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Topic Review (Newest First)
Today 06:41 PM
Turbostixxx More coming...
Today 06:40 PM
Turbostixxx Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it’s only the degree of loss that’s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There’s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and ‘surprise’ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.
Today 06:37 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
proper training is key. However that's not what we are discussing here. We are discussing how to carry.
I believe if you dont have some kind of training. Carrying open can be detrimental to your health. Just saying. Love you tom.
Today 06:35 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Like I said I agree with most of what you say. But firing a weopon is more than pulling a trigger. Proper backdrop so civilians wont be hurt and. Shot placement. All I am saying is proper training is the key.
proper training is key. However that's not what we are discussing here. We are discussing how to carry.
Today 06:33 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
I openly carry. I have schooled, I train often. I cross draw, I shoot with both hands then one hand at a time including my weak hand. I practice draws dry fires at home in a chair, in case I am in my car and need to pull. If pulling gets you killed, I can believe it. However, carrying it on my side and pulling t are 2 different things. You can't touch it unless you are ready to draw and fire and know you are faster than him.

However, I ask again, show 3 times that open carrying got someone killed. The reason he was targeted was because his weapon was visible.
Like I said I agree with most of what you say. But firing a weopon is more than pulling a trigger. Proper backdrop so civilians wont be hurt and. Shot placement. All I am saying is proper training is the key.
Today 06:29 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
I agree with you somewhat tom. But some times pulling a weopon will get get you killed if you don't know how to use it. Famous words from g Gordon liddy . If you are not trained in the use of a weopon. File the front site off. So it is easier to pull out of your ass. Lol.
I openly carry. I have schooled, I train often. I cross draw, I shoot with both hands then one hand at a time including my weak hand. I practice draws dry fires at home in a chair, in case I am in my car and need to pull. If pulling gets you killed, I can believe it. However, carrying it on my side and pulling t are 2 different things. You can't touch it unless you are ready to draw and fire and know you are faster than him.

However, I ask again, show 3 times that open carrying got someone killed. The reason he was targeted was because his weapon was visible.
Today 06:24 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
well obviously schooling yes, but he is talking about a NRA certified instructor says you should conceal not open.

If it's better to conceal than open carry. If it is sometimes better to be known as not armed than armed. Find me 3, just 3 crimes, where the open carrier was targeted, first or at all, because he was armed. Just 3.
I agree with you somewhat tom. But some times pulling a weopon will get get you killed if you don't know how to use it. Famous words from g Gordon liddy . If you are not trained in the use of a weopon. File the front site off. So it is easier to pull out of your ass. Lol.
Today 06:22 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Like I said before. It depends on the environment your in. Some states are more tolerable than others. I would rather not deal with any problems if I don't have to. My time is too valuable. Then again I have been combat trained. And not worried about drawing a weopon and shot placement. I believe proper training is the key to self defence.
proper training includes what you are comfortable with. In the winter I conceal, summer I do not.
Today 06:20 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
no need to explain. And I have never once been asked to leave somewhere or had the police called when open carrying. I've carried into places with police standing there and eating. It's not illegal. Therefore I don't have to nor do I get stopped. If they call the police, the police go to them first, and ask what's the problem, when it's clear that I am just legally carrying a weapon, he is to let them know I am in my legal right. I am also in my legal right to not talk with the officer IF he does come and speak to me. What does he have to check? I can open carry without permit. He wants to check my ID to make sure I am legally carrying the weapon? Well #1 he won't think in carrying illegally. How many criminals walk around with a gun strapped to their side? #2 unless I am being detained, I do not have to communicate nor cooperate with the officer. That is my legal right. However 99.9% of the time it will never get to that level.

Now, say that same liberal sees the outline of your gun under your shirt. The officer is within his legal bounds to ask for your concealed weapons permit. So now I do have to waste my time dealing with that.
Like I said before. It depends on the environment your in. Some states are more tolerable than others. I would rather not deal with any problems if I don't have to. My time is too valuable. Then again I have been combat trained. And not worried about drawing a weopon and shot placement. I believe proper training is the key to self defence.
Today 06:15 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post
and this point I absolutely agree with: I am NOT going to carry at all until I'm properly schooled by a certified instructor. Until then, I'm more of a danger than anything else.
well obviously schooling yes, but he is talking about a NRA certified instructor says you should conceal not open.

If it's better to conceal than open carry. If it is sometimes better to be known as not armed than armed. Find me 3, just 3 crimes, where the open carrier was targeted, first or at all, because he was armed. Just 3.
Today 06:13 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post
this is my concern as well and this is where my questions come from. carrying concealed would bring me less hassle, but requires a permit (not a big deal), harder to draw from, and, in my case, to successfully carry concealed, I'd have to carry around a little pea shooter that is harder to aim (I'm not a very big guy and my style of clothing isn't very CCW friendly...I mean I could buy new clothes, but that's part of the drawback). carrying open would be more comfortable and a more natural draw, but would, like you're saying james, bring me some unwanted attention. I also don't want to be confused for something that I'm not, and I don't want people under the impression that I'm trying to be a badass or whatever carrying open. There's still a lot of social stigma about it. Tom, do you feel like you're ostracized walking around with that on your hip?
no, I have never had a comment made, never had the police called, never had someone running in fear. Ever.
Today 06:12 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Not too worried about the perp. Its the liberals that call the police when they see a weapon in the open. The police have to respond when they call. Just a waste of my time to explain the rights I have. Just seems easier to me.
no need to explain. And I have never once been asked to leave somewhere or had the police called when open carrying. I've carried into places with police standing there and eating. It's not illegal. Therefore I don't have to nor do I get stopped. If they call the police, the police go to them first, and ask what's the problem, when it's clear that I am just legally carrying a weapon, he is to let them know I am in my legal right. I am also in my legal right to not talk with the officer IF he does come and speak to me. What does he have to check? I can open carry without permit. He wants to check my ID to make sure I am legally carrying the weapon? Well #1 he won't think in carrying illegally. How many criminals walk around with a gun strapped to their side? #2 unless I am being detained, I do not have to communicate nor cooperate with the officer. That is my legal right. However 99.9% of the time it will never get to that level.

