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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-19-2013 09:49 AM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by streamlinedg View Post
Quote -
2 dr. wranglers with 3.21 axle can tow 1,000 lbs and 100 lb of tongue wt.

quote -
2 dr. wranglers with the 3.73 or 4.10 can tow 2,000 lb and 200 lb of tongue wt.

Old story....the owners manual is incorrect. Has been incorrect since the 3.6 came out.

If you look at that chart, you will notice that 3.21's with an auto isn't listed. That is because prior to 2012 (intro of the 5 speed auto and 3.6), there was no such thing as an auto with 3.21's. That chart is from the 2007-2011 models. Jeep still hasn't updated it.

All 2012-13 2 doors can tow 2000 pounds, regardless of tranny or axle ratio.

The whole tow rating, max/tow thing has been a mess with Jeep.
05-19-2013 09:37 AM
Mcrock
Quote:
Originally Posted by streamlinedg View Post

Problem is still the fact the 2013 Brochure on page 4 3rd paragraph over and 1 down.

Quote: TORQUE TO TOW Wrangler Unlimited can confidently tow up to 3,500 lb when properly equipped with the factory installed Trailer To Group

Jeep also defines what makes up the Trailer Tow Group.

Trailer Tow Group
The available Trailer Tow Group includes a Class II receiver hitch, 4-pin adapter, Dana 44 heavy-duty solid rear axle and 3.73:1 axle ratio (deletes rear tow hook, if equipped).

2013 Wrangler Unlimited | Towing Capability and Towing Capacity | Jeep
Unfortunately Jeep messed up language in the brochures and manuals. You really need to dig into the details
And usually any trailer over 2k is going to be equipped with brakes. So a 4 pin harness is useless. It is for lights only. You would need a brake controller (i.e. 7 pin harness) for the brakes. And IMO a WD hitch set up is needed to level out the load. I have 60 springs in the rear and still experience a reverse rake without the WD. My tongue weight is 320#.
But with all of that, the 13 has absolutely no problems. Plenty of power.
05-18-2013 11:17 PM
streamlinedg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcrock View Post
Almost correct
There is the Tow Package and then there's the Max Tow Package
The max has the 3.73s
Problem is still the fact the 2013 Brochure on page 4 3rd paragraph over and 1 down.

Quote: TORQUE TO TOW Wrangler Unlimited can confidently tow up to 3,500 lb when properly equipped with the factory installed Trailer To Group

Jeep also defines what makes up the Trailer Tow Group.

Trailer Tow Group
The available Trailer Tow Group includes a Class II receiver hitch, 4-pin adapter, Dana 44 heavy-duty solid rear axle and 3.73:1 axle ratio (deletes rear tow hook, if equipped).


2013 Wrangler Unlimited | Towing Capability and Towing Capacity | Jeep
05-18-2013 11:02 PM
streamlinedg
2013 Owners says differently on pg 520

Quote -
2 dr. wranglers with 3.21 axle can tow 1,000 lbs and 100 lb of tongue wt.

quote -
2 dr. wranglers with the 3.73 or 4.10 can tow 2,000 lb and 200 lb of tongue wt.
05-18-2013 12:19 PM
Ponderosa
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
There are a bunch of reasons for the low tow ratings. The 2012-13 Wrangler has the same engine (3.6) and 5 speed auto as the 2011-12 Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango. Those can tow 5000 pounds and 6200 pounds respectively. Part of the issue is cooling, weight, center of gravity, wheelbase, brakes, hitch design, ect....

Basically, the engine and tranny can tow far more than the tow ratings, but it does you no good if you can't control or stop it.
Larger trailers all have brakes as state laws require them at as little as 1000 lbs and certainly above 3000. As far as stopping goes, you are much worse off with a 2K trailer with no brakes than 4 K with regardless of the tow vehicle.
05-18-2013 09:31 AM
WatchThis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
I'm not so sure. The Grand Cherokee with a 3.6 is rated for 5000lbs and its wheelbase is shorter than a JKU if I read charts correctly (114 vs 116 on the JK). I pull 4200 with mine and it is no problem - either with performance or handling.
Haha it seams I left a few words out of my post(no big suprise). I ment the wheel base is why the 2 door is rated so much lower then the 4 door.
05-18-2013 08:46 AM
panthermark There are a bunch of reasons for the low tow ratings. The 2012-13 Wrangler has the same engine (3.6) and 5 speed auto as the 2011-12 Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango. Those can tow 5000 pounds and 6200 pounds respectively. Part of the issue is cooling, weight, center of gravity, wheelbase, brakes, hitch design, ect....

