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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-25-2013 10:31 PM
dezertdirt I've got th rockhard cage in my LJ. The welds are ugly and the fit, out of the box, was not particularly good up front. Bars that span the width of the jeep were a bit more than 1/2 inch short. After a little mod work, got it to fit nicely up front. The rear angle bars and rear straight bar fit nicely out of the box. I had read that these squeak and creek when you're wheelin. That has not been my experience. So for a bolt in, it's ok, but a bit on the pricey side.

How robust is it? I haven't rolled my jeep and hope never to test the cage. I will say the rockhard has heavy tubing and I can see that the weak point would be the factor bars from the factory hoop to the windshield.
05-25-2013 10:16 PM
SCORE5150 I have the RockHard Sport Cage, my only complaint is the poor ugly welds.
05-25-2013 08:56 PM
toolmantim
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post
Note that the stock HREW cage is fabricated in pieces and bolted together, at least mine in my 2003 is that way.

But more importantly, I have seen the results of welding DOM to the stock hoop, and in both rollovers, the stock hoop folded at the weld, and the weld broke with some of the material from the HREW tube adhered to the DOM tube.

I conclude that most people cannot join these two materials properly. Perhaps some of you can, and I've just never seen such after a rollover.
My 2004 factory HREW "Sport cage" is not bolted together at any point.

I believe you have stated your experiences of those rollovers as highway accidents. I don't think anyone has stated that ANY "sport cage" is going to be approved for NHTSA anymore than the factory equipped B and C pillars are.....and we are discussing a vehicle design that was drawn using paper and pencils.

I also conclude that you are correct in assessing that most people cannot join 2 metals that reach a melting point enough to build a competition cage.

HREW= hot rolled electro welded

DOM= Drawn over mandrel

DOM (just like HREW) starts out as a flat piece of steel and is rolled into a round shape and then welded. Square/rectangular tube is the same way. DOM is then shoved over a large dildo and stretched to certain diameter. During the drawing process the tube does increase it's strength properties, but I would not refer to it as hardening process that requires welding treatment of the metal anymore than HREW.

Chromo cage is what I would refer to as "hardened" type steel that requires advanced welding skill, and pre/post treatment of the tubing.

I don't think anyone is suggesting welding chromo tube to the factory HREW...as they should not.

I also don't think anyone should run KOH using the factory TJ cage, no matter what year.

I also don't think ANYONE should ever weld chi-com steel to north American steel if it concerns safety in any manner.

Not everything is better than the couple pieces of windshield supports that Jeep gives ya...but alot of things are.

People could argue that having 1/2 doors is unsafe for highway rollovers and have a very valid point if they wanted to get scientific, but I think that the welding properties between DOM and HREW would not be as valid as argument.
05-25-2013 08:34 PM
1979WagoneerLTD
Quote:
Originally Posted by hickam View Post

wasn't trying to rip you i agree with what you are saying i'm just tired of every time someone posts something on here or asks a question some people have to make them feel like an idiot and rip there ideas.
x2
05-25-2013 07:25 PM
Hickam
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineda22 View Post
never said i was smarter or better than anybody i was just adding my opinion sorry if you didnt like it bud but since i weld and wrench on things for 12 years and its how i make a living (and the 5 cages ive help build for different rigs) i would like to think i might have a small idea of what im talking about i was just trying to say if your not a confident welder DONT WELD ON YOUR CAGE!
Wasn't trying to rip you i agree with what you are saying I'm just tired of every time someone posts something on here or asks a question some people have to make them feel like an idiot and rip there ideas.
05-25-2013 05:54 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST View Post
Is it safer than not having them? I would certainly say it is. I'm mean really, how "safe" is the stock cage? Are you saying that adding extra support is going to make a stock cage less safe?

The title of this thread is "sport cage" if this was about the design and execution of the safest cage you can build it would have been called roll cage. They are called sport cages because the companies that built can't claim that they will protect in the event of a roll over. Are they safer than the stock cage? I'd say some of them are, at least they add some extra structure.
That's all great and wonderful if you are capable of predicting the future and know that you will never roll your rig in such a manner that the rest of the deficiencies don't come into play.

The common sentiment when it comes to "sport" cages is that something is better than nothing and that is true right up to the point where it isn't.

If you're gonna call it a "sport" cage because you know it won't save your life, then why bother?
05-25-2013 03:22 PM
PHILDABEAST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post

If you don't want to mislead, change your wording. The way you said it says that with a racing background, you approve of that style of cage and by extrapolation, it is safe. It isn't when it comes to cages.