Now, say that same liberal sees the outline of your gun under your shirt. The officer is within his legal bounds to ask for your concealed weapons permit. So now I do have to waste my time dealing with that.
Today 06:12 PM
JKralph
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Tom. I agree with 90% of the things you believe . But disagree with this one. I believe he should go with a nra certified instructor. Imo sometimes it is better not to be known as armed.
and this point I absolutely agree with: I am NOT going to carry at all until I'm properly schooled by a certified instructor. Until then, I'm more of a danger than anything else.
Today 06:11 PM
JKralph
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Its the liberals that call the police when they see a weapon in the open...
this is my concern as well and this is where my questions come from.

carrying concealed would bring me less hassle, but requires a permit (not a big deal), harder to draw from, and, in my case, to successfully carry concealed, I'd have to carry around a little pea shooter that is harder to aim (I'm not a very big guy and my style of clothing isn't very CCW friendly...I mean I could buy new clothes, but that's part of the drawback).

carrying open would be more comfortable and a more natural draw, but would, like you're saying james, bring me some unwanted attention. I also don't want to be confused for something that I'm not, and I don't want people under the impression that I'm trying to be a badass or whatever carrying open. There's still a lot of social stigma about it.

Tom, do you feel like you're ostracized walking around with that on your hip?
Today 06:10 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
no it won't, at all.
Tom. I agree with 90% of the things you believe . But disagree with this one. I believe he should go with a nra certified instructor. Imo sometimes it is better not to be known as armed.
Today 05:56 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
You have the right to carry however you want. All depends on the environment. Sometimes carrying open will cause unessesarry attention. But then again. Just my opinion.
no it won't, at all.
Today 05:43 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
negative. 9 times out of 10, a perp won't start when he sees someone carrying. His mindset has to go to "am I ready to murder" when he just came in to rob.
Not too worried about the perp. Its the liberals that call the police when they see a weapon in the open. The police have to respond when they call. Just a waste of my time to explain the rights I have. Just seems easier to me.
Today 05:14 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Imo. You should carry concealed. A Perp shouldn't know you have a weapon. Until they have holes in them. Just saying. everyone
negative. 9 times out of 10, a perp won't start when he sees someone carrying. His mindset has to go to "am I ready to murder" when he just came in to rob.
Today 05:13 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fun sized View Post
hey James
Hey brian

Hey tom
Today 05:12 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post

Morning

don't get me wrong, I see the arguments for both sides, most definitely, I just don't know a lot of people that carry open so I don't have a lot of people to ask about it
You have the right to carry however you want. All depends on the environment. Sometimes carrying open will cause unessesarry attention. But then again. Just my opinion.
Today 05:11 PM
Fun sized
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Imo. You should carry concealed. A Perp shouldn't know you have a weapon. Until they have holes in them. Just saying. everyone
hey James
Today 05:07 PM
JKralph
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 lj View Post
Imo. You should carry concealed. A Perp shouldn't know you have a weapon. Until they have holes in them. Just saying.

everyone
Morning

don't get me wrong, I see the arguments for both sides, most definitely, I just don't know a lot of people that carry open so I don't have a lot of people to ask about it
Today 05:07 PM
Fun sized
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post
plan to, I can waste an entire day out there and not even realize it eh, "waste" isn't the right word, but you know what I mean
a day doing something you love is never wasted
Today 05:06 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post
finally! you replacing a pair to adjust caster or pinion? what kind of joints are at the end of those puppies? cool, thank you, I have a bunch of questions for someone that actively open carries
replacing the front set. 1 bad bushing made me decide to buy the set. Ride comfort and pinion angle setting
Today 05:05 PM
2004 lj
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post

finally! you replacing a pair to adjust caster or pinion? what kind of joints are at the end of those puppies?

cool, thank you, I have a bunch of questions for someone that actively open carries
Imo. You should carry concealed. A Perp shouldn't know you have a weapon. Until they have holes in them. Just saying.

everyone
Today 04:52 PM
JKralph
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
im waiting in my adjustables still but tracking says tomorrow! YIPEE!!
finally! you replacing a pair to adjust caster or pinion? what kind of joints are at the end of those puppies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbostixxx View Post
I can talk to you about this anytime
cool, thank you, I have a bunch of questions for someone that actively open carries
Today 04:37 PM
JKralph
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fun sized View Post
you must be stoked. Going shooting this weekend?
plan to, I can waste an entire day out there and not even realize it

eh, "waste" isn't the right word, but you know what I mean
Today 04:27 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post
As of right now, I don't carry. Just been reading about the advantages and disadvantages of the two different ways to carry, I always thought i'd want to conceal carry, hadn't really considered open at all until today, then I remembered tom carries open pretty much always, and I don't really like the way the concealed holsters feel. I dunno, just learning, gathering consensus.
I can talk to you about this anytime
Today 04:23 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeep.chick View Post
...shut up
i work across the street, and I mean like side street from Krispy Kreme. I look at them all day through my office window. In surprised I lost 20 pounds lol
Today 04:22 PM
Turbostixxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKralph View Post
bag and mags showed up yesterday, I'm already ready for the weekend how's everyone doing this fine afternoon?
im waiting in my adjustables still but tracking says tomorrow! YIPEE!!
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