Basically, the engine and tranny can tow far more than the tow ratings, but it does you no good if you can't control or stop it.
05-18-2013 08:09 AM
Ponderosa
Quote:
Originally Posted by WatchThis! View Post
I thought we were talking JKs here not Willys. Hell when was the last time a jeep was deigned to haul an ammo trailer?

My jeep has a wheelbase of 119 inches and weighs in at 6200lbs. That is definitely enough to handle the other 2000 pounds or so that it is rated at. I don't remember the exact numbers and don't care enough to look them up since I seldom tow with my jeep. When I do though it handles great.

I can defiantly see how a 4 door that is closer to stock wich means it is almost 1000 pounds lighter and only 3 inches shorter could handle 3500 pounds all day long.Now of course there is no way I would haul any kind of box load with a 2 door in windy conditions since they come in under 100inches. (95/96 something like that).


You are right that wheelbase is why the #s are as low as they are on the ratings but you act like we are talking about 70 inch wheelbases or something.
I'm not so sure. The Grand Cherokee with a 3.6 is rated for 5000lbs and its wheelbase is shorter than a JKU if I read charts correctly (114 vs 116 on the JK). I pull 4200 with mine and it is no problem - either with performance or handling.
05-18-2013 12:30 AM
WatchThis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fredrickson View Post
Hasn't anyone mentioned the obvious reason for low towing weights? It is the first thing you should learn about towing.


Never tow anything over 1,000lbs with a short wheelbase vehicle. Never! Jeeps were never intended to tow anything real with beyond the small ammunition trailer. Wheelbase is everything when towing.

I thought we were talking JKs here not Willys. Hell when was the last time a jeep was deigned to haul an ammo trailer?

My jeep has a wheelbase of 119 inches and weighs in at 6200lbs. That is definitely enough to handle the other 2000 pounds or so that it is rated at. I don't remember the exact numbers and don't care enough to look them up since I seldom tow with my jeep. When I do though it handles great.

I can defiantly see how a 4 door that is closer to stock wich means it is almost 1000 pounds lighter and only 3 inches shorter could handle 3500 pounds all day long.Now of course there is no way I would haul any kind of box load with a 2 door in windy conditions since they come in under 100inches. (95/96 something like that).


You are right that wheelbase is why the #s are as low as they are on the ratings but you act like we are talking about 70 inch wheelbases or something.
05-18-2013 12:06 AM
06 Red Rubicon I've towed plenty of 3,500 lbs trucks with both my 12 2dr and 13 4 door. The only reason the unlimited is rated higher is because of its longer wheelbase. They are just rating 2 doors lower so some dumbass doesn't jackknife his jeep towing 3,500+ in the rain. Max tow is basically just a class 2 tow hitch and a gimmick. My rubicon came with the max tow and of course the anti sway being a 13. I normally pull 4k lb trucks with no sweat on a dolly. A moron that goes by the manual will tell you not to tow more than 3,500 due to his ignorance, but don't worry jeep just doesn't want that same kind of person towing heavy weight incase they have to react to a situation in which 3,500 lbs can be hard to control. Just be cautious and you can tow up to 4,500 lbs safely
05-17-2013 11:47 PM
Mcrock
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fredrickson View Post
Hasn't anyone mentioned the obvious reason for low towing weights? It is the first thing you should learn about towing.


Never tow anything over 1,000lbs with a short wheelbase vehicle. Never! Jeeps were never intended to tow anything real with beyond the small ammunition trailer. Wheelbase is everything when towing.


Wheelbase keeps you tracking straight. Imagine towing a very lite travel trailer that happens to be 3,000lbs but 25' long. Its a windy day on I40 east of Kingman (If you ever get up the hill), you come out of one the cuts made when the highway was built and the wind will push you right off the road... It happens nearly every day in that area and there are windier parts of the country.