If you want a cage, get one, if you want a fancy CB rack, you already have one.
Is it safer than not having them? I would certainly say it is. I'm mean really, how "safe" is the stock cage? Are you saying that adding extra support is going to make a stock cage less safe?

The title of this thread is "sport cage" if this was about the design and execution of the safest cage you can build it would have been called roll cage. They are called sport cages because the companies that built can't claim that they will protect in the event of a roll over. Are they safer than the stock cage? I'd say some of them are, at least they add some extra structure.
05-25-2013 02:37 PM
s14sh3r
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
I will also bet good money that somewhere somehow there will be some fine print or not so fine print the states simply that if you get hurt or die due to the installation of their product, it is not their fault and you assume your own risks and liability when you accept and use said product.

Oh and by the way, the underlined part?
From Genright's site:
Quote:
No product or service is designed or intended to prevent injury or death. Purchase and/or use of any products from GenRight Off Road implies recognition and acceptance of these terms and conditions by consumer.
05-25-2013 02:07 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hickam View Post
Yeah I'm sure all of the aftermarket cage builders out there like rockhard, genright and even smittybilt are building crap stuff that is going to kill you. Give me a break there has to be a huge liability for them to sell those cages so I'm sure there is some real engineering that goes into them.
I will also bet good money that somewhere somehow there will be some fine print or not so fine print the states simply that if you get hurt or die due to the installation of their product, it is not their fault and you assume your own risks and liability when you accept and use said product.

Oh and by the way, the underlined part?
05-25-2013 02:03 PM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST View Post
Even with the non tube A pillar you do something like this (see square tube next to strap under dash) IMO it adds a lot of strength (it actually ties into my psc rockers) its out of the way, and the dash wasn't buchered to run a piece of tubing through it. Fyi, this was done by the po and as an ex koh style driver I have inspected it closely and I'm confident it is very stout.


Attachment 249162
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST View Post
Since when was this thread about passing KOH tech inspection? Im not running koh and neither was the op. I simply posted a way to reinforce the non tube A-pillars on a SPORT cage. Don't just jump in here and accuse me of misleading anyone about anything, I said it was stout because it is, and that's it.
If you don't want to mislead, change your wording. The way you said it says that with a racing background, you approve of that style of cage and by extrapolation, it is safe. It isn't when it comes to cages.

If you want a cage, get one, if you want a fancy CB rack, you already have one.
05-25-2013 01:00 PM
pineda22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hickam View Post
Yeah I'm sure all of the aftermarket cage builders out there like rockhard, genright and even smittybilt are building crap stuff that is going to kill you. Give me a break there has to be a huge liability for them to sell those cages so I'm sure there is some real engineering that goes into them. But go ahead if you want design your own and burn it in I'm sure your smarter than those manufacturers anyway. I agree with the guy talking about the cages in highway rollovers. If you don't already have a cage or haven't had one why are you telling people what is best. Keep reading everything that way you will have more real world experience than everyone else.
never said i was smarter or better than anybody i was just adding my opinion sorry if you didnt like it bud but since i weld and wrench on things for 12 years and its how i make a living (and the 5 cages ive help build for different rigs) i would like to think i might have a small idea of what im talking about i was just trying to say if your not a confident welder DONT WELD ON YOUR CAGE!
05-25-2013 12:51 PM
PHILDABEAST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post

I live about 10 miles from the guy that does all the KOH tech inspections on every rig that enters. You are welcome to any opinion you have based on your past experiences but I will tell you right now that what you have there wouldn't get past the first 30 seconds of a tech inspection.

While it may work for you just fine, don't mislead others into believing the same for them.
Since when was this thread about passing KOH tech inspection? Im not running koh and neither was the op. I simply posted a way to reinforce the non tube A-pillars on a SPORT cage. Don't just jump in here and accuse me of misleading anyone about anything, I said it was stout because it is, and that's it.
05-25-2013 11:03 AM
Black Magic Brakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILDABEAST View Post
Even with the non tube A pillar you do something like this (see square tube next to strap under dash) IMO it adds a lot of strength (it actually ties into my psc rockers) its out of the way, and the dash wasn't buchered to run a piece of tubing through it. Fyi, this was done by the po and as an ex koh style driver I have inspected it closely and I'm confident it is very stout.


Attachment 249162
I live about 10 miles from the guy that does all the KOH tech inspections on every rig that enters. You are welcome to any opinion you have based on your past experiences but I will tell you right now that what you have there wouldn't get past the first 30 seconds of a tech inspection.

