark. I'm not sure why the plugs were broken, they looked like platinum bosch, but they were real old like they have never been changed before.

If it is a timing problem what can I do?

Also I took the exhaust off at the headers but that damn thing is LOUD and to be honest I'm afraid to test drive it because I live on base. Not much better if I go off post because I'm in Hawaii and their smog laws are so bad they may sentence me to death if they catch me.
04-18-2009 08:43 AM
meyers Are you sure your wires are on right and you didn't knock the timimg out when you changed the cap and rotor? I would check like others have said for a dead cyclinder, but it sounds like a tiimg issue, or a disconnected vacuum line.

Only thing that could have happened is if the camaro plug was longer they could have come in contact with the tops of the pistons and thats what cracked the ends of the plugs. Alot of plugs will fit the same hole size wise but the real variable is in the electrode and insulator length etc.
04-18-2009 05:13 AM
rrich I wonder if you misunderstood or it's a good indication of something else:

While it's running at idle you pulled a plug wire off at the distributor, it should drop in RPM around 100-200 RPM. When you replace it, it should go back to normal again. Doing that on each plug wire, one at a time, will find a specific cylinder that's misfiring. The one that doesn't drop as much tells us alot. If more than one, it's another big clue.
The computer will try to keep the speed constant using the IAC, but it should drop the RPM, then the computer raises it back up, but there's a delay of at least a second or two. You'll feel it drop, then go back up. When you put it back on, it'll actually run a little fast a moment - the opposite of when you pulled it.

They should all drop about the same amount.

But - if what you said is correct, pulling one does nothing, and they all are like that - then there's another possibility:

You had chunks of ceramic flying around - I wonder if a chunk of it got caught in the EGR Valve? If so, the valve could be hung open.
Here's why I wonder -- Pulling a wire stops a cylinder from firing, but some of the fuel from that cylinder gets recycled through the EGR Valve (if it's open) and richens the other 5 cylinders. The drop in RPM in the one cylinder is offset by the other 5 speeding up a little - thus no change.

First remove and plug the vacuum line to the EGR - see if it makes it run better.

If not, remove the EGR Valve and look at the underneath side (they come off easy) - you'll see the plunger is supposed to seat fully in the hole (valve seat.) If not, determine why. Sometimes a bent stem, dirty stem, or even the wrong vacuum applied to the valve can cause it to stay open when it shouldn't.


The reason the plugs were overheated and broken, still isn't clear - were the wrong plugs used?
Were they Splitfires, Bosch or some other so called "high performance" plug?
Timing set way too advanced?

That in itself will help.

And -- check that compression!

One of the first things a shop will - or should do - is put their scope on it to see how the cylinders are firing. Then they will do the same test as pulling the plug wires one at a time, but electronically with the scope. By the scope pattern and a shot of propane they should be able to quickly determine what's wrong.
Expect to pay an hour's labor.

If they start experimenting by throwing parts at it - RUN!
04-18-2009 01:13 AM
daanbc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willbanks View Post
I already replaced all that with vehicle specific parts. I didnt notice anything when i unplug the wires while its running.

I'm thinking about running open headers to see if my cat converter is messed up, does this sound like a good idea?
If you didn't notice anything while unpluging the wires when its running, then thats the problem. The motor should have deff. ran different when one of the plugs was not firing. Did you check all one at a time or just the first?
04-17-2009 11:55 PM
Willbanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
I know it sounds like a dumb question -
I saw you used the plugs you bought for the Camaro? Are the numbers EXACTLY the same as what's called out for the JEEP? That seems unlikely they are the same.

And then - when you got another set from the parts house - did you ask for them by make, year, and model of the JEEP - not the Camaro or anything else? Not the old plugs!!!

What happened when you did the compression check?

I already replaced all that with vehicle specific parts. I didnt notice anything when i unplug the wires while its running.

I'm thinking about running open headers to see if my cat converter is messed up, does this sound like a good idea?
04-17-2009 07:57 PM
rrich I know it sounds like a dumb question -
I saw you used the plugs you bought for the Camaro? Are the numbers EXACTLY the same as what's called out for the JEEP? That seems unlikely they are the same.