If you tow at all with a Jeep it lite and avoid tall box trailers. Towing isn't for Jeeps no matter what the owners manual and the salesman told you...
My 08 & 13 JKU'S don't agree with you. Both have been pulling a 3300# TT with no problems. Of course they are both properly equipped wit WD hitch systems, electric brake controllers, and friction sway control. Not to mention 3.73s
The 08 has about 25K towing miles, often in high wind conditions. Hasn't run off the road yet. The 13 only has IK towing miles, but can barely feel the load behind her.
And your experience with JK Towing is,,,???
05-17-2013 11:31 PM
Dan Fredrickson Hasn't anyone mentioned the obvious reason for low towing weights? It is the first thing you should learn about towing.

Never tow anything over 1,000lbs with a short wheelbase vehicle. Never! Jeeps were never intended to tow anything real with beyond the small ammunition trailer. Wheelbase is everything when towing.

Wheelbase keeps you tracking straight. Imagine towing a very lite travel trailer that happens to be 3,000lbs but 25' long. Its a windy day on I40 east of Kingman (If you ever get up the hill), you come out of one the cuts made when the highway was built and the wind will push you right off the road... It happens nearly every day in that area and there are windier parts of the country.


If you tow at all with a Jeep it lite and avoid tall box trailers. Towing isn't for Jeeps no matter what the owners manual and the salesman told you...
05-17-2013 10:56 PM
Mcrock
Quote:
Originally Posted by streamlinedg View Post
Tow Group Package - Jeep website states that the Tow Group Package includes the 3.73 gear ratio on the 2013 Wrangler Unlimited to allow maximum towing of 3,500 lbs.

2013 Wrangler Unlimited | Towing Capability and Towing Capacity | Jeep
Almost correct
There is the Tow Package and then there's the Max Tow Package
The max has the 3.73s
05-17-2013 10:51 PM
streamlinedg Tow Group Package - Jeep website states that the Tow Group Package includes the 3.73 gear ratio on the 2013 Wrangler Unlimited to allow maximum towing of 3,500 lbs.

2013 Wrangler Unlimited | Towing Capability and Towing Capacity | Jeep
05-17-2013 10:44 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by streamlinedg View Post
Jeep dealerships are not allowed to change the gear ratio on 2013 Jeep Wranglers.

After the dealership installed the 3.73 gears in my Jeep. They couldn't change the program.

I requested help from the forum and was told about a Procal programmer.
The dealership said they were not allowed to use it because it would void my warranty.

When they contacted Chrysler they were told that they had to change the gears back to the 3.21. and they would locate a new Jeep with the 3.73 gears in it.

It took 2 weeks but they found a Sahara fully loaded with the 3.73 gears.
They swapped Jeeps with me even though I had the other Jeep for 2 months and had put almost 3,000 miles on it. The new Jeep only had 100 miles on it.

Jeep obviously knows there is some liability due to the confusion of the Tow Package wording in the 2013 brochure and their web site that states that the Tow package includes the 3.73 gears.

I'm just glad that Jeep/Chrysler did the right thing.
That is a awesome resolution.....congrats.

Yeah, Jeep really screwed up the tow ratings, and still have not fixed it.
05-17-2013 10:43 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieD View Post
FWIW I called Jeep today and told them how confused I am about the towing capabilities of my 2DR 3:21 with tow package.

I gave them my Vin # and they said I could tow up to 2,000 lbs. I have the tow package and with that comes the transmission cooler. So, if your 2DR does not have the tow package then it is rated for 1,000 lbs.
That isn't quite correct.
There is no tow package that comes with a tranny cooler. That goes for all JK's made. 2012's and 2013 auto's all come with external coolers regardless of tow package. All 2 door 2012-13 JK's have 2000 pound tow ratings regardless of gear ratio or tranny.
05-17-2013 09:52 PM
streamlinedg Jeep dealerships are not allowed to change the gear ratio on 2013 Jeep Wranglers.

After the dealership installed the 3.73 gears in my Jeep. They couldn't change the program.

I requested help from the forum and was told about a Procal programmer.
The dealership said they were not allowed to use it because it would void my warranty.

When they contacted Chrysler they were told that they had to change the gears back to the 3.21. and they would locate a new Jeep with the 3.73 gears in it.

