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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-23-2009 08:33 PM
2much
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
^ it is true. No one can wait to start loading their crap software. The most important thing is that everyone is exposed to “other” or an alternate view. That is the best way to fight fundamentalism everywhere.
Who says fundamentalism is always bad?
(I had a rant typed out, but my comp gliched.)
04-23-2009 04:42 PM
jpdocdave
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevens243 View Post
I don't think it matters whether its community college, university or even the high schools.

If anyone wants the opposite problems, go to a catholic university or better yet, try BYU (as an example).

Children are born to be "indocrinated". The parents and family do it to them from birth. Once they are at an age to make decisions on their own, it's up to them to parse the information (especially opinions, most especially opinions on things that affect their lives and effect others lives) and (or to assist in) decide for themselves.

The "bad" things that teachers give children, AND adults should always be offset by what they've learned from others and in their own experience. The "good" part of what is being taught (whether you agree with it or not) is to help give some other outlook into what the world looks like.

very true, unfortanatly these days theres an obseen amount of bad being put on children and young adults that is far outweighing any good they've been given.

and what the heck was that? i started chanting involuntarily
04-23-2009 04:09 PM
tiny terror If you close your eyes during the intro it almost takes you back to playing Vanguard at the arcade.
04-23-2009 04:08 PM
4point BE HEALED!!!!!!!! (smack on the fore head) YOU ARE NOW TAX FREE BROTHER!!! (minister falls to knees crying) I AM! I AM!
04-23-2009 04:04 PM
jupiterboy It’s just God saving you money on your taxes, relax.
04-23-2009 04:03 PM
stevens243 What I really love is the post introduction mission statement about how the IRS is screwing (ok, auditing) some non-profit "churches" and how they want to "help".
04-23-2009 04:00 PM
4point Um WOW

I think I'm having a seizure............
04-23-2009 04:00 PM
stevens243
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
^ sry to say, but you said it—community college.

Totally off topic, but I can’t stop laughing…

:: International Congress of Churches & Ministers ::
I just had a seizure! It must be the lawd speaking to be over the intertubes!
04-23-2009 03:59 PM
ccain
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
Holy CRAP!
Wow, that's some intro!

Now we know where the code writers from World of Warcraft went after they got laid off!
04-23-2009 03:59 PM
jupiterboy ^ it is true. No one can wait to start loading their crap software. The most important thing is that everyone is exposed to “other” or an alternate view. That is the best way to fight fundamentalism everywhere.
04-23-2009 03:56 PM
stevens243 I don't think it matters whether its community college, university or even the high schools.

If anyone wants the opposite problems, go to a catholic university or better yet, try BYU (as an example).

Children are born to be "indocrinated". The parents and family do it to them from birth. Once they are at an age to make decisions on their own, it's up to them to parse the information (especially opinions, most especially opinions on things that affect their lives and effect others lives) and (or to assist in) decide for themselves.

The "bad" things that teachers give children, AND adults should always be offset by what they've learned from others and in their own experience. The "good" part of what is being taught (whether you agree with it or not) is to help give some other outlook into what the world looks like.
04-23-2009 03:55 PM
jupiterboy Anointed in code.
04-23-2009 03:46 PM
tiny terror
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
Totally off topic, but I can’t stop laughing…

:: International Congress of Churches & Ministers ::
Holy CRAP!
04-23-2009 03:34 PM
jupiterboy ^ sry to say, but you said it—community college.

Totally off topic, but I can’t stop laughing…

http://www.iccm-1.org/
04-23-2009 03:30 PM
jpdocdave still doesn't change the fact that the large majority of news reporting agencies, and all of hollywood is liberal, and even public schools. and sadly a majority of americans get their "facts" soully from these sources.

not to start another discussion, but my wife is furthering her education at our local comunity college. it is unbelievable what the college professors are doing in the classroom. liberal agendas that have absolutey nothing to do with the coarse subject are where 90% of the class time is spent. couple examples: gay marriage, homosexuality, obama/bush=bash bush praise obama, prostitution explicit discussions on sex and sexuality. and most of the students are 18-21 yr old kids, that have had no thoughts of their own, and are being impressioned and indoctrinated by it.
04-23-2009 03:25 PM
jupiterboy Who is Rupert Murdoch?

