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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-12-2013 11:32 PM
Walkingstick
Quote:
Originally Posted by aelwero View Post

came across my facebook today... kinda summed up my take on this thread in one picture...
So true. Ben is the man.
He's said so many things that have come true today.
06-12-2013 11:25 PM
aelwero

came across my facebook today... kinda summed up my take on this thread in one picture...
06-08-2013 09:08 PM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsbad0331 View Post
I just wonder how many people that argue so strongly for the preservation of their rights actually spend an equal amount of time actually doing something about it...
Luckily for me, a good number of the weapons that I have are legally unregistered, so I have no fear of someone coming to get what they dont know I have or that they cannot find... If it gets to the point that they come looking for the few they may know about, I have an exit strategy for that also!
I just dont care to spend my time worrying about something that I really have no control over. My family and I live a good life, we enjoy or time together doing the things that we enjoy (such a trail riding, surfing, camping, shooting, skiing, traveling the world, etc.)
Dont bother asking me any more questions, or making any more assumptions about me... I will respect your opinion and leave it at that.
Interesting: You have no fear of your guns being taken because you have hidden 'legally unregistered' guns, but have nothing to fear from the govt tapping your phone, computer, email, following you, or surveiling you because you are law abiding. I guess that is as close to a contradiction of logic as you will actually admit to. Even so, I have a problem with the unconstitutional pissing away of our nations wealth while spending 1.5 trillion $ a year beyond our means. Even if it did work, which it doesn't.

I haven't made any assumptions, only conclusions based on available context. I'll keep them to myself.

We are all entiltled to our opinions, you yours and I mine. The 4th isn't exactly a head scratcher, though - there is not much opinion room on this one. Even the author of the Patriot Act said it is an abuse of power, and he wrote the words being used to justify it.

I do spend ample time talking to peers, friends, neighbors, politicians at all levels, political groups, etc in order to ensure We the People have an input into our government. I can't speak for others. The problem is those lobbyists for companies like Carlisle Group have much deeper pockets, due in large part to their generous no-bid contracts awarded over the last 12 years, primarily overseas. For instance, Bamers may have drawn our Afghani presence down to roughly 65,000 troops, but he also increased 'private contract security' (i.e. Kraft International, Blackwater, etc) to over 108,000. Once the mil-ind complex starts buying Lindsey Grahams and John Mccains, they have to be voted out before we can again have due representation of our citizenry. Yes, I am very vocal about the issues facing our Nation. Btw, these security forces are very similar to those used in the first Iraq war by the US - their employer charges hundreds per hour to John Q Taxpayer, but doesn't pay their goons that. They are for profit armies, make no mistake about it. War is their industry, and peace is their enemy.

No questions in there; have a nice day, and happy jeeping.
Cheers =)
06-08-2013 08:22 PM
Walkingstick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsbad0331 View Post
I just wonder how many people that argue so strongly for the preservation of their rights actually spend an equal amount of time actually doing something about it...
Luckily for me, a good number of the weapons that I have are legally unregistered, so I have no fear of someone coming to get what they dont know I have or that they cannot find... If it gets to the point that they come looking for the few they may know about, I have an exit strategy for that also!
I just dont care to spend my time worrying about something that I really have no control over. My family and I live a good life, we enjoy or time together doing the things that we enjoy (such a trail riding, surfing, camping, shooting, skiing, traveling the world, etc.)
Dont bother asking me any more questions, or making any more assumptions about me... I will respect your opinion and leave it at that.
When you think it is time to bury them, it's time to dig em up. That's all I gotta say. Other than that, a lot of people have a wavering line in the sand, so to speak.
06-08-2013 08:09 PM
Carlsbad0331 I just wonder how many people that argue so strongly for the preservation of their rights actually spend an equal amount of time actually doing something about it...
Luckily for me, a good number of the weapons that I have are legally unregistered, so I have no fear of someone coming to get what they dont know I have or that they cannot find... If it gets to the point that they come looking for the few they may know about, I have an exit strategy for that also!
I just dont care to spend my time worrying about something that I really have no control over. My family and I live a good life, we enjoy or time together doing the things that we enjoy (such a trail riding, surfing, camping, shooting, skiing, traveling the world, etc.)
Dont bother asking me any more questions, or making any more assumptions about me... I will respect your opinion and leave it at that.
06-08-2013 05:45 PM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by aelwero View Post
....
They just aren't that organized...
Hence the massive waste of money. Boston still happened, huh? Sandy Hook, Aurora, Ft Hood, Seattle, Santa Monica, Virginia Tech, etc, etc, etc all happened. Even with these awesome protector class citizens Protecting and Observing. But now every child born in America is 50,000$ in debt, because we made it so safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsyman View Post
Gee golly gosh Blue Ridge...we're just all so lucky to have YOU here to set us all on the straight and narrow. Thank goodness you are such an expert on the Constitution...
I'd be happy to discuss whichever part of the 4th amendment you are having trouble with. Where, exactly, is the confusion? I can even point you to more scholarly individuals who can provide ample case law to reinforce our current interpritations. I didn't just decide this one morning there, hoss.
06-08-2013 03:27 PM
Walkingstick
Quote:
Originally Posted by aelwero View Post