And then - when you got another set from the parts house - did you ask for them by make, year, and model of the JEEP - not the Camaro or anything else? Not the old plugs!!!

What happened when you did the compression check?
04-17-2009 06:49 PM
Willbanks I just replaced the coil ... no go.

That makes the whole ignition brand new.

I'm about to pull the plugs while its running to see if I can notice a difference this time. Does anyone else have any suggestions before I take it to a mechanic?
04-15-2009 08:50 PM
Jerry Bransford When troubleshooting a misfire problem years ago, I installed an Accel coil just to see if my OE coil had gone bad. It made no difference and it certainly didn't improve anything performance or fuel economy-wise. The TJ's ignition system is actually very good as is.
04-15-2009 08:21 PM
rrich I'd go with a stock coil. So called "performance" coils are a joke.

And in my opinion, Accel stuff is worthless. They make it yellow to impress Jr High kids.
04-15-2009 01:58 PM
Willbanks +The sucking noise is fixed. I think it stopped making that noise after I checked the gap on all the plugs.

+I do plan on replacing the coil today. Any suggestions on what coil to get would be appreciated. I was looking at an Accel coil that read pretty good on the description/performance.
+I will also pull the plugs while while running again to see if I can locate the problem. The last time i tried this i just got shocked 6 times and couldn't tell much of a difference.

This whole problem started when i changed the spark plugs. THEN I changed the wires 30 minutes later to try and fix it.

Also, it IS making the thumping noise like its straining. I have put about 25 miles on it so far since this started. How long do you think it would take to burn off would could be causing this?

If I cant get this fixed by Friday I will most likely take it to a mechanic. I'll be sure to post the final resolution to this problem. I found a few dead threads with the exact same problem i am having but was NEVER updated with the final results.

Thanks for all the advice
04-15-2009 09:20 AM
nutsandboldts05
Quote:
Originally Posted by parrot head View Post
I just re read your original post. Did you find the sucking noise? You may have disconnected or damaged a vacuum line while working on the tune up.
Good catch, I didn't notice that at first until you posted.

Definitely check for the "sucking" noise.
04-15-2009 07:52 AM
parrot head I just re read your original post. Did you find the sucking noise? You may have disconnected or damaged a vacuum line while working on the tune up.
04-15-2009 07:48 AM
MOz Have you checked your primary coil?
04-15-2009 07:46 AM
parrot head How about putting the old wires back on? The problem started when you did the tune up right? If it runs the same with the old wires then at least you've eliminated one variable. I would also try the old cap and rotor if the old set of wires doesn't change anything.
04-15-2009 01:52 AM
rrich The cylinders probably have deposits left in them from before. Run it awhile, see if it clears up - or gets worse. If it starts the "thump thump" from a dead cylinder, pull that plug and have a look. If the plug looks good, do a compression check on that cylinder.
You might have to clean the plug a couple of times till the deposits are gone.

To decide which cylinder is not firing properly, simply pull each plug wire out of the cap - if it was working, it'll miss and slow down. If it's not firing properly, it won't make any change. Preferably use insulated pliers, but once you pull the wire out, you are holding onto a dead wire - the shocking voltage is in the cap tower.

Hopefully the deposits in it will burn off, rather than internal engine damage.

The Sea Foam in it shouldn't make any difference, but don't add anything else. If there's much room in the tank, add some fresh gas.

Carefully watch engine temp and oil pressure too.
04-15-2009 01:08 AM
Willbanks Ok i replaced the spark plugs with champion coppers. And i have to say even though I'm still having the problem it runs on the better end of bad. I'm still having code 43 and im still having power/stutter problems.

