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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-03-2013 01:40 PM
OhSixTJ Would someone trying to figure out something like this take all the results and average them? I understand you'll want to show the absolute best vs absolute worst, but someone armed with this info can just average all of the runs and make their own decision as to whether its worth it or not.
04-03-2013 01:37 PM
InvisiblePants That is correct, most people will take the highest outlier, and claim it is the best thing since sliced bread, and completely ignore the rest of the data.
04-03-2013 09:51 AM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by s14sh3r View Post
Yep. This is why double blind studies work so well. People also forget about statistical error. There are so many variables in driving a vehicle that it's pretty much impossible to create identical situations between tests. Anything less than statistical testing of a large group over a period of time would be considered anecdotal.
Finally someone understands statistics! The jeep and dyno are pretty repeatable, but . Here are back to back pulls with the stock setup.

The 3SD (99%) value is 2.79hp, so the average HP for these pulls (140.9hp) can vary between 138.1 and 143.7 hp.
04-03-2013 09:49 AM
Neil F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atthehop View Post
You have a GPS that monitors fuel economy? How does it know how much fuel is in the tank.
I am sure he is saying GPS verified "miles driven" not, GPS calculated MPG
04-03-2013 09:16 AM
s14sh3r
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Exactly. It is also human nature to try to produce the results, often subconciously, that you expect or desire. Some will install some product that claims better mpg... so after they install it, they drive the vehicle in such a way that often they will see better mpg & then scream to the world how it improved their mpg. But without realizing it overtly, they had been driving differently, sometimes subconciously, to produce those results. Driving a little slower, accelerating a little more easily, on a highway trip instead of around town, etc.
Yep. This is why double blind studies work so well. People also forget about statistical error. There are so many variables in driving a vehicle that it's pretty much impossible to create identical situations between tests. Anything less than statistical testing of a large group over a period of time would be considered anecdotal.
04-03-2013 09:10 AM
Jerry Bransford
Quote:
Originally Posted by s14sh3r View Post
The mileage test also needs to be long term to get an average. I think that would be more accurate than driving 200 miles and comparing.

Needs more science!
Exactly. It is also human nature to try to produce the results, often subconciously, that you expect or desire. Some will install some product that claims better mpg... so after they install it, they drive the vehicle in such a way that often they will see better mpg & then scream to the world how it improved their mpg. But without realizing it overtly, they had been driving differently, sometimes subconciously, to produce those results. Driving a little slower, accelerating a little more easily, on a highway trip instead of around town, etc.
04-03-2013 09:05 AM
s14sh3r
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueskiesbill View Post
Just some food for thought, and please excuse my ignorance in explaining especially when it comes to terminology. The guy that does all my aftermarket work on my jeep has been a mechanic since he was a little boy working on tractors with his dad for the farm and his dads hot rods. This guy has multiple 'personal' non business garages. I asked him about power and mpg gains with an intake on a I-6 TJ. He said hell yes! At the time I took it as gold, but then after reading all these wonderful threads online I began to question. So naturally I went to him and said 'I read blah blah blah, no power/mpg gains, blah blah' on the Internet. He gave me one of those 'Dam kids reading an believing everything they read on the Internet looks. So he then took my jeep while saying, 'your dumb friends on the Internet don't know what they are talking about'. He took my jeep (stock intake) and put it on his little testing machine with the shiny rollers that the wheels spin on with all the hookups to show power, etc. (remember in the beginning when I said excuse my ignorance).

He then took out my stock intake and hooked up his CAI from his jeep. He then did the same test on those roller things. And guess what not a dam change! He did 3 tests and 2 times it went slightly higher, and the other not so much. So I then said,'aha my Internet buddies were right!' He once again gave me that u and Ur friends are stupid look. He then plugged my jeep into his little computer and as he said 'altered some things in the electrical system or something'. Now back to the jeep and spinning the wheels on the rollers an the gains were amazing! I can not answer to mpg gains but I can answer to the horsepower chart that he created after all was said and done. So basically the moral of this story as my jeep fix it guy said (who does all my work for free and has no ties to any companies, is 40 something years old and has been working on vehicles probably before much of you were born on here) is that most of the guys on your Internet site are not doing the most important part which is 'telling' the engine that a CAI is there. So I will be putting one on, and those of you that are interested in getting one just make sure you have someone that knows what they are doing and will do the extra part which makes it all work.