Woodlawn? I saw the movie

Again, what exactly would they do with such a database? Not saying its right to do it, but I think a lot of folks overestimate these government facilities... I've seen firsthand how overestimated the military ones are.

They just aren't that organized...
No. Not "woodlawn." Actually bother to look up the facility I am talking about.
Military and Gov facilities are different animals.
You can store A Ton of data rather easily.
06-08-2013 03:15 PM
aelwero
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingstick View Post

You would be surprised. The NSA is building/built a new Data storage facility in Utah.
I suggest you look it up.
Woodlawn? I saw the movie

Again, what exactly would they do with such a database? Not saying its right to do it, but I think a lot of folks overestimate these government facilities... I've seen firsthand how overestimated the military ones are.

They just aren't that organized...
06-08-2013 03:12 PM
aelwero
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsyman View Post
Gee golly gosh Blue Ridge...we're just all so lucky to have YOU here to set us all on the straight and narrow. Thank goodness you are such an expert on the Constitution...
If your 4th amendment rights mean so little, why not also relinquish your 1st amendment rights...
06-08-2013 03:06 PM
Walkingstick
Quote:
Originally Posted by aelwero View Post
I just googled "how to make a bomb big enough to blow up the US Capitol Building using common household items". Got the stopwatch going to see how long it takes before the ninjas show up.

Personally, I don't believe there is anywhere near enough organization in the government to even be able to store that much data, much less sort out anything useful... and even if they figure that out, they won't share any useful data with anyone who could actually act on it. Which government action was it that led folks to think they are planning to disarm the public and track 300 million peoples' search histories, phone calls, and mobile data usage? Was it the hope and change we all have coming out our ears? the transparency? the 2.5 million jobs we saved/created? Oooooh I know, it's all those "shovel ready" infrastructure projects popping up all over the country. Yeah man, it's booming

Of course, if I'm wrong, and the ninjas show up, it was nice knowing you all

{serious} This is totally setting aside the 4th amendment (essential liberty) in the name of fighting terrorists (personal security), and I won't be the lest bit surprised if we wind up holding a big bag of poo... (having neither) {/serious}
You would be surprised. The NSA is building/built a new Data storage facility in Utah.
I suggest you look it up.
06-08-2013 03:04 PM
Walkingstick
Quote:
Originally Posted by damndirtydog View Post

Then what's the answer? How do we get to the end game? Do we take up arms against the government like Libya, like Syria? And wind up with a corrupt government that is no better than the last?
Government going to do what the governments been doing since 1776, in the open or covertly for our "National Security".