So far:

Replaced wires
Replaced plugs x2
Replaced Distributor Cap/Rotor
Checked firing order
Ran Seafoam through TB and Gas tank

Any suggestions from here?
04-14-2009 09:10 PM
parrot head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.
I have only had spark plug issues twice in my life. Both times they were fairly new plugs. Both times the whole end of the plug burned away, I mean electrode insulator all gone so that it looked like someone melted the end with a cutting torch. Two different vehicles, both times they were Autolite plugs. Both times I replaced them with another brand and had no further issues with either vehicle. I will NEVER use Autolite products again.
Just my own experience.
04-14-2009 01:16 AM
DUCKIT [QUOTE=Jerry Bransford;354302]Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.[/QUOTE
I'm with Jerry...............I have been Running Autolite AP985 gap. at .035 without any problem
04-14-2009 01:02 AM
Willbanks Didn't have time to throw different plugs in, was at the range all day watching people attempt to qualify. I'll definitely post the results as soon as I get around to replacing them tomorrow.
04-13-2009 02:30 PM
nutsandboldts05
Quote:
Originally Posted by za_mhz View Post
sorry guys i gotta ask. What is this seafoam you all speak of?
Sea Foam

It works wonders on all types of applications. It can be bought at most local auto parts stores.
04-13-2009 01:55 PM
za_mhz sorry guys i gotta ask. What is this seafoam you all speak of?
04-13-2009 12:00 PM
rrich Autolites another good one - I wouldn't hesitate to use them either. He He - my only gripe about them is they seem to be a little thinner than the others - seems like I'm always breaking them putting them in and out. But that's just me.

One time I was having difficulty with plugs - seemed like they all were way too cold and fouling out or too hot and burning up. I don't remember the brand, probably AC's or Champs because I stocked them. I compared some I had to some I took out of a vehicle - same number but very different.
I found out later quite a bit of my cabinet stock was mislabeled at the factory, plugs and boxes had the wrong numbers on them. Since we weren't sure which were right and which were wrong, the Mfgr took them all back and gave me new ones.

I ended up sending my mechanic to my customer's homes to swap in the new ones - an "in home recall!"

That's why I suggested getting the plugs from a different parts house - just in case.

Sea Foam - even oil based it shouldn't cause trouble in the small quantity - unless it cleaned out a ton of junk in the tank and lines - still a good thing.

We'll see when he changes to the correct "stock" plugs if they fouled or burned up. Please be sure to let us know.

Remember - Jeep is American - Bosch, NGK etc isn't.
04-13-2009 11:50 AM
jpdocdave i'm not a big fan of autolite, but they are perfectly fine in many applications, such as ford. i can't prove it, but i thought motorcraft and autolite are from the same manufacturer. but i've seen autolite cause many problems in imports.

autolite is probably ok in jeep, but champion is the same price, and we all know that is the way to go in a jeep before the direct ignition.
04-13-2009 11:19 AM
slf41002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.
X2 I have used and recommended Autolite quit often.Now if he had said Bosch I would have had to have agreed with him


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
So many of the plug mfgr's are trying to cut down on the vast numbers of plug variations. Streamlining inventories makes sense. Plus the advent of all the new "trick plugs" that they are all trying - because they have a higher profit aren't helping.
They are trying to get "one size fits all" - ask your wife how clothes like that fit her. No matter what anyone says, a plug that's designed for a Yugo won't work right in your Jeep!

Look at a parts BOOK - at Champion or AC plugs, notice the huge amount of plugs. Now look at the Bosch BOOK - very few numbers to cover the same vehicles? How do you think they can do that when others can't?

When a head is designed the engineer designs it around a particular plug - he's not just thinking of reach, but has to consider fuel types, heat range at ALL speeds and loads, indexing when torqued to spec, - all kinds of things. He selects the plug designs around it.

Substituting something else, especially a "trick" plug is rarely even close to what the designer wanted.

Using the wrong plugs can easily and quickly destroy an engine. Will Bosch or anyone get you a new engine because YOU used plugs not recommended by Jeep?

Run it awhile with the correct stock plugs - then do a compression check. Hopefully you are lucky.

The SeaFoam in the tank shouldn't make any difference, unless you used gallons of it. I believe it's an alcohol based product, it might lower octane very slightly, but not enough to notice.
I think the sea foam is a mineral oil base but I have seen it foul out an old set of plugs but not distroy them.
04-13-2009 10:46 AM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by parrot head View Post
Autolite makes junk plugs. I'm sure their wires aren't any better.
Sounds like Ford vs. Chevy, not many including me would agree with your Autolite claim. I've been using Autolite plugs for many (maybe even long than you have been alive) years with great success and have been recommending them for years on many Jeep forums as well with literally everyone who reported back saying the same thing... their quality is literally as good as any brand of plug out there.
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