It took 2 weeks but they found a Sahara fully loaded with the 3.73 gears.
They swapped Jeeps with me even though I had the other Jeep for 2 months and had put almost 3,000 miles on it. The new Jeep only had 100 miles on it.

Jeep obviously knows there is some liability due to the confusion of the Tow Package wording in the 2013 brochure and their web site that states that the Tow package includes the 3.73 gears.

I'm just glad that Jeep/Chrysler did the right thing.
05-03-2013 11:34 PM
RonnieD FWIW I called Jeep today and told them how confused I am about the towing capabilities of my 2DR 3:21 with tow package.

I gave them my Vin # and they said I could tow up to 2,000 lbs. I have the tow package and with that comes the transmission cooler. So, if your 2DR does not have the tow package then it is rated for 1,000 lbs.
05-03-2013 09:03 PM
jwilson2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by i82much View Post

Uh ... MAX TOW ON MY PARTICULAR JEEP WHICH HAPPENS TO BE A RUBICON IS A WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!
05-02-2013 11:55 PM
i82much
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwilson2598 View Post
Make sure clarify this to be a waste of money on the Rubicon. On my Sahara it was not a waste of money. I wanted 3.73 gears which cost $195. If I had gotten the Quadratec setup you're looking at $100 bucks for that. For another $100 ($395) I got mine with the gears I wanted, hitch/wiring I wanted, installed at the factory, covered by warranty, and built into the price of the Jeep, so not outlay out of pocket afterwards. $100 savings to do it myself wasn't worth it on a $35k Jeep. Now if I had gotten a Rubicon, it might have been a different story since you're basically paying $295 for a hitch and wiring.
Uh ... MAX TOW ON MY PARTICULAR JEEP WHICH HAPPENS TO BE A RUBICON IS A WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!
05-02-2013 10:52 PM
jwilson2598
Quote:
Originally Posted by i82much View Post

Absolutely. Max tow is my only regret. I can't believe I paid whatever the heck I paid for that on a Rubi that came with 3.73's. To add insult to injury I then had to upgrade to 7 pin wiring. MAX TOW IS A WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Make sure clarify this to be a waste of money on the Rubicon. On my Sahara it was not a waste of money. I wanted 3.73 gears which cost $195. If I had gotten the Quadratec setup you're looking at $100 bucks for that. For another $100 ($395) I got mine with the gears I wanted, hitch/wiring I wanted, installed at the factory, covered by warranty, and built into the price of the Jeep, so not outlay out of pocket afterwards. $100 savings to do it myself wasn't worth it on a $35k Jeep. Now if I had gotten a Rubicon, it might have been a different story since you're basically paying $295 for a hitch and wiring.
05-02-2013 06:12 PM
i82much
Quote:
Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
Once you start digging into the Wrangler buying process, you will realize that Max Tow on a 4 door Rubi is one of the biggest rip-offs that Jeep has going.

Jeep charges you the full "Max Tow" price, but the only thing you get is the hitch and harness. You can get that for $90 bucks shipped from Qtec and put it on yourself (or even less from Amazon).
Absolutely. Max tow is my only regret. I can't believe I paid whatever the heck I paid for that on a Rubi that came with 3.73's. To add insult to injury I then had to upgrade to 7 pin wiring. MAX TOW IS A WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!
05-02-2013 05:53 PM
panthermark
Quote:
Originally Posted by bt_osu View Post
If Max tow only adds the 3.73 rear axle over the regular tow pkg, why can you order it on a jeep with a 4.10 rear end?
Once you start digging into the Wrangler buying process, you will realize that Max Tow on a 4 door Rubi is one of the biggest rip-offs that Jeep has going.

Jeep charges you the full "Max Tow" price, but the only thing you get is the hitch and harness. You can get that for $90 bucks shipped from Qtec and put it on yourself (or even less from Amazon).
05-02-2013 05:33 PM
bt_osu If Max tow only adds the 3.73 rear axle over the regular tow pkg, why can you order it on a jeep with a 4.10 rear end?
05-02-2013 05:02 PM
Vroooom its not about the drive-train.
05-02-2013 04:08 PM
panthermark They were correct about the "incorrect" information. Jeep made a mess of the tow ratings. The website is incorrect (in places), the owners manuals is incorrect.....just awful.