Typically, journalists are trained to get two sides of a story. In certain political climates telling any side other than a specifically biased side that is manufactured by government and business interests is considered liberal. My policy is to know both sides in hopes of finding a third, fourth and fifth opinion.

Listen to Alex Jones bash Obama for his gun control agenda.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f6/if-y...low-29400.html

What is that? Is he a liberal or a conservative? If you find someone that does not specifically follow a party line and have their speaking points set to the democratic or republican line of the day you probably have someone worth listening to, even if you don't like it or believe it.
04-23-2009 02:47 PM
jpdocdave
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
. But then most news gathering organizations are owned by the same conservative-leaning media mogul.

what???

evidantly you aren't spending hours sifting through the overwhelming media that is exactly the opposite of what you just stated.
04-23-2009 02:23 PM
Odhinn
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
It is true, but it also applies to us as well. That is why international law and laws like Habeas Corpus are so interesting—they represent an effort of disparate cultures to come together in acceptance of shared values. The nature/nurture question may never be understood in a way that is definitive, but there is some chance we can deconstruct religion enough on a global scale to realize we are simply a species on a rock in space and that there may be some value in attempting to not end the experiment prematurely by our own hand.

It is not lost on me that many religious universities in our own country do not teach anthropology specifically because they do not want students to understand that morality is cultural rather than a static law handed down from above. Even with an understanding of cultural and moral relativism there remain concepts and values that are common—value of life is one of them even if the only lives that count are the lives of your own tribe.

(No offense to the believers.)
I'm a little late but here goes. To teach people basic things in school is one thing, but it takes an "act of god" to change the ideas that are handed down through generations. Especially those based on Hate and religion. Also it doesn't help that the majority of people today have the mind set "I'm going to get you before you get me."

Torture has been part of the world from the beginning of time. Laws are good but many people still believe "it isn't illegal until you get caught." Laws only affect law abiding people. Terrorists have the mindset that the end justifies the means. That means that they will torture anyone, blow up your house, kill your family, and cut your head off if it helped their cause.

Giving these terrorists a legal voice in a civilian court is a joke. Send them to a military tribunal and judge then by their own laws. That's more then they are given in their own countries.

We have already given the majority of our jobs, money, and land to foreign countries. We better wake up before we give the rest away in the name of PC and "lets not hurt the feelings of the people trying to kills us" mentality.

If my grammar and spelling is bad, I am sorry. A lot to do and in a hurry.
04-23-2009 01:03 PM
jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Interesting, wonder why they would be lying to themselves, or did somebody fudge the dates?
Could be they have fallen into their own pit of disinformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
I'm not sure where I come down on water boarding, or torture of any type for that matter. I was all for it till Amy pointed out that if we allow it for others what's to stop them from using it on Americans?
I still can't say I'm against it because if there was a threat to my family and I had hold of a person that I believed could provide useful information that would save them I would do whatever it took to get that info.
I also look to history and see no examples of any enemy treating our people with anywhere near the care we give theirs.
Well this is one big rub for me about the “Bush Administration”—the attempt to find legal precedent and legitimize activities that have always been black bag jobs. If activities have to be financed off the books and kept secret then there is a built in prohibition, and in the future it will remain difficult and dangerous to break the law or operate in grey areas. To me this is OK. That way we have not officially done anything and we can claim the moral high ground whether we deserve it or not. When all this crap gets put on the books you will have American soldiers being waterboarded and worse simply because we have broadcast the how-to manual and gone through the steps to make it legit.

Historically we have had our soldiers released after a conflict and in some cases they were fed and given minimal care, even though the examples of abuse are also many. Pre-Geneva I suspect the take no prisoners style of war was much more common, along with rape to contaminate the gene pool and a hundred other proud human strategies of domination.
04-23-2009 12:25 PM
skeeter Interesting, wonder why they would be lying to themselves, or did somebody fudge the dates?.