While it may work for you just fine, don't mislead others into believing the same for them.
05-25-2013 09:58 AM
Hickam Yeah I'm sure all of the aftermarket cage builders out there like rockhard, genright and even smittybilt are building crap stuff that is going to kill you. Give me a break there has to be a huge liability for them to sell those cages so I'm sure there is some real engineering that goes into them. But go ahead if you want design your own and burn it in I'm sure your smarter than those manufacturers anyway. I agree with the guy talking about the cages in highway rollovers. If you don't already have a cage or haven't had one why are you telling people what is best. Keep reading everything that way you will have more real world experience than everyone else.
05-24-2013 06:57 PM
pineda22
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post
Note that the stock HREW cage is fabricated in pieces and bolted together, at least mine in my 2003 is that way.

But more importantly, I have seen the results of welding DOM to the stock hoop, and in both rollovers, the stock hoop folded at the weld, and the weld broke with some of the material from the HREW tube adhered to the DOM tube.

I conclude that most people cannot join these two materials properly. Perhaps some of you can, and I've just never seen such after a rollover.
i would have to agree with you sir!....at least to an extent it would be possable to weld the 2 materials but would require heating of the hardened steel and multiple welds with a better welder than most ppl have at home. that being said every cage i have helped with or been arround has had multiple beads run at each connection usually a triple pass but again not somethin a shade tree mechanic should undertake
05-24-2013 05:47 PM
KaiserJeep Note that the stock HREW cage is fabricated in pieces and bolted together, at least mine in my 2003 is that way.

But more importantly, I have seen the results of welding DOM to the stock hoop, and in both rollovers, the stock hoop folded at the weld, and the weld broke with some of the material from the HREW tube adhered to the DOM tube.

I conclude that most people cannot join these two materials properly. Perhaps some of you can, and I've just never seen such after a rollover.
05-15-2013 07:24 PM
geiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmantim View Post
where did you get information that they are heat treated tubes??
The stock B and C pillar tubes are .120" HREW tubing. The 'H' in HREW stands for 'Hot', but other than that I have no idea what, if any, actual heat treating for strength the stock tubes see.

Most anyone who builds cages will use DOM instead of HREW; a quick Google search of "DOM vs HREW" will provide you with plenty of reading material. DOM has many advantages over HREW for roll cage building, including a much better strength to weight ratio.

That being said, if you're building a cage for your TJ, adding onto the stock HREW parts isn't a bad thing; at least in my opinion. If I was building from scratch I'd most definitely use all DOM, but the stock HREW can be a decent start provided your additions are done properly.
05-15-2013 05:04 PM
JeepandMud I'm looking at a GenRight cage, expensive yep, but it would give me a more sense of mind. I was looking at RockHard but been hearing how their cage may give in during a roll over. I don't know. Just what I've been hearing, though not sure if it's true or not.
05-15-2013 04:57 PM
toolmantim
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post

My conclusion was that the stock cage is fabbed and then heat-treated,
where did you get information that they are heat treated tubes??
05-14-2013 07:02 PM
Mcatt If I may, look at drag racing or any other sport where cages are required, see any bolt ins?? Nope. Not sure where BTF is but can I suggest SW race cars they're in PA and shipping would be less than from the west coast. If you're gonna get real serious about a real cage there are places that make them. Chromemoly is the strongest but unless you have a TIG welder and are good with it you're stuck with mild steel. Check out SW and others some of them offer basic kits that you can add to depending on what you want. A real cage should be attached to the frame and if built correctly should end up mostly OK at the bottom of the mountain.
05-14-2013 06:56 PM
Moabrubi
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post

Bad - Stock Cage plus weld-on additions.

Good - Stock cage, unmodified.

Better - Stock cage plus bolt-on additions.
05-14-2013 06:50 PM
UnlimitedLJ04 here's what I did....this thread has a bunch of cages ideas/pics...
*Official* Cage idea/pic/discussion thread - Page 19 - JeepForum.com
05-14-2013 06:45 PM
geiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHEELING.
You're right, and nowhere did I say this was just about wheeling and nothing else. Again, you're making assumptions and generalizations.

When a cage goes in my TJ, it will be built as properly for any situation as I can make it, whether that be from trouble on the street or on the trail. And even still, I'll drive as if I have no cage, which is a suggestion I'd give to anyone.

But again, there is no kit I could recommend with good conscience. Hopefully the OP educates himself and makes a good decision, as an improper cage is something that could end up seriously hurting whoever rides with him. The last thing you want is the thing meant to protect you bending over and severing a leg or worse.
05-14-2013 05:10 PM
KaiserJeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by geiman View Post
Unfortunately you're making too many generalizations. Given that we don't know where the OP wheels and what he likes to do, I'm not sure how you can know this.