~not interested in getting in any kind of an argument or discussion on this, as it is not my field of experience. If he was on the Internet, then I would transfer you to him. I also asked him about sucking fine particles in the block, and yup you guessed it, same look.
That's not a very scientific test. I'd like to see the results with "'altered some things in the electrical system or something" and the stock intake and filter. The test results that get posted here pretty often have a flaw, in my opinion. At some point during the testing ,the tire pressure was adjusted. To me, that means any previous runs cannot be compared with subsequent ones because the testing parameters changed. I also feel that testing a stock intake, then swapping it for a CAI and immediately retesting is flawed. The PCM has already adapted to the stock configuration. It should be reset and driven for several days to adapt to the CAI and then tested to get a proper comparison. As far as MPG claims, most of the same applies. Nothing else needs to be changed until the testing is complete. The mileage test also needs to be long term to get an average. I think that would be more accurate than driving 200 miles and comparing.

Needs more science!
04-03-2013 08:58 AM
Atthehop
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltdanyj View Post
I installed a Spectre CAI a week ago.. This is the kit that requires drilling a 3" hole in the firewall so the intake sources it's air from the cowl... I don't know about horsepower additions, but my jeep has consistently returned a GPS verified 13.2-13.7 mpg over the last 6 months... This tank is not done yet, and it's looking like I'll be well into the 14's... I'll report back in a couple months with any concrete changes in gas mileage...
You have a GPS that monitors fuel economy? How does it know how much fuel is in the tank.
04-03-2013 08:53 AM
Neil F. X2 on the above!

(Odds are to "enjoy the new found HP" you are driving more lead footed which negates any MPG gains real fast. Plus do the math. Figure out how many miles it will take a 1 MPG gain/gas savings cost to recoup your $150-250 CAI. It takes a hell of a long time)
04-03-2013 08:46 AM
Jerry Bransford The EPA & the Feds are creating continuous immense pressure on automobile manufacturers to produce ever better fuel economy for their fleets of vehicles they manufacture via the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards. In the early days of pushing for better mpg, it wasn't that hard to tweak engines to produce better fuel economy. But today, it is in fact so hard to improve the CAFE (mpg averages) that automotive manufacturers are creating tiny fuel economy econo-box 40+ mpg cars to offset the poorer mpg ratings of their more popular vehicles they have tweaked as much mpg out of as they could. If CAI could actually help improve the mpg at that end of their automotive lines, the manufacturers would be installing CAI out of sheer desperation.

But now, it's now a major victory after much work to produce even 1 mpg better mpg. If the manufacturers could produce noticeably better mpg with a simple CAI as a few here claim, Detroit, Japan, Korea, Europe, etc. would all be doing it already. With the pressure they're facing by the Obama-types & EPA, they'd welcome anything as easy as a CAI to produce noticeably better MPG.

For those who insist they're seeing better mpg after a simple CAI installation, you're only deceiving yourself... the Placebo Effect hard at work in other words.
04-03-2013 08:38 AM
SpoiledRotten I find that mine has more HP, more pickup, and greater handling capibilities when the gas tank is below half rather than full. It didn't cost the price of a CAI, either. I think it might be the lighter weight that makes the difference. Yeah, 80# lighter makes up for the high dollar mod. Now, when I change out my 3.73 gears with the 4.56 gears either this week or next, I'll probably get even more seat of the pants HP gains.
To be honest though, before I read a lot and watched a number of vids on the CAI, I had thought about getting one. Haven't had that desire in over a couple of years now. To those that have installed one, glad you, at least, think you are seeing a difference in yours. Make one feel better about the money they spent.
04-03-2013 12:56 AM
Rob and TJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
You are representative of JP's perfect demographic. Congratulations.

You should also spend some time around a dyno and watch some runs.

None of the gains I've ever seen claimed fall outside the statistical error of a dyno.
I guess you missed my post about my own personal gains on my own tests too? No I cannot show u hp gains. but mpg I can. But that's okay, im done debating in this thread. Apparently, if you don't follow the norm on WF...you get demonized. BTW I didn't purchase anything. Ive spent more than plenty of time around a dyno, and if you have; you know that dynos are extremely accurate. Its the operator you have to worry about.
04-02-2013 04:40 PM
geiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Furthermore, I have passed on multiple jeeps BECAUSE the PO had one installed.
Typically I'm the same. But I actually bought a JK recently as a second vehicle for my wife, and it actually has one on it. The good thing is that being a JK, anyone who modifies one seems to have done all of the stupid small modifications like CAI, so there are plenty of stock air boxes out there for free. I've got one sitting in the garage waiting to be installed.