What do we need? Definitly more checks and balances. But, can't do that. That would mean bigger government larger deficit and a field day for Fox news.
Better elected officials....yes. But they're great on the campaign trail, and then fall comfortably into the same good Ol' Boy system of government as the last schmuck that was voted out, and that is the circle of life.
So what can every day "Joe Jeepster" do besides, write your congressman and be an educated voter? And, aside form amassing an arsonal of guns and ammunition?
I refer to Benjamin Franklin's quote on government. He knew that, eventually, the Government would become corrupt and thus have to be overthrown... If all else failed. Unfortunately, we are a tipping point and to be honest we may need to vigorously defend ourselves sooner or later.
06-08-2013 02:20 PM
Pennsyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
Well don't worry, I'll support your Rights.

Btw, would you give up your guns to prevent shootings like those in Santa Monica? Or is that too far and would not work, anyway? If everyone bought healthcare, we would all be healthier and have lower bills, just like with driving - do you agree with that mandate? I understand your hesitation to answer, as it exposes the hypocrisy in your arguement. As someone recently told me, we cannot pick and choose the parts to it that we like - we support it, or we don't.

I do not find it the least bit surprising that those employed by the military industrial complex have no problem with its expansion, even when it obviously directly violates a simple english amendment. Because then THEY may be paid 85-100k in tax money a year to 'analyze' innocent Americans activities, or at least sell some gizmos to those who are.

Anybody else remember that thread we had about military not obeying orders because they were unconstitutional where I was lambasted for the mere suggestion they would obey them?
Gee golly gosh Blue Ridge...we're just all so lucky to have YOU here to set us all on the straight and narrow. Thank goodness you are such an expert on the Constitution...
06-08-2013 02:00 PM
BlueRidgeYJ Well don't worry, I'll support your Rights.

Btw, would you give up your guns to prevent shootings like those in Santa Monica? Or is that too far and would not work, anyway? If everyone bought healthcare, we would all be healthier and have lower bills, just like with driving - do you agree with that mandate? I understand your hesitation to answer, as it exposes the hypocrisy in your arguement. As someone recently told me, we cannot pick and choose the parts to it that we like - we support it, or we don't.

I do not find it the least bit surprising that those employed by the military industrial complex have no problem with its expansion, even when it obviously directly violates a simple english amendment. Because then THEY may be paid 85-100k in tax money a year to 'analyze' innocent Americans activities, or at least sell some gizmos to those who are.

Anybody else remember that thread we had about military not obeying orders because they were unconstitutional where I was lambasted for the mere suggestion they would obey them?
06-08-2013 11:53 AM
Carlsbad0331 Yes, I did swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States. And I shed blood (multiple times) for this country. And I would do it all over again, and still work in an industry that has ties to the government..
BUT, it is obvious that the constitution is interpreted differently by different people. I do not see this (and this is NOT new news, this was discussed well over a year ago) as a violation of my rights. If having some super computer scanning phone records (not actual phone calls) is going to avert some catastrophic event on American soil, then so be it. If putting video cameras on every street corner is going to aid in the capture and conviction of criminals, so be it... I am not doing anything wrong and I do not fear that which does not involve me.
06-08-2013 07:32 AM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titaness View Post
Thanks blue ridge ! I think I misinterpreted the 4th ammendment. As apparently do the powers that be. I guess its to be interpreted? Privacy is an implied right? Is that why Internet and cell phone information may not fall under that right. Interesting.
Correct, the government cannot legally investigate you, like you are a criminal, unless a govt agent under 'Oath or affirmation' declares to a judge your individual case and the judge agrees there is likely criminal involvement. This includes police asking for your papers, and is also why roadblocks are unconstitutional. Phone tapping is WAY beyond this (and our judges have long ago decided that).

The stroke of a pen may make your Rights disappear, but you still have them. They are just being deprived by your federal officials. Or in a word, that's tyranny. It is illegal to pass bills violating Rights, like the patriot act.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsbad0331 View Post
Isnt this what the NSA is tasked to do? My personal feeling is that since I am not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to fear from the NSA, the TSA, the FBI, the DEA or the CIA...
Those who ARE doing something wrong, have something to fear... and I am good with that!
Wtf, really? Didn't you swear an oath to uphold the US Constitution? And you think this is 'what they are tasked to do', despite its obvious violation of the United States Bill of Rights?