But they lied to you about the strength. That is backwards. 3.21's would be "stronger" than 3.73's (less teeth = thicker teeth).

Also, it would not explain how the GC and Durango have greater tow ratings with the same engine and tranny, but on an 3.07 axle ratio. (The answer has a lot more to do with brakes, center of gravity, hitch design, cooling, ect...)

The only reason I have 3.73's is for the tow rating. I fought with Jeep about it, but in the end, I gave up and ordered 3.73's (I originally wanted 3.21's...and would prefer something like 3.55's).
05-02-2013 02:28 PM
streamlinedg The tech at the dealership also told me not to tow more than the 2000 lb with the 3.21. He said that it will cause damage. If Jeep wasn't concern with this I don't think they would have paid to upgrade my Jeep to the 3.73 for free. I purchased my 2013 Sahara in March with all available options. Mine came with the Tow Group Package. I found out that it had the 3.21 gears last week, after reading the forum. Otherwise I would have thought I had the 3.73. Thanks ...
Have Fun... Be Safe...
05-02-2013 01:39 PM
i82much
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjeeper06 View Post
By this logic 5.38 or even higher would be stronger right? It's actually not true. The ring and pinion gets weaker as you go up in gear ratio because they are trying to fit more teeth on the same ring and pinion making each tooth weaker. 3.21 is actually stronger but it just puts extra stress on the engine due to the lower ratio.

It can void the warranty to tow over but that's hard to prove cuz they'll never see what you tow so it would be very hard for them to actually void your warranty for this. The only legitimate reason to not go above the tow capacity is safety.
I agree, the more mechanical advantage you ask of a gear, typically the weaker the gear becomes given a similar form factor. I am really wondering about this "technical engineer" that you spoke with, I seriously doubt Jeep has differential engineers available by phone for customer service issues.
05-02-2013 01:23 PM
jkjeeper06
Quote:
Originally Posted by streamlinedg View Post
It voids your warranty if you tow more than 2000 lbs with the 3.21 ratio on the Wrangler Unlimited (4dr).
I was going keep the 3.21 based on my conversations with the dealership.
When I shared the information I received with Jeep directly. They told me that the information was incorrect and so was the website and 2013 brochure. Jeep was able to look up all the options on my Jeep by the vin number.
A few days later they left a details message on my phone telling me not to exceed the 2000 lbs. because the 3.21 gears could not handle the additional load. The Jeep technical engineer told me that the 3.73 were stronger. So apparently its not the additional half turn of rotation but the physical strength of the gears that gives you the 3,500 lb limit.
Jeep also mailed me the owners manual that has the correct information in it. They also gave me a website that has the correct information.
www.media.chrysler.com
Jeeps customer service number: 800-992-1997
Tech Support called me so I don't have that number.
By this logic 5.38 or even higher would be stronger right? It's actually not true. The ring and pinion gets weaker as you go up in gear ratio because they are trying to fit more teeth on the same ring and pinion making each tooth weaker. 3.21 is actually stronger but it just puts extra stress on the engine due to the lower ratio.

It can void the warranty to tow over but that's hard to prove cuz they'll never see what you tow so it would be very hard for them to actually void your warranty for this. The only legitimate reason to not go above the tow capacity is safety.
05-02-2013 12:46 PM
streamlinedg It voids your warranty if you tow more than 2000 lbs with the 3.21 ratio on the Wrangler Unlimited (4dr).
I was going keep the 3.21 based on my conversations with the dealership.
When I shared the information I received with Jeep directly. They told me that the information was incorrect and so was the website and 2013 brochure. Jeep was able to look up all the options on my Jeep by the vin number.
A few days later they left a details message on my phone telling me not to exceed the 2000 lbs. because the 3.21 gears could not handle the additional load. The Jeep technical engineer told me that the 3.73 were stronger. So apparently its not the additional half turn of rotation but the physical strength of the gears that gives you the 3,500 lb limit.
Jeep also mailed me the owners manual that has the correct information in it. They also gave me a website that has the correct information.
www.media.chrysler.com
Jeeps customer service number: 800-992-1997
Tech Support called me so I don't have that number.
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