Out of everyone I've seen install CAIs, I rarely see anyone proclaim that they have seen any true gains.
04-02-2013 09:34 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob and TJ View Post
Yes I call it independent. Regardless of what they get paid from sponsors, the tests show gains. Call it bias alllll you want, but I myself had gains from k&n and s&b over the stock system. Including mpg gain. If all the CAI makers claims are false, then why has nobody filed a false advertisement lawsuit against them?
In any sense..I need every ounce of power I can get from my jeep. Not only do I wheel with it, I tow my Polaris rzr 800 with a 700 pound trailer under it. And no doubt the intake helps very little. But little is better than nothing.
You are representative of JP's perfect demographic. Congratulations.

You should also spend some time around a dyno and watch some runs.

None of the gains I've ever seen claimed fall outside the statistical error of a dyno.
04-02-2013 07:09 AM
Patrick H
Quote:
not interested in getting in any kind of an argument or discussion on this, as it is not my field of experience. If he was on the Internet, then I would transfer you to him.
Yeah, you probably shouldn't have posted this then.
Since you made this statement however, I will refrain..
04-02-2013 07:08 AM
WaterDR Also, IF you did spend 200 bucks on one, then take it to a dyno and have a tuner tune it with a chip, you are looking at another 500 bucks. If you are lucky you MIGHT see 5 HP. And I would be willing to bet the tuner would have found the same 5 HP with or without the CIA.

The only way to test this would be to take a properly tuned stock jeep, dyno it, then add a CIA and retune.

THEN, stick the thing on the road and measure 1/8 mile performance before and after

I have never seen such test.
04-02-2013 07:01 AM
WaterDR Anyone who claims they can feel a gain with a CAI on a stock jeep is either lying, nuts, or it's due to the fact that your wallet is lighter.

They are a complete waste of money.

Furthermore, I have passed on multiple jeeps BECAUSE the PO had one installed.

CIAs are affective on some applications, just not on a wrangler.
04-02-2013 02:12 AM
InvisiblePants
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atthehop View Post
But if these people stop buying CAI's my stock in fraud will go down and may need to go back to full time employment.
You need to diversify your stock portfolio between fraud, BS, Poppycock and placebo affect. This will keep you from punching that time clock to death....


And blueski, could you find out what settings he changed in the ecu to get this increase in hp. Im sure others would love to know.
04-02-2013 12:31 AM
Rob and TJ Blueskiesbill
Get your mechanic on wrangler forum!! his experience could be quite the valuable here on the forums!!
04-01-2013 11:40 PM
Zevman The only thing I have today is 40 something isn't old, rifle.
04-01-2013 11:24 PM
blueskiesbill Just some food for thought, and please excuse my ignorance in explaining especially when it comes to terminology. The guy that does all my aftermarket work on my jeep has been a mechanic since he was a little boy working on tractors with his dad for the farm and his dads hot rods. This guy has multiple 'personal' non business garages. I asked him about power and mpg gains with an intake on a I-6 TJ. He said hell yes! At the time I took it as gold, but then after reading all these wonderful threads online I began to question. So naturally I went to him and said 'I read blah blah blah, no power/mpg gains, blah blah' on the Internet. He gave me one of those 'Dam kids reading an believing everything they read on the Internet looks. So he then took my jeep while saying, 'your dumb friends on the Internet don't know what they are talking about'. He took my jeep (stock intake) and put it on his little testing machine with the shiny rollers that the wheels spin on with all the hookups to show power, etc. (remember in the beginning when I said excuse my ignorance).

He then took out my stock intake and hooked up his CAI from his jeep. He then did the same test on those roller things. And guess what not a dam change! He did 3 tests and 2 times it went slightly higher, and the other not so much. So I then said,'aha my Internet buddies were right!' He once again gave me that u and Ur friends are stupid look. He then plugged my jeep into his little computer and as he said 'altered some things in the electrical system or something'. Now back to the jeep and spinning the wheels on the rollers an the gains were amazing! I can not answer to mpg gains but I can answer to the horsepower chart that he created after all was said and done. So basically the moral of this story as my jeep fix it guy said (who does all my work for free and has no ties to any companies, is 40 something years old and has been working on vehicles probably before much of you were born on here) is that most of the guys on your Internet site are not doing the most important part which is 'telling' the engine that a CAI is there. So I will be putting one on, and those of you that are interested in getting one just make sure you have someone that knows what they are doing and will do the extra part which makes it all work.