I, too, have no worries about my non-existant criminal involvement, but that doesn't mean I will sacrifice my rights, or the rights of others, to appease a tyrannical government. Do you have the same disdain for the Second Amendment that you do for the fourth? Would you be OK giving up all firearms because you have 'nothing to fear' and our big bad army will keep your RIGHTS safe and protected, as claimed? Somehow I doubt you would.

Of course, under the post 9/11 police state legislation and directives, this course of discussion, redress of grievence, is 'illegal'. Unconstitutionally so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damndirtydog View Post

Well for question #1 not really
#2 not really
#3 not if they can be apprehended and brought to trial.
If hiding out in a rogue state like a ferrett and enough evidence of subversive acts toward the USA and it's citizens, but can't be apprehended, gonna have to go with, BOMBS AWAY on that one.
I don't disagree with you on just about all points, but I really don't think there's much that the everyday Schmo is going to be able to do regarding spying and covert government surveillance on the masses in the name of national security.
I still think that if you're doing nothing wrong, then you got nothing to worry about. Things have change since 1776, and tactics have to change. When the next 9/11 happens people are going to say OMG how could our government not have known something like that was going to happen!! Because the only tool we've allowed our homeland security to have is a magnifying glass like Sherlock Homes.
I'd kind of like to know how the families of the dead and the hundred or so of victims that had their arms and legs blown off in Boston feel.
I say yea if it would have saved their loved ones then and mine and yours in the future, I'll send the friggin CIA my damn phone bill.
Well I am glad you don't actually advocate spying, tyranny, or murder. That's good.

What about the thousands that died giving your rights legal recognition? Should we forget what they did for us just because it is a scary world? Maybe we should stop pissing off so many nations, including our own, if we want our children to not get blown up. The only thing different between now and 1789 is the mindset of our population.
06-08-2013 06:38 AM
Titaness Thanks blue ridge ! I think I misinterpreted the 4th ammendment. As apparently do the powers that be. I guess its to be interpreted? Privacy is an implied right? Is that why Internet and cell phone information may not fall under that right. Interesting.
06-08-2013 12:06 AM
Carlsbad0331 Isnt this what the NSA is tasked to do? My personal feeling is that since I am not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to fear from the NSA, the TSA, the FBI, the DEA or the CIA...
Those who ARE doing something wrong, have something to fear... and I am good with that!
06-07-2013 09:31 PM
aelwero
Quote:
Originally Posted by damndirtydog View Post
When the next 9/11 happens people are going to say OMG how could our government not have known something like that was going to happen!! Because the only tool we've allowed our homeland security to have is a magnifying glass like Sherlock Homes.
so... you put 100 people in a room. You tell 2 guys they're in charge.

What you're saying is that those 2 guys can search everyone in the room, can monitor all their phone calls, can read any written notes they send to each other, all in the off chance one of them plans to commit a crime at some point...

I think it's perfectly acceptable for the government not to have known about 9/11 before hand, and not to know about the next "needle in a haystack" fiasco some tard thinks up. The only way to have prior knowledge of the next 9/11 type event is for them to have their fingers and eyes into everything everywhere, and to toss the 4th amendment, and by proxy, the entire foundation of our Country, out the window.

You're advocating the removal of an essential liberty for the sake of personal safety, and you're on track to lose both your liberty AND your personal safety.

I understand that people should be nice upstanding folks and not have anything to hide and not be worried, but in that spirit, we are collectively allowing the very basics of our Constitution and Bill of Rights to be "creatively reinterpreted" into no longer really existing.

It's like boiling a frog... drop it in hot water and it jumps out... draft an amendment suspending one of the bill of rights and there would be uproar. Put a frog in cold water and gradually heat it and it sits there and boils to death without moving... draft the Patriot Act, and then "interpret" it to slowly remove one of the bill of rights, and people say "you shouldn't have anything to hide" until there no longer IS anywhere to hide, and the ninjas come for you....
06-07-2013 08:58 PM
damndirtydog
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
Yes, we should contact all our reps to ensure they know how we feel. We must also peacefully assemble for redress of grievence, when needed.