There are many places where I frequent that a mistake could cause you to end up rolling down a very steep hillside, or essentially down the mountain for a few hundred yards or more.

Sure that's worst case scenario, but to say if you don't see the highway with your rig almost any cage will do is simply terrible advice.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHEELING. I know that's what you think it's about, but you are wrong. If you drive your Jeep on the road, at least 95% of the miles and 95% of the rollovers happen on the road. Sure, you can postulate a situation where a Jeep could roll thousands of feet downhill - but that is not what typically happens and even the strongest cage could fail in such a situation. What happens most often is a simple flop on the side, followed by a complete rollover, followed by a double rollover, etc.

You plan for and build for what is the most likely accident - on the road. It would be foolish to plan for the least likely accident, which is rolling all the way down the mountain - because you are unlikely to survive such an accident with the best cage that you could buy.
05-14-2013 04:07 PM
TJDave I have a bolt on cage. Someone on these forums suggested if a bolt on was your only option, to get the Or-Fab. It replaces the thin weak windshield support bars. There is no Or-Fab offering for the rear, so I also took their suggestion of the Rockhard rear cage. Orfab/Rockhard Hybrid! Everything fit well. Door surrounds and factory soft top work just like they did on the stock cage.

Sure I would love to rip the whole stock cage out and have a custom full welded cage built. It's just not an option for me right now.
05-14-2013 03:50 PM
PHILDABEAST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason1348 View Post
I do like the non tube pillars upfront thats what I will be going with im not rock crawling ohio a ll deep ruts and mud the bft I like but really like to have a rear spreader bar
Even with the non tube A pillar you do something like this (see square tube next to strap under dash) IMO it adds a lot of strength (it actually ties into my psc rockers) its out of the way, and the dash wasn't buchered to run a piece of tubing through it. Fyi, this was done by the po and as an ex koh style driver I have inspected it closely and I'm confident it is very stout.


Attachment 249162
05-14-2013 02:56 PM
JPi4.0 I have the rock hard cage. It is what it is. I rolled onto my side. I only Had to replace door skins. Everything else was square and tight. I think it helped. Multiple rollover the rock hard will only be as strong as the weakest point in the entire system.
05-14-2013 02:46 PM
geiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post

In reality, most trail rollovers happen at low speed and for a short distance, like two complete rolls or less.
Unfortunately you're making too many generalizations. Given that we don't know where the OP wheels and what he likes to do, I'm not sure how you can know this.

There are many places where I frequent that a mistake could cause you to end up rolling down a very steep hillside, or essentially down the mountain for a few hundred yards or more.

Sure that's worst case scenario, but to say if you don't see the highway with your rig almost any cage will do is simply terrible advice.
05-14-2013 02:34 PM
KaiserJeep Personally I bought a bolt-in cage. This is after I observed the effects of a rollover on a couple of weld-in cages. Both such cages broke at the point where the stock cage was welded to the added pieces, and there was a weld bead attached to the add-on tubing, and a gouge in the stock hoop which folded at the point of the weld, and broke the weld. I also saw three more rollovers on Jeeps with just the stock cage.

My conclusion was that the stock cage is fabbed and then heat-treated, and welding dissimilar materials to it excessively weakens the cage. I would rate cage strength as follows:

Bad - Stock Cage plus weld-on additions.

Good - Stock cage, unmodified.

Better - Stock cage plus bolt-on additions.

Best - Complete weld in cage, where the stock cage is cut off and all new cage with gussets and triangulated members is installed and tied to the frame in a minimum of four places.

All five of the rollovers I have examined occurred on the highway. The two welded cages I am talking about failed in highway rollovers at speed. If you never drive at highway speed, as in you trailer your Jeep everywhere, then almost any cage will do.

In reality, most trail rollovers happen at low speed and for a short distance, like two complete rolls or less. It is the highway where most Jeeps are subjected to lethal force and multiple rollover scenarios.

The quality of the welds matters a lot. The best cages are fabbed in shops with all the right bending and notching tools, a powerfull 220v welding rig, and most importantly: a very good welder.

The worst cages are those boogered up by somebody with a cheap 110v wire-fed welder in their driveway.
05-14-2013 12:26 PM
Jason1348 I do like the non tube pillars upfront thats what I will be going with im not rock crawling ohio a ll deep ruts and mud the bft I like but really like to have a rear spreader bar
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