I'm not sure where I come down on water boarding, or torture of any type for that matter. I was all for it till Amy pointed out that if we allow it for others what's to stop them from using it on Americans?
I still can't say I'm against it because if there was a threat to my family and I had hold of a person that I believed could provide useful information that would save them I would do whatever it took to get that info.
I also look to history and see no examples of any enemy treating our people with anywhere near the care we give theirs.
04-23-2009 12:17 PM
tiny terror
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
Well from a philosophical standpoint objectivity and truth are slippery, but when you have competing news organizations with competing reporters who are watching events and collaborating with different contacts you get a range of impressions.

When everyone rips of the same AP wire, that has already been washed by our intelligence organizations, you get something completely different. Bush took office as much of this wash out was taking place, and blatant conflicts of interest were being cemented by corporate interests owning news organizations.
You are correct. When we all drink from the same poisoned well, our fates are the same. It's a shame really. Being a legit journalist used to mean something. But now, they out and out lie for ratings, creating stories from thin air... and simple burn pits are made into huge Marine battles with casualties being evac-d by chopper.
04-23-2009 12:00 PM
jupiterboy Check the dates:

Fact Sheet: Keeping America Safe From Attack

Quote:
In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles.
Press Briefing on the West Coast Terrorist Plot by Frances Fragos Townsend, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism

Quote:
The cell leader was arrested in February of 2002, and as we begin -- at that point, the other members of the cell believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward. You'll recall that KSM was then arrested in April of 2003 -- or was it March -- I'm sorry, March of 2003.
So it appears that the gave information about a plot that had been canceled because it had previously been discovered by other means.

Now I am not making a case against waterboarding. But to say that waterboarding prevented this specific incident does not appear to be correct.
04-23-2009 11:36 AM
skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
I’m not a moralist. One very big issue is that in situations where open ended torture has been used the information obtained has been largely false. I would like to see some separation between a populist desire to punish people who we trust are guilty because we have been told there is reason to suspect, and real evidence regarding obtaining credible information. It appears that the ability of the system to absorb, prioritize and act on the incoming information we have is a much larger issue than splitting hairs over waterboarding, which is not the lighting rod buzz word that evokes an opinion from nearly everyone.

CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Quote:
CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief


Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles.
(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)

This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.

“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”


A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.
Information gained solely from interrogations may be unreliable but other methods may then be employed to verify that information.
04-23-2009 09:53 AM
jupiterboy Well from a philosophical standpoint objectivity and truth are slippery, but when you have competing news organizations with competing reporters who are watching events and collaborating with different contacts you get a range of impressions.

When everyone rips of the same AP wire, that has already been washed by our intelligence organizations, you get something completely different. Bush took office as much of this wash out was taking place, and blatant conflicts of interest were being cemented by corporate interests owning news organizations.
04-23-2009 09:45 AM
tiny terror Feet on the ground as you say never lead to truth in journalism. It lead to which angle can I use to create a story. Both figuratively and literally. (In a hurry, gotta motor)
04-23-2009 09:39 AM
jupiterboy Right, but there is also the timing of the trend of ending foreign correspondents. Newspapers no longer can finance real investigative journalism and can’t support feet on the ground on location. This means they all drink from the same AP well. Combine that with a really scary terrorist attack and you have a nearly complete abdication of any responsibility to report critically on what was going on. Many news rooms were completely compliant with requests to not report information that they had, more so, I believe, than at any other moment in history. But then most news gathering organizations are owned by the same conservative-leaning media mogul.
04-23-2009 09:32 AM
tiny terror I don't believe the media is easy on anyone who manages to end up in it's clutches.
04-23-2009 09:29 AM
jupiterboy And I suspect history will show they were extremely easy on Bush.
04-23-2009 09:27 AM
tiny terror
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdocdave View Post
how is this the case for obama's white house, but the media preached gospel truth when bush was president?

Are you adding words to my posts, Dave? The media has NEVER preached the truth. Back in the day, they hid details, didn't tell what they new. Now, they not only spill every little thing they can find, but they twist it up and add untruths.

I think every President has dealt with this, including President Bush.
04-23-2009 07:11 AM
jpdocdave
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
As for President Obama focusing on the wrong things. Media reports don't reflect what's going on in the White House. They are merely whispers of rumors of what's going on. A fly on the wall knows more than us.
how is this the case for obama's white house, but the media preached gospel truth when bush was president?
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