Just so we are clear, you are ok with wastefull police state spending, direct violations of constitutional amendments, and assasination of Americans without due process of law?
Well for question #1 not really
#2 not really
#3 not if they can be apprehended and brought to trial.
If hiding out in a rogue state like a ferrett and enough evidence of subversive acts toward the USA and it's citizens, but can't be apprehended, gonna have to go with, BOMBS AWAY on that one.
I don't disagree with you on just about all points, but I really don't think there's much that the everyday Schmo is going to be able to do regarding spying and covert government surveillance on the masses in the name of national security.
I still think that if you're doing nothing wrong, then you got nothing to worry about. Things have change since 1776, and tactics have to change. When the next 9/11 happens people are going to say OMG how could our government not have known something like that was going to happen!! Because the only tool we've allowed our homeland security to have is a magnifying glass like Sherlock Homes.
I'd kind of like to know how the families of the dead and the hundred or so of victims that had their arms and legs blown off in Boston feel.
I say yea if it would have saved their loved ones then and mine and yours in the future, I'll send the friggin CIA my damn phone bill.
06-07-2013 07:45 PM
aelwero I just googled "how to make a bomb big enough to blow up the US Capitol Building using common household items". Got the stopwatch going to see how long it takes before the ninjas show up.

Personally, I don't believe there is anywhere near enough organization in the government to even be able to store that much data, much less sort out anything useful... and even if they figure that out, they won't share any useful data with anyone who could actually act on it. Which government action was it that led folks to think they are planning to disarm the public and track 300 million peoples' search histories, phone calls, and mobile data usage? Was it the hope and change we all have coming out our ears? the transparency? the 2.5 million jobs we saved/created? Oooooh I know, it's all those "shovel ready" infrastructure projects popping up all over the country. Yeah man, it's booming

Of course, if I'm wrong, and the ninjas show up, it was nice knowing you all

{serious} This is totally setting aside the 4th amendment (essential liberty) in the name of fighting terrorists (personal security), and I won't be the lest bit surprised if we wind up holding a big bag of poo... (having neither) {/serious}
06-07-2013 06:57 PM
1jeeplvr They are going to be very bored if they watch me.Home,work,home,work,home,work on Jeep,home.
06-07-2013 06:41 PM
BlueRidgeYJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by damndirtydog View Post

Then what's the answer? How do we get to the end game? Do we take up arms against the government like Libya, like Syria? And wind up with a corrupt government that is no better than the last?
Government going to do what the governments been doing since 1776, in the open or covertly for our "National Security".

What do we need? Definitly more checks and balances. But, can't do that. That would mean bigger government larger deficit and a field day for Fox news.
Better elected officials....yes. But they're great on the campaign trail, and then fall comfortably into the same good Ol' Boy system of government as the last schmuck that was voted out, and that is the circle of life.
So what can every day "Joe Jeepster" do besides, write your congressman and be an educated voter? And, aside form amassing an arsonal of guns and ammunition?
Yes, we should contact all our reps to ensure they know how we feel. We must also peacefully assemble for redress of grievence, when needed.

Just so we are clear, you are ok with wastefull police state spending, direct violations of constitutional amendments, and assasination of Americans without due process of law?
06-07-2013 06:19 PM
damndirtydog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainynite View Post
Does this mean I can't be hooch anymore in my backyard?
Best pay your taxes on all that hooch your making.
Eventhough Koosharem can be mistaken as fly dump on a map, I'm sure the IRS and CIA have every available satellite zoomed in on your backyard.
Watch out for them drones Rainynite!
06-07-2013 05:30 PM
CrazyBull Does this mean I can't be hooch anymore in my backyard?
06-07-2013 05:30 PM
damndirtydog
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
Interesting responses. Personally, I believe the Constitution still means something, I believe I was created with inalienable Rights, and I believe to circumvent the Constitution is to spit in the grave of every service member of the armed forces, ever, particularly those that gave their lives to give you recognition of those Rights. Even if it doesn't make me friends.