~not interested in getting in any kind of an argument or discussion on this, as it is not my field of experience. If he was on the Internet, then I would transfer you to him. I also asked him about sucking fine particles in the block, and yup you guessed it, same look.
04-01-2013 11:18 PM
Rob and TJ Yes I call it independent. Regardless of what they get paid from sponsors, the tests show gains. Call it bias alllll you want, but I myself had gains from k&n and s&b over the stock system. Including mpg gain. If all the CAI makers claims are false, then why has nobody filed a false advertisement lawsuit against them?
In any sense..I need every ounce of power I can get from my jeep. Not only do I wheel with it, I tow my Polaris rzr 800 with a 700 pound trailer under it. And no doubt the intake helps very little. But little is better than nothing.
04-01-2013 10:21 PM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob and TJ View Post
Jeep TJ Wrangler - Intake Shootout - Jp Magazine

FACT. CAI's were tested by an independent source and ALLLLL OF THEM showed gains over stock. So for those of you that keep saying they don't do jack...perhaps you could actually do some independent research to prove what you are saying. Anything said otherwise is hearsay.
You call JP magazine testing its sponsors CAIs "independent"? My testing was 100% independent. I had nothing to prove to anyone, I don't sell any jeep vendor parts, have nothing to gain either way the test goes, and I did multiple pulls to get statistically significant data. I'd have loved it if there were gains, especially for the $ I spent on the intake. I'd bet big that JP did the baseline test on a heat soaked jeep and then it cooled nicely between CAIs. That is why all the CAIs made roughly the same hp. JP magazine has published some of the most laughable crap I have ever read. I cancelled my subscription because they are too full of BS.
04-01-2013 09:43 PM
Johnnybonkel [QUOTE="pastorscott;3300350"]So
we all know that Cold air intakes dont work. Every link every forum. Its always the same. NO MPG gain- NO POWER GAINS... just noise..
So why do they still sell them...?? Im just at a loss.
They do nothing yet they have all these adds of power and MPG.. people buy them- then take them off and sell them on Ebay.. but why oh why arent they being sued ?? Why do so many guys on this forum have them ?
Lets get a fire started and burn them...Just my little rant

[/QUOTE
you right...dont know...
04-01-2013 09:20 PM
barkern143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob and TJ View Post
Jeep TJ Wrangler - Intake Shootout - Jp Magazine

FACT. CAI's were tested by an independent source and ALLLLL OF THEM showed gains over stock. So for those of you that keep saying they don't do jack...perhaps you could actually do some independent research to prove what you are saying. Anything said otherwise is hearsay.
No I'd agree, they all they improve them... To a sense... They work a little bit but really not good enough for me to justify spending the few hundred dollars on them, ya know what I mean?
04-01-2013 09:14 PM
Rob and TJ Jeep TJ Wrangler - Intake Shootout - Jp Magazine

FACT. CAI's were tested by an independent source and ALLLLL OF THEM showed gains over stock. So for those of you that keep saying they don't do jack...perhaps you could actually do some independent research to prove what you are saying. Anything said otherwise is hearsay.
04-01-2013 09:15 AM
barkern143 As for wranglers they obviously don't do jack, and that's a fact, but.... For certain vehicles they do, such as diesels or performance vehicles, for instance on my 05 roush I have a k&n CAI and it works wonders, my mpg went up by 3 and I gained about 15 hp on the dyno, that's enough reason for me to want one, so I believe it must have something to do with them having problems on smaller engines or something of the sorts, but for high powered performance engines, and diesels, they work.
03-31-2013 10:53 PM
jgorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhSixTJ View Post
but the fact if the matter is there is STILL some sort of gain from using a CAI whether its .5 horsepower or more and that was my point. I
No there are no gains that are statistically significant, that is my point. The biggest gain of the entire experiment with 18 dyno pulls was from pumping up the tires.
03-31-2013 10:20 PM
2004Columbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
No, you were not reading, only looking at the dyno chart. Rush off and buy one.
No reason to be a douche bud. I asked a question and instead of an answer I get a smart ass comment. Thanks for the help. Boy am I glad I come here.
03-31-2013 11:21 AM
OhSixTJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post

I cannot explain this with any more detail. Take some classes on reading comprehension and statistics and then you might understand that thread. I 'documented' that graph to show how easy it is for manufacturers to make dyno sheets that show decent gains. The mfg of the intake I tested had a graph like that.
Haha ok. Feel better now? I guess someones boyfriend didn't give them a kiss good morning. My reading comprehension is good where it's at and i don't see how a class on statistics would teach me that companies use the best and worst data to show "gains", but if thats what YOU need to comprehend something like that then ill pay for that class for you I understand what you're trying to show, but the fact if the matter is there is STILL some sort of gain from using a CAI whether its .5 horsepower or more and that was my point. I also asked, in case you couldn't understand, if we (not me and you, other people) were in agreement that despite the "gains" you can get, the dirt that is allowed to flow by is more harmful and that's why it's not good to run one. And I wasn't asking you to explain anything. Another reading comprehension failure on your part. Hmmmmm.....
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