Go ahead and trade your essential liberty for temporary safety, see how it works out for ya. After all, history does repeat itself.
Then what's the answer? How do we get to the end game? Do we take up arms against the government like Libya, like Syria? And wind up with a corrupt government that is no better than the last?
Government going to do what the governments been doing since 1776, in the open or covertly for our "National Security".

What do we need? Definitly more checks and balances. But, can't do that. That would mean bigger government larger deficit and a field day for Fox news.
Better elected officials....yes. But they're great on the campaign trail, and then fall comfortably into the same good Ol' Boy system of government as the last schmuck that was voted out, and that is the circle of life.
So what can every day "Joe Jeepster" do besides, write your congressman and be an educated voter? And, aside form amassing an arsonal of guns and ammunition?
06-07-2013 05:28 PM
BlueRidgeYJ "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment, United States Constitution

It means a Judge has to decide there is 'probably cause' for a search to occur. There is no reason to suspect EVERY Verizon customer is a threat to national security. There is no reason to suspect EVERY internet user is a terrorist.

Very simply put: 1) you support the government and its usurpation of authority for police state monitoring, or 2) you support the United States Constitution. Those are the only choices here, folks. You CANNOT support both, that is like being a Catholic priest that performs abortions in his off time.
06-07-2013 05:06 PM
Titaness I am not sure the constitution specifies a right to privacy nor any amendment. Please excuse me if I am wrong as English is not my first language and at times I still miss things when reading. I do think , however, that amendments possibly could be made to include Internet privacy. Perhaps someone could direct me to the right section. It is always up to interpretation as the the ammendments is a living and evolving document.

I see things like Internet , drivers licenses, cell phones etc as things you have THE RIGHT to use or NOT use as a "right" . Along with that choice comes the understanding that my privacy is not private. Kind of like driving. Driving is a'Privilege you have the right to choose to pursue or not to pursue . The choice is your "right". Choosing that Privilege entails many things including your personal information.

That being said, I Mentioned in another thread having lived under a dictator and what life is like never being sure of your liberties. I found the patriot act confusing . To protect my rights.....
06-07-2013 04:26 PM
whetstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wranglin4Life View Post
While this may be an invasion of privacy, think about why they are doing it. They are going about to track terrorist plots and prevent attacks or so they say.

I for one could care less because I have nothing to hide. I do agree its an invasion of privacy but complaining about it and getting all worked up about isnt going to solve anything. Its just going to make people not want to be around you because all you do is complain about politics.

I work with a guy that cant shut up about this and that and how 1 is better than the other. I just walk away and say I dont care every time because I have realized it doesnt matter what I think, if the government wants to do it there gonna do it one way or the other. With or without or approval.
Are you saying that you think it's ok for our government to completely ignore our personal liberties, and bypass the constitution?
06-07-2013 04:16 PM
BlueRidgeYJ Interesting responses. Personally, I believe the Constitution still means something, I believe I was created with inalienable Rights, and I believe to circumvent the Constitution is to spit in the grave of every service member of the armed forces, ever, particularly those that gave their lives to give you recognition of those Rights. Even if it doesn't make me friends.

Go ahead and trade your essential liberty for temporary safety, see how it works out for ya. After all, history does repeat itself.
06-07-2013 12:38 PM
Wranglin4Life While this may be an invasion of privacy, think about why they are doing it. They are going about to track terrorist plots and prevent attacks or so they say.

I for one could care less because I have nothing to hide. I do agree its an invasion of privacy but complaining about it and getting all worked up about isnt going to solve anything. Its just going to make people not want to be around you because all you do is complain about politics.

I work with a guy that cant shut up about this and that and how 1 is better than the other. I just walk away and say I dont care every time because I have realized it doesnt matter what I think, if the government wants to do it there gonna do it one way or the other. With or without or approval.
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